GDG- army logistics and supply

dherko at kc.rr.com dherko at kc.rr.com
Tue Jan 31 10:21:50 CST 2012


Fort Leavenworth Command and General Staff College has a few pamphlets on railroads and the overland campaign


---- Larry Tagg <larryrtagg at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I need to find out about the logistics and supply for both armies in the East during the Civil War.  Can anybody suggest a good book on the subject?
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: "gettysburg-request at arthes.com" <gettysburg-request at arthes.com>
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:00 AM
> Subject: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 28
>  
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (dherko at kc.rr.com)
>    2. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Andy Mills)
>    3. Re:  Memoir of post-battle visits to Gettysburg (Matt Diestel)
>    4. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (Andy Mills)
>    5. Re:  A little clarification please. (John Lawrence)
>    6. Re:  A little clarification please. (John Lawrence)
>    7. Re:  A little clarification please. (John Lawrence)
>    8. Re:  A little clarification please. (TR) (John Lawrence)
>    9. Re:  "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg" (joadx1 at netscape.net)
>   10.  ISusquehanna River (128thpa at comcast.net)
>   11. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Andy Mills)
>   12. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Lawrence)
>   13. Re:  ISusquehanna River (128thpa at comcast.net)
>   14. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Andy Mills)
>   15. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Dave Glorioso)
>   16. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Jack Lawrence)
>   17. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Andy Mills)
>   18. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (keith mackenzie)
>   19. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Jack Lawrence)
>   20. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (Tom)
>   21. Re:  A little clarification please. (George Connell)
>   22. Re:  "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg" (George Connell)
>   23. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (Tom)
>   24. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (George Connell)
>   25. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (George Connell)
>   26. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (George Connell)
>   27. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   28. Re:  75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938 (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   29. Re:  75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938 (Terry Brasko)
>   30.  An Interesting Experience (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   31. Re:  William Addleman of the Bucktails (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   32. Re:  75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938 (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   33. Re:  An Interesting Experience (John Grim)
>   34. Re:  An Interesting Experience (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   35. Re:  An Interesting Experience (John Grim)
>   36. Re:  An Interesting Experience (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   37. Re:  An Interesting Experience (John Grim)
>   38. Re:  An Interesting Experience (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   39. Re:  An Interesting Experience (John Grim)
>   40. Re:  An Interesting Experience (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   41. Re:  An Interesting Experience (John Grim)
>   42. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (Jack Lawrence)
>   43. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   44. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (Jack Lawrence)
>   45. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   46. Re:  Al Mackey's Question (ATMackeyJr at aol.com)
>   47. Re:  (no subject) (Richard Garrison)
>   48.  FW: 75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938 (Tom Ryan)
>   49. Re:  Memoir of post-battle visits to Gettysburg (Tom Ryan)
>   50. Re:  A little clarification please. (John Lawrence)
>   51. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Lawrence)
>   52. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Lawrence)
>   53. Re:  "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg" (John Lawrence)
>   54. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Lawrence)
>   55. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Lawrence)
>   56. Re:  "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg" (George Connell)
>   57. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (George Connell)
>   58. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   59. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (George Connell)
>   60. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (John Grim)
>   61. Re:  A little clarification please. (George Connell)
>   62. Re:  Lee - Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   63. Re:  A little clarification please. (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   64.  166 unsnipped lines (Dennis Lawrence)
>   65.  hook - service rivalry (Dennis Lawrence)
>   66.  Supoplying the armies (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   67. Re:  hook - service rivalry (George Connell)
>   68. Re:  Supoplying the armies (George Connell)
>   69. Re:  Supoplying the armies (John Grim)
>   70. Re:  Supoplying the armies (CWMHTours at aol.com)
>   71. Re:  Supoplying the armies (CWMHTours at aol.com)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:00:29 -0500
> From: <dherko at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <20120127180029.5R99J.50967.root at cdptpa-web25-z02>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> John,
> 
> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> 
> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> 
> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> 
> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> 
> VR
> Don
> 
> ---- John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com> wrote: 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Esteemed Members
> > 
> > Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> > Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> > the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> > that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> > political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> > east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> > Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> > units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> > regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> > get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> > further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> > mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> > Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> > Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> > long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> > that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> > opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> > and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> > probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> > not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:16:04 +0000
> From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID:
>     <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101F96D at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a few miles from there).  His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an impressive home.  I believe he was the person responsible for organizing the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.  
> 
> If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.  Although about 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the tornado hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports not yet strengthened).  You can still see the fallen supports in the valley.  They did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still standing and put in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to the valley below.  You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire structure.  Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have a very humorous tale that occurred that day.  
> 
> That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire General Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to the town also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those pesky elk refuse to come out.  
> 
> On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who never was able to come back and claim it.
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>    Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are really nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) Visitor's center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year we go. 
> Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - the Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry etc. - if we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, Benezette - a dream land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:22:29 -0800
> From: Matt Diestel <agatematt at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Memoir of post-battle visits to Gettysburg
> Message-ID:
>     <CA+i57zaUU+kGremXOM71WujM=cT0sxT55FS_nAczAa+85XPgJg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Tom Ryan Contributes:
> >
> 
> 
> > Issue 46 of Gettysburg Magazine includes an article about a memoir by a
> > Lutheran minister, Rev. Franklin Sshantz, who visited the battlefield
> > immediately after the fighting ended, July 7-9, a couple weeks later, July
> > 22-27, and at the time of the National Cemetery dedication, July 17-20.
> > Very interesting and detailed observations about the scene on the
> > battlefield (bodies still lying around unburied), the makeshift hospitals
> > in
> > barns, farmhouses and private homes, and the parade and dedication of the
> > cemetery where he heard "Remarks by President Lincoln."  Dr. Schantz was
> > also in attendance when Lincoln spoke to a crowd that had gathered outside
> > of a home (presumably David Wills' house on the square).
> >
> > The article focuses primarily on the Eleventh Corps hospital at the
> > Spangler
> > Farm, acquired by the Gettysburg Foundation in recent years and targeted
> > for
> > future restoration.  The article is also a plea for donations to speed this
> > restoration process along.
> >
> > One comment that caught my eye on that on July 8, a couple of days after
> > the
> > Union army had left Gettysburg, Dr. Schantz observed "a large body of
> > Cavalry starting on a march to join the army which had left Gettysburg.
> >  The
> > left in a heavy rain."
> >
> > He did not explain what "a large body of Cavalry" consisted of, but I am
> > curious what unit this cavalry was part of, and why they were still in
> > Gettysburg while Meade was in pursuit of Lee's retreating army?
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Tom Ryan
> >
> >    Tom,
> >
>       Coddington on page 544 of his "The Gettysburg Campaign: A Study in
> Command" in which he notes the movement of the AOP's cavalry in the days
> following the battle contains the following: "Pleasanton, for reasons not
> known, stripped General Gregg, an able and experienced brigadier, of his
> entire command and apparently left him with nothing to do until July 9,
> when one of his brigades finally reported back to him for orders."
>     At that time, the AOP's 2nd Cavalry Division consisted of three
> brigades commanded by McIntosh, Huey had been back at Westminster guarding
> the army's main supply depot during the battle.
>      That "large body of cavalry" would seem to have either been McIntosh's
> or Gregg's brigade since on the 4th, Pleasanton had told Kilpatrick to take
> his division to Emmittsburg where he would find Huey's Brigade waiting,
> which had been brought over from Westminster to be ready to pounce on any
> of Lee's trains moving south via Hagerstown (Coddington, Pg. 544). Given
> that Huey had already deployed that far south, it would seem strange that
> the brigade would then be pulled all the way back to Gettysburg simply to
> report to Gregg for orders.  But with Pleasanton, one never knows.
>       However, it would seem that the "large body of cavalry" must have
> been one of Gregg's brigades and Shantz had the wrong date of July 8 for
> when he saw the cavalry.
>            With regards,
>               Chet
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:23:42 +0000
> From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID:
>     <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101F986 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> It makes perfect sense though if the real motivation was simply to keep his precious ANV together and not have part of it shipped off to Vicksburg.  Lee couldn't be straight with Davis about this and came up with the crop story as a sidebar to his real motivations.  When asked why troops shouldn't be sent to Vicksburg, Lee couldn't simply state "because I don't want to send them."  He had to present a valid case for keeping them assigned to his army.  
> 
> Just don't ask me to prove this, but this is my belief of the true reason he invaded the North - to keep the ANV intact, the army he had "nurtured and created" (yes, I am aware technically the army existed prior to his command, but no one in the Confederacy remembers an army pre June 1862).  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of dherko at kc.rr.com
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:00 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> John,
> 
> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> 
> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> 
> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> 
> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> 
> VR
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:39:17 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <i0j4a4nx5pwsqpqykkw7tpsm.1327631814083 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Well, Lee personally never was going to Harrisburg. He did direct troops there as part of a larger diversion to draw the AoP out of his rear.
> It was a raid designed for that purpose.
> I do not recall saying there was to be no action there.
> It us the aggrandizing of the action I was refuting.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> 
> George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Jack,
> >
> >So Lee was going to Harrisburg after all? I believe you're had an epiphany! Hope reigns!
> >
> >George
> >26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> >On Jan 26, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Not that it makes a difference, but that is my take also.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Jack
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Baetz" <wbaetz at mac.com>
> >> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:51 PM
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have  sent forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad  infrastructure, damage manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and  generally create further panic in the north, but holding the city was  never an option. I believe there was a relatively small window of  opportunity for the ANV to operate in Pennsylvania.
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that  Lee did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and  take it.
> >>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>> My
> >>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed  it.
> >>>> thanks
> >>>> K.
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:18:47 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <dcu8tcustw97rpk1kmd7eedb.1327634327314 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Not so far that he was more than a day from the valley.
> 
> keith mackenzie <bluzdad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >It seems that everyone agrees that if Lee had gone to Harrisburg, he would not have tried to stay there any longer than necessary. So then, the contentious issue is wether he really planned on going there at all??
> >?
> >?(This is a "Just Occurred to Me" question): If his goal was to draw the AoP north, how?far north was far enough? 
> >K.
> >?
> >? 
> >
> >________________________________
> >???> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have? sent forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad? infrastructure, damage manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and? generally create further panic in the north, but holding the city was? never an option. I believe there was a relatively small window of? opportunity for the ANV to operate in Pennsylvania.
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that? Lee did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and? take it.
> >>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>> My
> >>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed? it.
> >>>> thanks
> >>>> K.
> >>>>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:22:55 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <qp8035fb2xg2w0m9kycq8yae.1327638175568 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> One huge advantage for Army of the Potomac were the interior railroad lines. The resupply of the AoP was done almost totally by rail. Lee could not compete with that. Lee could live off the land but he could not rear arm off the land (nor would it have been practice t string his trains to Harrisburg). In fact, Lee could not live off the land without moving. As Grant had learned in Mississippi the year before, an army can sustain itself in country previously untouched by war, but it can only sit in one place briefly.
> lee did not have the luxury to sit still.
> The quandary was that every foot he took outside of the Cumberland was a foot towards extinction.
> Lee had limited options, and limited means to exercise them with.
> Nowhere among those options I'd there any political gain. In fact, the whole fiasco was helping seal the foreign intervention option.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Barrett <tbarrett21 at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >
> >From a military standpoint, I think he wanted to draw the AoP far enough so
> >that they were separated from their supply and support bases and far enough
> >that they would be tired, scattered, and not able to concentrate
> >effectively.  Drawing them toward Harrisburg was a good plan, but spreading
> >them out would have been even better, so the AoP Corps couldn't quickly
> >support one another.
> >
> >I think he figured that his forces would be more rested and better
> >concentrated than the AoP, and that he'd pick off and defeat the Union units
> >as they came north.  
> >
> >As it turned out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough, and the AoP was well
> >organized, well supplied, and was able to concentrate effectively.  For
> >whatever reason, Lee chose to attack anyway.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >TB 
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> >On Behalf Of keith mackenzie
> >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:03 PM
> >To: GDG
> >Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >It seems that everyone agrees that if Lee had gone to Harrisburg, he would
> >not have tried to stay there any longer than necessary. So then, the
> >contentious issue is wether he really planned on going there at all??
> >?
> >?(This is a "Just Occurred to Me" question): If his goal was to draw the AoP
> >north, how?far north was far enough? 
> >K.
> >?
> >? 
> >
> >________________________________
> >???> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union
> >forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have? sent
> >forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad? infrastructure, damage
> >manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and? generally create further
> >panic in the north, but holding the city was? never an option. I believe
> >there was a relatively small window of? opportunity for the ANV to operate
> >in Pennsylvania.
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that? Lee
> >did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and? take it.
> >>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>> My
> >>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I
> >don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed? it.
> >>>> thanks
> >>>> K.
> >>>>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >-to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >-----
> >No virus found in this message.
> >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4768 - Release Date: 01/26/12
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:24:07 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please. (TR)
> Message-ID: <ekgcwegchder07mtua6mo4l0.1327670647185 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> IMHO. Gettysburg was about as far out of the valley as Lee cared to go.
> Should he (unlikely) have dislodged the AoP any pursuit could only ended IP as a disaster for the ANV
> 
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> 
> keith mackenzie <bluzdad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Tom R:? If this is the lengthy response to which you are referring, which?I did read entirely, and then again, and to be sure, yet again,?I can't find any mention of how far north Lee was prepared to go, in a physical, geographical sense. 
> >?You answered my original question in the first paragraph. So it's very likely that my AADD kicked in shortly after reading it. (OOOH LOOK! A PUPPY!)
> >Never mind though, TB's??response? came close.
> >?
> >("As it turned out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough...")
> >?
> >K,
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >?
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: Tom Ryan <pennmardel at mchsi.com>
> >To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
> >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 4:19 PM
> >Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Keith,
> >
> >My understanding of Lee's intent regarding the invasion was to capture an
> >important town or city.? The capture would be sufficient to embarrass the
> >Federal government, and impress potential foreign allies such as Britain and
> >France.? There was no need to hold the captured location for any length of
> >time in order to accomplish these goals.
> >
> >One of Lee's objectives was to motivate the Northern population to press
> >Washington to bring about a peace settlement, and the capture of a major
> >city or town would fit the bill nicely along those lines.
> >
> >It should also be noted that Lee wanted to lead the Peace Democrats
> >(Copperheads) and others who favored a settlement with the South to believe
> >the South was serious about ending the war and reuniting with the North.? As
> >he mentioned to President Davis in his proposal along these lines, there
> >would be no intent to actually rejoin the Union once a ceasefire/settlement
> >was reached.
> >
> >It appears that Lee was being more than a bit devious in this respect.
> >
> >In a lengthy and revealing message to President Davis on June 10, 1863 (as
> >the invasion was about to get underway), Lee made a number of observations
> >of how the war could be won by other than debilitating military means.? The
> >following excerpt sums up Lee's approach:
> >
> >"Should the belief [in the North] that peace will bring back the Union
> >become general, the war would no longer be supported....? When peace is
> >proposed to us...it is not the part of prudence to spurn the
> >proposition...[to] those who wish to...believe...that it will result in
> >bringing us back to the Union.? We entertain no such aspirations...the
> >desire of our people for a distinct and independent national existence will
> >prove as steadfast under the influence of peaceful measures as it has shown
> >itself in the midst of war."? See OR, 27, III, pp. 880-82.
> >
> >Suggest you read this entire lengthily message.? It is one of the most frank
> >and revealing missives that Lee wrote during the Gettysburg Campaign, and
> >perhaps during the entire war.
> >
> >Regards, Tom Ryan
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> >[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]On Behalf Of keith mackenzie
> >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:13 PM
> >To: GDG
> >Subject: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >
> >
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that Lee did
> >not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and take it.
> >I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >My
> >question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it??I don't
> >think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed it.
> >thanks
> >K.
> >-
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:52:50 -0500 (EST)
> From: joadx1 at netscape.net
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> Message-ID: <8CEAB3C0093515C-1BB0-3638 at Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 
> When all is said and done, I think that the reason the ANV lost the battle of Gettysburg can be traced to its prior experience with the commanders of the AoP.  We all here know that when the AoP got hit hard in the past, its commanding general usually ordered a retreat--especially as at Seven Pines through the Seven Days (often after a Union tactical victory in a given engagement) and Chancellorsville (which, even after the Jackson-led flank attack should have been a Union victory).  According to that pattern, the AoP should (from Lee's point of view) have retreated after getting hit hard on Day 1 at Gettysburg.  When the AoP held its ground south of the town, Lee, on the basis of past experience, rather understandably believed that another hard hit should do the trick.  Day 2 was quite a series of hard hits.  Still, the AoP failed to behave according to past performance.  At this point I think we can say that Lee, so to speak, got emotional,
>  rather like a gambler who has had a winning streak and cannot believe that his luck has turned.  So he tosses the dice once more, and so we have day 3, and once again the AoP doesn't flinch.
> 
> Same thing happened in the Forty Days.
> 
> In short, as Pickett's old line has it, "the Yankees had something to do with it."  Meade (and, later, Grant) simply weren't McClellan and Hooker.  Had Grant been in charge at Seven Pines, the war would have ended in 1862 in a Union victory, ironically, as McPherson points out, with a restoration of the Union with slavery intact.  The prolonging of the war only intensified the depth of the eventual defeat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:18:37 +0000 (UTC)
> From: 128thpa at comcast.net
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Message-ID:
>     <1206397257.147214.1327691917183.JavaMail.root at sz0069a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>     
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <<Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a few miles from there). His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an impressive home. I believe he was the person responsible for organizing the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken. > 
> 
> ? 
> 
> Was there the summer of 2002 before the bridge came down - an incredible feature.? Thomas Leiper Kane was born in Philadelphia - yes he helped to raise the 42nd Pa.? His brother is the Arctic explorer, Elisha Root Kane who wrote a well received book on his travels.? Elisha is buried in Laural Hill Cemetery.? IIRC, Thomas Kane had been buried there one time as he died while in Philadelphia and then was moved to Kane, Pa.? Thomas Kane was named after I believe his grandfather, Thomas Leiper who was an inventor.?He is created with?building the first documented railroad on his estate. ? The family estate Avondale, is right outside Philadelphia and can be toured.? A family of overachievers. 
> 
> ? 
> 
> Also, Duncannon was mentioned - if anyone goes definitely?check out the Sled Works -? http://www.sledworks.com/ ? It is an antique place with an old fashion soda fountain that makes great milkshakes. 
> 
> ? 
> 
> Also the last operating ferry across the Susquehanna (at least it was a few years ago) is at Millersville on the east side.? I can't find a website for it, but according to wikipedia it was still running in 2011.? ?I tried to take it once - but as we arrived, a lightening storm came through the area and thought better of it.? Millersville University?has a very interesting campus with lots of history.? 
> 
> ? 
> 
> Paula 
> 
> ? 
> 
> 
> 
> ? 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com> 
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:40:27 AM 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
> Jeff: 
> 
> Thanks for the information (and like the witticism at the end). ?It makes sense to cover a normal bridge, it just surprised me a railroad bridge would be covered. ?I learn everyday how my assumptions are incorrect, mostly though the corrections come from my wife ;-) 
> 
> Out of curiosity: ?is the Marysville Bridge the location of the Statue of Liberty in the river? ?This is a bit north of Marysville (more like Duncannon I believe) but it seems where the Statue of Liberty is located could easily be a trestle / support column. ? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk 
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:51 AM 
> To: GDG 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
> Andy, the Rockville Bridge is a bit south of the ruined Marysville Bridge. 
> ? 
> A wooden bridge has a life span of about ten to fifteen? years.? If you cover it the life span increases to about seventy to?eighty years.? Also Covered Bridges are way cooler then regular ones. 
> ? 
> ? 
> ? 
> ? 
> 
> ?Namaste 
> ? 
> Jeff Burk 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe 
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:28:00 +0000
> From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Message-ID:
>     <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101FA23 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Paula:
> 
> The site seems to be in need of repair.  The only pictures I could find were here:  http://www.livingplaces.com/PA/Delaware_County/Nether_Providence_Township/Avondale.html  
> 
> Being B&W, it makes it little hard to tell, but it does seem to need some attention.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of 128thpa at comcast.net
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:19 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> Was there the summer of 2002 before the bridge came down - an incredible feature.? Thomas Leiper Kane was born in Philadelphia - yes he helped to raise the 42nd Pa.? His brother is the Arctic explorer, Elisha Root Kane who wrote a well received book on his travels.? Elisha is buried in Laural Hill Cemetery.? IIRC, Thomas Kane had been buried there one time as he died while in Philadelphia and then was moved to Kane, Pa.? Thomas Kane was named after I believe his grandfather, Thomas Leiper who was an inventor.?He is created with?building the first documented railroad on his estate. ? The family estate Avondale, is right outside Philadelphia and can be toured.? A family of overachievers. 
> 
> Also, Duncannon was mentioned - if anyone goes definitely?check out the Sled Works -? http://www.sledworks.com/ ? It is an antique place with an old fashion soda fountain that makes great milkshakes. 
> 
> Also the last operating ferry across the Susquehanna (at least it was a few years ago) is at Millersville on the east side.? I can't find a website for it, but according to wikipedia it was still running in 2011.? ?I tried to take it once - but as we arrived, a lightening storm came through the area and thought better of it.? Millersville University?has a very interesting campus with lots of history.? 
> 
> Paula 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:12:14 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <ij4lshedcjrx82louv1gib00.1327691094782 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Lee was a Lee of Virginia. 
> Hi people had been of Virginia be fire their was a United States. They hailed from a place so remote it was once bombaeded by pirates.
> To the Lees, Virginia WAS their country.
> Lee entered service in the Confederacy not out of treason nor did he hold allegiance to the Confederacy. He e was a Lee OF Virginia. Lee entered the service of the Confederacy to serve Virginia only.
> So when Lee took his forces north, he did it only to spare Virginia. He cared not if the Confederacy died. 
> Virginia must be spared.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >John,
> >
> >that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> >
> >Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> >
> >As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> >
> >Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> >
> >VR
> > Don
> >
> >---- John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Esteemed Members
> >> 
> >> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:43:38 +0000 (UTC)
> From: 128thpa at comcast.net
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Message-ID:
>     <1157895797.148827.1327693418923.JavaMail.root at sz0069a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>     
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> <<The site seems to be in need of repair. The only pictures I could find were here: http://www.livingplaces.com/PA/Delaware_County/Nether_Providence_Township/Avondale.html 
> 
> Being B&W, it makes it little hard to tell, but it does seem to need some attention. >> 
> 
> 
> Andy:? As most historic sites now a days - the funding is little or nothing.? I visited there when I knew the site manager and actually her family lived in part of the house.? But they eventually left there.? I don't know the status today - but I would guess by the fact that they stated if you want to take tours contact the Friends group that they have no paid staff there.? I know that has been the fate of many historic sites in Pennsylvania.? Some sites had to close, others are open on a limited basis due to very dedicated volunteers. 
> ? 
> Paula
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:50:50 +0000
> From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Message-ID:
>     <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101FA77 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Thanks Paula....
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of 128thpa at comcast.net
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:44 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Andy:? As most historic sites now a days - the funding is little or nothing.? I visited there when I knew the site manager and actually her family lived in part of the house.? But they eventually left there.? I don't know the status today - but I would guess by the fact that they stated if you want to take tours contact the Friends group that they have no paid staff there.? I know that has been the fate of many historic sites in Pennsylvania.? Some sites had to close, others are open on a limited basis due to very dedicated volunteers. 
> ? 
> Paula
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:03:51 -0500
> From: Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <2006A6B4-FE62-49AA-957D-03ECC6256230 at zbzoom.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
> 
> You are right
> Organized bucktails
> Staunch abolitionist
> He was also friends with Brigham Young
> Kane County Utah also named after him 
> He has a statue in Utah's Capitol building
> Best part of Kane's history is that he fought alongside Candy on Culps Hill
> Geary had Candy-Kane lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> I like saying Candy-Kane
> ;-)
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a few miles from there).  His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an impressive home.  I believe he was the person responsible for organizing the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.  
> > 
> > If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.  Although about 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the tornado hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports not yet strengthened).  You can still see the fallen supports in the valley.  They did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still standing and put in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to the valley below.  You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire structure.  Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have a very humorous tale that occurred that day.  
> > 
> > That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire General Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to the town also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those pesky elk refuse to come out.  
> > 
> > On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who never was able to come back and claim it.
> > 
> > Thanks, 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> > 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >   Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are really nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) Visitor's center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year we go. 
> > Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - the Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry etc. - if we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, Benezette - a dream land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Tom B.
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:07:11 -0600
> From: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <566FA278156D4C4682F2BC6F2C98A652 at jackPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>     reply-type=original
> 
> candy kane was an actress in the 70's.
> regards,
> jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dave Glorioso" <glory at zbzoom.net>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > You are right
> > Organized bucktails
> > Staunch abolitionist
> > He was also friends with Brigham Young
> > Kane County Utah also named after him
> > He has a statue in Utah's Capitol building
> > Best part of Kane's history is that he fought alongside Candy on Culps 
> > Hill
> > Geary had Candy-Kane lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> > I like saying Candy-Kane
> > ;-)
> > Dave
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 
> >> 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( 
> >> http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was 
> >> originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him 
> >> a few miles from there).  His home is also a bed and breakfast, called 
> >> Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an 
> >> impressive home.  I believe he was the person responsible for organizing 
> >> the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.
> >>
> >> If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.  Although about 
> >> 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have 
> >> it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the 
> >> tornado hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports 
> >> not yet strengthened).  You can still see the fallen supports in the 
> >> valley.  They did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still 
> >> standing and put in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to 
> >> the valley below.  You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this 
> >> bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire structure. 
> >> Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have a very humorous 
> >> tale that occurred that day.
> >>
> >> That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am 
> >> not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire 
> >> General Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to 
> >> the town also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those 
> >> pesky elk refuse to come out.
> >>
> >> On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of 
> >> gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who 
> >> never was able to come back and claim it.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com 
> >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> >> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> >> To: GDG
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> >>
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>   Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are 
> >> really nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) 
> >> Visitor's center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year 
> >> we go.
> >> Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're 
> >> right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related 
> >> matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - 
> >> the Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry 
> >> etc. - if we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, 
> >> Benezette - a dream land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Tom B.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> >>  -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:12:13 +0000
> From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID:
>     <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101FAB5 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Although having died in 1974, she has appeared in 4 films since 2002 with the latest being 2010 (according to Wikipedia).  
> 
> Sort of remind me of the Monty Python sketch about Marilyn Monroe.......
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jack Lawrence
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:07 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> candy kane was an actress in the 70's.
> regards,
> jack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:14:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: keith mackenzie <bluzdad at yahoo.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID:
>     <1327695265.56096.YahooMailNeo at web112705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I like saying "Greene, Candy, Kane"
> ?
> ?
> "Hello! I'm The Doctor." (Dr. Who)
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You are right
> Organized bucktails
> Staunch abolitionist
> He was also friends with Brigham Young
> Kane County Utah also named after him 
> He has a statue in Utah's Capitol building
> Best part of Kane's history is that he fought alongside Candy on Culps Hill
> Geary had Candy-Kane lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> I like saying Candy-Kane
> ;-)
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a few miles from there).? His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an impressive home.? I believe he was the person responsible for organizing the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.? 
> > 
> > If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.? Although about 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the tornado hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports not yet strengthened).? You can still see the fallen supports in the valley.? They did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still standing and put in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to the valley below.? You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire structure.? Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have a very humorous tale that occurred that day.? 
> > 
> > That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire General Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to the town also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those pesky elk refuse to come out.? 
> > 
> > On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who never was able to come back and claim it.
> > 
> > Thanks, 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> > 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >? Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are really nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) Visitor's center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year we go. 
> > Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - the Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry etc. - if we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, Benezette - a dream land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Tom B.
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 19
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:22:04 -0600
> From: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <0365E5C7417D4051BAD61710CF51D14C at jackPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>     reply-type=original
> 
> I appreciated her early work.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "keith mackenzie" <bluzdad at yahoo.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I like saying "Greene, Candy, Kane"
> 
> 
> "Hello! I'm The Doctor." (Dr. Who)
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You are right
> Organized bucktails
> Staunch abolitionist
> He was also friends with Brigham Young
> Kane County Utah also named after him
> He has a statue in Utah's Capitol building
> Best part of Kane's history is that he fought alongside Candy on Culps Hill
> Geary had Candy-Kane lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> I like saying Candy-Kane
> ;-)
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 
> > miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( 
> > http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was 
> > originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a 
> > few miles from there). His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane 
> > Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an 
> > impressive home. I believe he was the person responsible for organizing 
> > the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.
> >
> > If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there. Although about 1/2 
> > the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have it, 
> > the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the tornado 
> > hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports not yet 
> > strengthened). You can still see the fallen supports in the valley. They 
> > did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still standing and put in a 
> > glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to the valley below. You 
> > can still get a good feel for the marvel of this bridge but unfortunately, 
> > can no longer cross the entire structure. Years ago, we took a train 
> > across the bridge and have a very humorous tale that occurred that day.
> >
> > That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am 
> > not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire General 
> > Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to the town 
> > also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those pesky elk 
> > refuse to come out.
> >
> > On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of 
> > gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who 
> > never was able to come back and claim it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> > On Behalf Of Tom
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are really 
> > nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) Visitor's 
> > center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year we go.
> > Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're 
> > right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related 
> > matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - the 
> > Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry etc. - if 
> > we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, Benezette - a dream 
> > land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tom B.
> >
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 20
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:24:24 -0500
> From: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <E58F071BA2D64847813930E0C345A0F5 at TomPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>     reply-type=original
> 
> 
> 
> >>>  I like saying "Greene, Candy, Kane" <<<<
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL - That's the catch words I use to remember they all fought in the same 
> area. And thanks Andy - Kinzua will be a stop in October for sure
> 
> Regards, Tom B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 21
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:29:52 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <14CFF447-76E5-4893-91C1-7A0E4BB6BAF1 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Marines coined the term "Grunt" in the early 60s (before that conflict Dennis doesn't want us to mention) when just about everyone in the Army was mechanized. That's a fact, Jack!
> 
> Is your grandson still on active duty?
> 
> Semper Fi,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I thought you were a Marine?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Jack
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> > To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> > 
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Rookies talk about strategy, professionals talk logistics!
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> A Grunt
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 9:54, dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Lee could not have drawn the AoP away from their supply base by going North.
> >>> 
> >>> The Union had developed a series of permanent and temporary supply depots.  I did quite a bit of study on City Point.  Montgomery Meigs was the QM General, Ingals was the AoP QM chief.  As the AoP moved across Virginia throughout the war, the War Department closed and opened temporary depots - city point was the best example.  Permanent depots were just informed by telegraph or other means on how to push supplies and to where they would go.
> >>> 
> >>> The greatest example of Union Supply efficiency was the mail for Sherman's Army.  Sherman had not informed the war department on the exact timeand place of where he would emerge at the end of his march.  His troops received the fisrt batch of mail within the week, I think actually four days but less than seven is good enough for arguement's sake.  The Union Supply system was that good.
> >>> 
> >>> At Petersburg, if I was a regimental QM, I could request a set of shoes size 16EE.  The request would flow up the chain of command (QM side) through the AoP to Ingals office, as the now Chief of QM for the Armies Operating around Richmond (or whatever title he had).  His department was operating out of the Epp plantation house overlooking the City Point Warfs.  If the clothing warehouses did not have the set of shoes, the request was passed to Meigs HQ in DC, where the request would be sent to the depot for clothing (lets say Boston for instance) if Boston Depot did not have the 16EE, they would contact the manufacturer and several sets of 16EE shoes were made, sent to Boston, forward an intermediate depot if one was assigned for low priority routine deliveries or possibly put on a ship right to City Point if the request was given a higher priority. Remember City Point was, during the seige, the busiest port in the world.
> >>> 
> >>> Conferderate Soldiers who for months smelled fresh bread being delivered to Union troops at Petersburg were in awe when they were proceessed through City Point as prisoners.
> >>> 
> >>> Again that is Lee not truly understanding what he was up against.  His men were supplying themselves for two years on Union good (sadlles, blankets, weapons, clothing, wagons, cannon, anything they could pick up) the supply never stopped.  The wagon train that Stuart captured had 250 brand new wagons with brand new bits, straps, harnesses,  theat stuff was being crated at record pace.
> >>> 
> >>> As Lee was running out of serviceable horses, Meade had more than he could use.  Hunt was able to create a secret wagon train filled with ammunition for a big fight.  The corperate Union Army, that was prosecuting the war strategically was light years ahead of the CSA.  Only Sherman's Army during his Georgia was the only Union Army that ever was completely severed fro the Union supply system.
> >>> 
> >>> VR
> >>> Don Herko (US Army Loggie)
> >>> 
> >>> --- Tom Barrett <tbarrett21 at cox.net> wrote:
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> 
> >>>> From a military standpoint, I think he wanted to draw the AoP far enough so
> >>>> that they were separated from their supply and support bases and far enough
> >>>> that they would be tired, scattered, and not able to concentrate
> >>>> effectively.  Drawing them toward Harrisburg was a good plan, but spreading
> >>>> them out would have been even better, so the AoP Corps couldn't quickly
> >>>> support one another.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I think he figured that his forces would be more rested and better
> >>>> concentrated than the AoP, and that he'd pick off and defeat the Union units
> >>>> as they came north.
> >>>> 
> >>>> As it turned out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough, and the AoP was well
> >>>> organized, well supplied, and was able to concentrate effectively.  For
> >>>> whatever reason, Lee chose to attack anyway.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> 
> >>>> TB
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>>   >
> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union
> >>>> forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have  sent
> >>>> forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad  infrastructure, damage
> >>>> manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and  generally create further
> >>>> panic in the north, but holding the city was  never an option. I believe
> >>>> there was a relatively small window of  opportunity for the ANV to operate
> >>>> in Pennsylvania.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that Lee
> >>>> did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and  take it.
> >>>>>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>>>>> My
> >>>>>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I
> >>>> don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed it.
> >>>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>>> K.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>>> -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>> -----
> >>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4768 - Release Date: 01/26/12
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 22
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:40:58 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> Message-ID: <B103A988-13CE-4A0F-92C2-A251C8B6997E at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I have it nearly memorized! Coddington, Smoddington; Southall Freeman was masterful! Have you read his George Washington biography? Magnificent (as long as you have six months to spare)!
> 
> Semper Fi, Do or Die!
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > George, I think you need to review Lee and His Lieutenants.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Jack
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> > To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> > 
> > 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I believe so--and I think he was flat-on-his-back sick that time.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > George
> > 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> > 
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Andy Mills wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Isn't this the same reason claimed he failed to attack on the North Anna in 1864?
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of John Lawrence
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:21 PM
> >> To: GDG
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> >> 
> >> I cannot see an army commander not functioning because of health, unless he was comatose.
> >> If he was healthy enough to tell Longstreet to quit his whining, he was healthy enough to command.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> Jack
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 23
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:54:02 -0500
> From: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <42C796C96B3F404EB90B3FA31685B9BB at TomPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>     reply-type=original
> 
> >>>>
> Sometimes I
> wonder whether Lee headed
> North, besides the tried and true reasons, to stave off the chance of losing
> some of his command to the West (Vicksburg especially). Commanders don't
> like to lose troops to another command, maybe an ego thing ;-D. Not saying
> Lee's best interests for the Confederacy were not in his heart, but the
> acceleration of his movements after meeting with Davis was  (to me) a bit
> suspect. <<<<<<
> 
> I had posted the above last week - thought I was one of the few that felt 
> this way. Just a theory - but it's almost like "See ya Mr. Davis - we're 
> leaving now - I'll be in touch". A few weeks later, Lee advises that he has 
> to cut off communications back to Richmond due partially to manpower 
> shortages. As an aside - back to Harrisburg - there has to be some strong 
> reasons that initially Lee is looking at Harrisburg - Ewell at Carlisle - 
> Early/Gordon at Wrightsville - another words, a full Corps north & south of 
> Harrisburg (whether to entice the AOP, raid the city, or invest it for a 
> short time). I join with the "Lee was decoying the AOP  to hasten north" on 
> the premise that supposedly Lee felt the AOP wasn't moving fast enough north 
> for him (Stuart not communicating same to Lee). Lee was in the land of 
> plenty, but subsisting 75-80,000  men would only go so far in PA. 
> Logistically, that's a long stretch from PA, back through the Shenandoah to 
> VA. I realize that's oversimplifying the matter, but that's how I see it, I 
> truly think he would have been better taking another foray into Maryland - 
> but I don't wish to go into what if territory.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Andy Mills
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:23 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> It makes perfect sense though if the real motivation was simply to keep his 
> precious ANV together and not have part of it shipped off to Vicksburg.  Lee 
> couldn't be straight with Davis about this and came up with the crop story 
> as a sidebar to his real motivations.  When asked why troops shouldn't be 
> sent to Vicksburg, Lee couldn't simply state "because I don't want to send 
> them."  He had to present a valid case for keeping them assigned to his 
> army.
> 
> Just don't ask me to prove this, but this is my belief of the true reason he 
> invaded the North - to keep the ANV intact, the army he had "nurtured and 
> created" (yes, I am aware technically the army existed prior to his command, 
> but no one in the Confederacy remembers an army pre June 1862).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> On Behalf Of dherko at kc.rr.com
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:00 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> John,
> 
> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to 
> support.
> 
> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not 
> possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly 
> protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> 
> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince 
> Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on 
> July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had 
> surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> 
> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace 
> Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia 
> and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of 
> losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, 
> did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he 
> protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> 
> VR
> Don
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 24
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:08:08 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <4E86ECBD-3A85-40F5-B612-0E69C6DCE737 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> It's a fact that Lee spent two days in Richmond (I think it was two; I'm on a trip and away from my books) with Davis going over options. It's also a fact that Davis and his entire cabinet (with one vote against--that being Reagan, the postmaster general and a pretty smart guy) voted in favor of the move into Pennsylvania. These were not shy men, nor men of limited intelligence, but rather men of considerable experience, some of whom had vested interests in the West. I don't think Lee pulled a fast one.
> 
> When you consider the options carefully, sending troops west was not a good idea. I have explained why before and would be happy to do so again after this trip. Sending Lee and troops that way would have been a lot better, but then who would replace Lee. I think the fundamental problem at that point in the war was that the Confederacy lacked sufficient competent top-level commanders. This was less a troop-strength problem than a find-a-good-aggressive-commander problem.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:33 PM, John Grim wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Esteemed Members
> > 
> > Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> > Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> > the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> > that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> > political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> > east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> > Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> > units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> > regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> > get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> > further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> > mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> > Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> > Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> > long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> > that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> > opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> > and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> > probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> > not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 25
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:10:05 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <318F8631-4275-4440-A7F3-A6950AB9F5F3 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Jack,
> 
> You've slipped over the rhetorical edge again! I have a toll-free counseling number I can give you.
> 
> Praying for your recovery,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 2:12 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Lee was a Lee of Virginia. 
> > Hi people had been of Virginia be fire their was a United States. They hailed from a place so remote it was once bombaeded by pirates.
> > To the Lees, Virginia WAS their country.
> > Lee entered service in the Confederacy not out of treason nor did he hold allegiance to the Confederacy. He e was a Lee OF Virginia. Lee entered the service of the Confederacy to serve Virginia only.
> > So when Lee took his forces north, he did it only to spare Virginia. He cared not if the Confederacy died. 
> > Virginia must be spared.
> > Regards,
> > Jack
> > 
> > dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> John,
> >> 
> >> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> >> 
> >> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> >> 
> >> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> >> 
> >> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> >> 
> >> VR
> >> Don
> >> 
> >> ---- John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Esteemed Members
> >>> 
> >>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >>> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >>> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >>> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >>> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >>> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >>> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >>> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >>> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >>> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >>> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 26
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:12:59 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <0A768D7E-50C8-44F6-9A92-C050B7BACD9E at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Green was there too. You can Green Candy Kane.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > candy kane was an actress in the 70's.
> > regards,
> > jack
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Glorioso" <glory at zbzoom.net>
> > To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> > 
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> You are right
> >> Organized bucktails
> >> Staunch abolitionist
> >> He was also friends with Brigham Young
> >> Kane County Utah also named after him
> >> He has a statue in Utah's Capitol building
> >> Best part of Kane's history is that he fought alongside Candy on Culps Hill
> >> Geary had Candy-Kane lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> >> I like saying Candy-Kane
> >> ;-)
> >> Dave
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Another quasi related Civil War story of the area, although it is about 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to Kinzua Bridge ( http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named after him a few miles from there).  His home is also a bed and breakfast, called Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the town of Kane, which is quite an impressive home.  I believe he was the person responsible for organizing the original Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.
> >>> 
> >>> If you have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.  Although about 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck would have it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the bridge just as the tornado hit the very center of it, bringing down the couple of supports not yet strengthened).  You can still see the fallen supports in the valley.  They did recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still standing and put in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet to the valley below.  You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire structure. Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have a very humorous tale that occurred that day.
> >>> 
> >>> That is about the only other Civil War related story I can think of (I am not sure if it is technically Civil War related, but if you admire General Kane [sorry, I get confused if I just use his last name, due to the town also being called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those pesky elk refuse to come out.
> >>> 
> >>> On another treasure related aspect, there is also said to be a stash of gold buried within sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who never was able to come back and claim it.
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> >>> To: GDG
> >>> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> >>> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>  Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we love your area - and the folks are really nice (they don't hunt & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) Visitor's center is awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each year we go.
> >>> Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania. And you're right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the Civil War related matters in the area, makes it that more enjoyable. Civil War related - the Bucktails were a tough bunch - derived from the lumber industry etc. - if we ever move - PA's the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, Benezette - a dream land of my hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Tom B.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 27
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:24:21 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <23155.4c0e7fbf.3c547005 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Good post Andy-
> 
> Was Ft Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had it been  there 
> before?  How extensive was it?   Was it upgraded with more  cannon after the 
> invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.   Were there covering 
> batteries to guard it  flanks? 
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> I don't think Lee ever planned or envisioned  reaching so far as Baltimore 
> or Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as he 
> could go.  He wasn't going to get there  with the AOP in his rear and even if 
> he conducted a Cannae type battle, he is  still forced to retreat back to 
> Virginia for the inability to continue an  advance (or even holding the ground 
> gained).  
> 
> I think we see this  as part of the reason for Pickett's Charge.  He didn't 
> have the  capabilities to disengage and fight another battle as his army 
> was almost out  of war material to continue.  A battle that occurs even 
> further north  exacerbates this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee is still 
> forced to  fall back.  
> 
> However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend with Fort 
> Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the time  [correct me if wrong], which 
> is a great little site with some earthworks still  visible if you ever get 
> a chance to visit).  I am not sure how well  manned it would be, but a 
> crossing can't occur until this fort is taken, at  least in my estimation as it 
> had a commanding view of any river  crossing.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> On Behalf  Of John Grim
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33 PM
> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> Esteemed Members
> 
> Most of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance in June towards 
> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that believes Lee went north to take the war 
> away from Virginia so crops could  be harvested and replanted and that troops 
> might be drawn away from Grant and  that there might be political advantage 
> to be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee being successful east of Harrisburg 
> with the river at his back and having  to contend with Philadelphia, Baltimore, 
> Washington and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union army 
> gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were not regulars but they can 
> picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's  and generally get in the way.  Lee's 
> communications and supply lines  would be extended further and further and he 
> would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and their passes. 
> As it was it took him 10  days to get back to Virginia from Gettysburg.  
> He may have been able to  live off the land near Harrisburg but where would 
> his munitions and
> replacements come from??  How long could he stay away from Richmond with  
> only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just don't see it but I am  
> willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for  broke.  
> He had limited goals
> and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> probably have been impossible  from east of Harrisburg and he probably 
> would not have gotten his Gettysburg  wounded  back.
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  
> Archives
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 28
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:19:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- 75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938
> Message-ID: <25246.7aa81d38.3c547cf7 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> You may also want to get Ken Burns's last chapter of his  series.  He 
> spends some significant time going into the post-war experience  and heritage.  
> That film strip of the old vets shaking hands over the wall  and making the 
> Rebel Yell is one excerpt.
> 
> Also, go into Grand Army of the Republic which was the Union  social 
> fraternity after the war.  Should be a lot of interesting vignettes  there.
> 
> Also, Sons of Union Volunteers and Sons of Confederate  Volunteers.  They 
> may have something to offer. 
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 11:38:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> denlaw at gojade.org writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> >
> >What do I need to know about this  reunion, and what questions should I ask
> >this gentleman (who I guess is  in his 80's or 90's)?
> Hi,
> 
> Hopefully Chris Army will let his wife  Alyce know of this request in 
> time for you to make contact with  her.
> 
> She is an authority on this.
> 
> Dennis  
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 29
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:31:07 -0500
> From: "Terry Brasko" <TerryBrasko at mindspring.com>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- 75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938
> Message-ID: <002f01ccdd43$5cd1ea70$1675bf50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 
> >Also, Sons of Union Volunteers and Sons of Confederate  Volunteers.  They
> may have something to offer. 
> 
> >A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >Peter  
> 
> Do you mean Sons of Confederate Veterans??
> 
> Terry Brasko
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 30
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:33:43 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID: <25a97.6f74ea24.3c548047 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Today I had reason to go to DMV in Alexandria and took the  Yellow line 
> subway which at the Potomac rises up out of the tunnel, goes over a  bridge, 
> and then goes back underground before stopping at the Pentagon.  I  was lost 
> in thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker over  a 
> mile away on the hill at Arlington of John Gibbon and those of others.   No 
> leaves.  Pretty cool.  Usually you can't see them from the  subway.  As 
> Americans we are lucky to have this capital city.
> 
> (John Grim,  I couldn't stay down there or I would have  called you.)
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 31
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:37:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> Message-ID: <25cb0.507a417f.3c54813f at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Yes-  didn't she play a prostitute on Magnum  P.I.?
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 3:07:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> candy kane was an actress in the  70's.
> regards,
> jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dave  Glorioso" <glory at zbzoom.net>
> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 2:03  PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> 
> 
> >  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > You are right
> > Organized  bucktails
> > Staunch abolitionist
> > He was also friends with  Brigham Young
> > Kane County Utah also named after him
> > He has a  statue in Utah's Capitol building
> > Best part of Kane's history is that  he fought alongside Candy on Culps 
> > Hill
> > Geary had Candy-Kane  lost on Baltimore pike and they missed July 2 action
> > I like saying  Candy-Kane
> > ;-)
> > Dave
> >
> > Sent from my  iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Andy Mills  <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >> Another quasi related Civil War story of the area,  although it is about 
> >> 40 miles from Benezette, is a visit to  Kinzua Bridge ( 
> >>  http://www.smethporthistory.org/kinzuaviaduct/index.htm ), which was  
> >> originally built by General Thomas Kane (whom has a town named  after 
> him 
> >> a few miles from there).  His home is also a bed  and breakfast, called 
> >> Kane Manor, http://kanemanor.com/ in the  town of Kane, which is quite 
> an 
> >> impressive home.  I believe  he was the person responsible for 
> organizing 
> >> the original  Bucktails, but please correct me if mistaken.
> >>
> >> If you  have extra time, I would suggest a visit there.  Although about  
> >> 1/2 the bridge was destroyed in a tornado in 2003 (and as luck  would 
> have 
> >> it, the state was in the process of stabilizing the  bridge just as the 
> >> tornado hit the very center of it, bringing  down the couple of supports 
> >> not yet strengthened).  You can  still see the fallen supports in the 
> >> valley.  They did  recently re-deck the portion of the bridge still 
> >> standing and put  in a glass bottom so you can look down, all 301 feet 
> to 
> >> the  valley below.  You can still get a good feel for the marvel of this 
> 
> >> bridge but unfortunately, can no longer cross the entire  structure. 
> >> Years ago, we took a train across the bridge and have  a very humorous 
> >> tale that occurred that  day.
> >>
> >> That is about the only other Civil War related  story I can think of (I 
> am 
> >> not sure if it is technically Civil  War related, but if you admire 
> >> General Kane [sorry, I get  confused if I just use his last name, due to 
> >> the town also being  called Kane]), this is a must see site or if those 
> >> pesky elk  refuse to come out.
> >>
> >> On another treasure related  aspect, there is also said to be a stash of 
> >> gold buried within  sight of the bridge left there by a bank robber who 
> >> never was  able to come back and claim it.
> >>
> >>  Thanks,
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com 
> >>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> >> Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 12:53 PM
> >> To: GDG
> >> Subject: Re:  GDG- William Addleman of the Bucktails
> >>
> >> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> >>   Thanks Andy - I'm jealous - we  love your area - and the folks are 
> >> really nice (they don't hunt  & eat tourists - that's a good thing ;-D) 
> >> Visitor's center is  awesome - but the crowds are getting worse each 
> year 
> >> we  go.
> >> Whoever thought you could see elk in the wild in Pennsylvania.  And 
> you're 
> >> right - it is the Caledonia Pike. Had no idea of the  Civil War related 
> >> matters in the area, makes it that more  enjoyable. Civil War related - 
> >> the Bucktails were a tough bunch -  derived from the lumber industry 
> >> etc. - if we ever move - PA's  the place - Gettysburg,Lancaster, 
> >> Benezette - a dream land of my  hobbies. = (Civil War-Food-Elk).
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>  Tom B.
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
> >>  -to unsubscribe
> >>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
> >  -to unsubscribe
>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 32
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:47:47 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- 75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938
> Message-ID: <261ab.74cbe830.3c548393 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> I think you are right.  Oops...
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 5:31:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> TerryBrasko at mindspring.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> >Also, Sons of Union Volunteers and Sons of  Confederate  Volunteers.  They
> may have something to offer.  
> 
> >A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >Peter  
> 
> Do you  mean Sons of Confederate Veterans??
> 
> Terry  Brasko
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 33
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:42:20 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb0rUgRiCV=pxne0D9H7ipO7c4k1C7hV92mMtaApein1VA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Peter
> 
> Turned out to be a nice day after noon but so windy.  We've been lucky
> weatherwise this winter
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Today I had reason to go to DMV in Alexandria and took the  Yellow line
> > subway which at the Potomac rises up out of the tunnel, goes over a
> >  bridge,
> > and then goes back underground before stopping at the Pentagon.  I  was
> > lost
> > in thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker over  a
> > mile away on the hill at Arlington of John Gibbon and those of others.   No
> > leaves.  Pretty cool.  Usually you can't see them from the  subway.  As
> > Americans we are lucky to have this capital city.
> >
> > (John Grim,  I couldn't stay down there or I would have  called you.)
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 34
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:43:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID: <27e06.3127aa6b.3c5490ad at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Looking forward to seeing you on the 12th John.  This  will be cool.
> 
> And chili!
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter
> 
> Turned out to be a nice day after noon  but so windy.  We've been lucky
> weatherwise this winter
> 
> On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Today I had reason to go to DMV in Alexandria  and took the  Yellow line
> > subway which at the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel, goes over a
> >  bridge,
> > and then goes  back underground before stopping at the Pentagon.  I  was
> >  lost
> > in thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker  over  a
> > mile away on the hill at Arlington of John Gibbon and  those of others.  
> No
> > leaves.  Pretty cool.   Usually you can't see them from the  subway.  As
> > Americans  we are lucky to have this capital city.
> >
> > (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down there or I would have  called you.)
> >
> >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >  ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 35
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:47:40 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb2q1Bp7OMP+5znDZcBBv6JrdGJ4=FcORV5X5cqcVppFSg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Peter
> 
> Who's your pick for the Super Bowl??  I like the Giants and the pts.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Looking forward to seeing you on the 12th John.  This  will be cool.
> >
> > And chili!
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Turned out to be a nice day after noon  but so windy.  We've been lucky
> > weatherwise this winter
> >
> > On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > > Today I had reason to go to DMV in Alexandria  and took the  Yellow line
> > > subway which at the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel, goes over a
> > >  bridge,
> > > and then goes  back underground before stopping at the Pentagon.  I  was
> > >  lost
> > > in thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker  over
> >  a
> > > mile away on the hill at Arlington of John Gibbon and  those of others.
> > No
> > > leaves.  Pretty cool.   Usually you can't see them from the  subway.  As
> > > Americans  we are lucky to have this capital city.
> > >
> > > (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down there or I would have  called you.)
> > >
> > >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >  ----------------
> > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > >  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> > >
> > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 36
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:49:00 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID: <28065.48d3ca20.3c5491eb at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> I am not too much of a sports dude.  haven't been  following it.  Are you 
> mad at me?
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter
> 
> Who's your pick for the Super  Bowl??  I like the Giants and the pts.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Looking forward to seeing you on the 12th John.   This  will be cool.
> >
> > And chili!
> >
> > A   Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but so windy.  We've been lucky
> > weatherwise this  winter
> >
> > On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
> > > Today I had reason to go to DMV in  Alexandria  and took the  Yellow 
> line
> > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel, goes over a
> > >   bridge,
> > > and then goes  back underground before stopping at  the Pentagon.  I  
> was
> > >  lost
> > > in  thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker  
> over
> >  a
> > > mile away on the hill at Arlington of John  Gibbon and  those of others.
> > No
> > > leaves.  Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see them from the  subway.  
> As
> > > Americans  we are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > >
> > > (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down  there or I would have  called you.)
> > >
> > >   A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >   ----------------
> > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  >  unsubscribe
> > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >  >
> > ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/ge
> ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 37
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:00:00 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb2ns=9+3rU542ipPCpERgLSjY=9h28xNYAhRLHren=oUw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Peter
> 
> Not at all.  I follow ALL the posts.  Sometimes if I'm off I can keep up.
> Sometimes I have to let them bunch up if I'm busy.   Had 5 weeks off and
> Monday I went back to work...been busy driving Capital 0ne interviewees
> from DCA & IAD to Tysons and then to Cap. 0ne and the various hotels in
> Tysons.  Been getting home just about dinner time.  Been starting with the
> CFO in Fairfax Station usually around 6:00 a.m. which necessitates getting
> up about 5:00 a.m.  I don't see very well at night (driving) so I have to
> be the daylight guy.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I am not too much of a sports dude.  haven't been  following it.  Are you
> > mad at me?
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Who's your pick for the Super  Bowl??  I like the Giants and the pts.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Looking forward to seeing you on the 12th John.   This  will be cool.
> > >
> > > And chili!
> > >
> > > A   Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but so windy.  We've been lucky
> > > weatherwise this  winter
> > >
> > > On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
> > > > Today I had reason to go to DMV in  Alexandria  and took the  Yellow
> > line
> > > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel, goes over a
> > > >   bridge,
> > > > and then goes  back underground before stopping at  the Pentagon.  I
> > was
> > > >  lost
> > > > in  thought when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker
> > over
> > >  a
> > > > mile away on the hill at Arlington of John  Gibbon and  those of
> > others.
> > > No
> > > > leaves.  Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see them from the  subway.
> > As
> > > > Americans  we are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > > >
> > > > (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down  there or I would have  called you.)
> > > >
> > > >   A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > > Peter
> > > >   ----------------
> > > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > >  >  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> > >  >
> > > ----------------
> > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> > >  -to  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------
> > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > >  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> > >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/ge
> > ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 38
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:02:31 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID: <2866f.23ba905a.3c549517 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> It's really fun growing old, isn't it?
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 7:00:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter
> 
> Not at all.  I follow ALL the  posts.  Sometimes if I'm off I can keep up.
> Sometimes I have to let  them bunch up if I'm busy.   Had 5 weeks off and
> Monday I went  back to work...been busy driving Capital 0ne interviewees
> from DCA &  IAD to Tysons and then to Cap. 0ne and the various hotels in
> Tysons.   Been getting home just about dinner time.  Been starting with the
> CFO  in Fairfax Station usually around 6:00 a.m. which necessitates getting
> up  about 5:00 a.m.  I don't see very well at night (driving) so I have  to
> be the daylight guy.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > I am not too much of a sports dude.  haven't  been  following it.  Are you
> > mad at me?
> >
> >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a  message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Who's your pick for the Super   Bowl??  I like the Giants and the pts.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27,  2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >  Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Looking forward to seeing  you on the 12th John.   This  will be cool.
> >  >
> > > And chili!
> > >
> > > A   Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > >  In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > >  Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Peter
> >  >
> > > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but so  windy.  We've been 
> lucky
> > > weatherwise this   winter
> > >
> > > On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Esteemed   GDG  Member Contributes:
> > > > Today I had reason to go to  DMV in  Alexandria  and took the  Yellow
> > line
> >  > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel,  goes over 
> a
> > > >   bridge,
> > > > and then  goes  back underground before stopping at  the Pentagon.   I
> > was
> > > >  lost
> > > > in  thought  when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker
> > over
> >  >  a
> > > > mile away on the hill at Arlington of  John  Gibbon and  those of
> > others.
> > > No
> >  > > leaves.  Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see  them from the  
> subway.
> > As
> > > > Americans  we  are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > > >
> > > >  (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down  there or I would have   called 
> you.)
> > > >
> > > >   A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > > Peter
> > > >    ----------------
> > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  >  >  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >  >  >
> > > ----------------
> > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  >  -to  unsubscribe
> > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------
> >  >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to
> > >  unsubscribe
> > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >  >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/ge
> >  ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for   Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 39
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:10:04 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb2JemUVLVgHz0tKRgwG5cODFQk6rx3dVXYbebMELf5pGw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> It's not good.  I'm a diabetic last 5 years but only a type 2 and I've done
> very well on medication.  Thank god for medicare...lol.  I've only belonged
> to the GDG for a bit over a year.  I've met a few of the people at last
> years Muster, Nancy, George, Dean, J.D. and probably others whose names I
> see but aren't that familiar with.  I'm constantly absorbing CW info.  I
> tend to be very careful what I blog about knowing that many of these people
> have a lot more specific knowledge than I have.  You can say 10 things
> right but if you say one thing you can't back up...you're going to hear
> about it.  What do you think?
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:02 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > It's really fun growing old, isn't it?
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 7:00:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Not at all.  I follow ALL the  posts.  Sometimes if I'm off I can keep up.
> > Sometimes I have to let  them bunch up if I'm busy.   Had 5 weeks off and
> > Monday I went  back to work...been busy driving Capital 0ne interviewees
> > from DCA &  IAD to Tysons and then to Cap. 0ne and the various hotels in
> > Tysons.   Been getting home just about dinner time.  Been starting with the
> > CFO  in Fairfax Station usually around 6:00 a.m. which necessitates getting
> > up  about 5:00 a.m.  I don't see very well at night (driving) so I have  to
> > be the daylight guy.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > I am not too much of a sports dude.  haven't  been  following it.  Are
> > you
> > > mad at me?
> > >
> > >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > In a  message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > Who's your pick for the Super   Bowl??  I like the Giants and the pts.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 27,  2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > > Looking forward to seeing  you on the 12th John.   This  will be cool.
> > >  >
> > > > And chili!
> > > >
> > > > A   Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > > >
> > > >  Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > > Peter
> > >  >
> > > > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but so  windy.  We've been
> > lucky
> > > > weatherwise this   winter
> > > >
> > > > On Fri,  Jan 27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Esteemed   GDG  Member Contributes:
> > > > > Today I had reason to go to  DMV in  Alexandria  and took the  Yellow
> > > line
> > >  > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of the tunnel,  goes over
> > a
> > > > >   bridge,
> > > > > and then  goes  back underground before stopping at  the Pentagon.
> > I
> > > was
> > > > >  lost
> > > > > in  thought  when I realized that I was looking at the grave marker
> > > over
> > >  >  a
> > > > > mile away on the hill at Arlington of  John  Gibbon and  those of
> > > others.
> > > > No
> > >  > > leaves.  Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see  them from the
> > subway.
> > > As
> > > > > Americans  we  are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > > > >
> > > > >  (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay down  there or I would have   called
> > you.)
> > > > >
> > > > >   A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >    ----------------
> > > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > >  >  >  unsubscribe
> > > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> > >  >  >
> > > > ----------------
> > > >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> > >  >  -to  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
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> > >  ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
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> > >
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 40
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:25:47 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID: <28fa1.320492b2.3c549a8b at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Haha.
> 
> I am looking for partime chauffer work for the winter and yest  had to 
> renew my D.O.T. health card to drive buses.  At the med check the  doc was 
> amazed.  I've been driving those stupid pedicabs, which weigh empty  200-300 lbs, 
> since last winter.  Then you put adults in a ride uphill it is  quite an 
> experience.  Turns out my heart rate was 68(!) and my BP is  wonderful.  Did I 
> send you pics?
> 
> Not bad for a 60 yr old guy with a heart  condition.   ;-{)  !!!!
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 7:10:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> It's not good.  I'm a diabetic last 5 years  but only a type 2 and I've done
> very well on medication.  Thank god  for medicare...lol.  I've only belonged
> to the GDG for a bit over a  year.  I've met a few of the people at last
> years Muster, Nancy,  George, Dean, J.D. and probably others whose names I
> see but aren't that  familiar with.  I'm constantly absorbing CW info.  I
> tend to be  very careful what I blog about knowing that many of these people
> have a lot  more specific knowledge than I have.  You can say 10 things
> right but  if you say one thing you can't back up...you're going to hear
> about  it.  What do you think?
> 
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:02 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > It's really fun growing old, isn't it?
> >
> >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a  message dated 1/27/2012 7:00:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Peter
> >
> > Not at all.  I follow ALL  the  posts.  Sometimes if I'm off I can keep 
> up.
> > Sometimes I  have to let  them bunch up if I'm busy.   Had 5 weeks off  
> and
> > Monday I went  back to work...been busy driving Capital 0ne  interviewees
> > from DCA &  IAD to Tysons and then to Cap. 0ne  and the various hotels in
> > Tysons.   Been getting home just  about dinner time.  Been starting with 
> the
> > CFO  in Fairfax  Station usually around 6:00 a.m. which necessitates 
> getting
> > up   about 5:00 a.m.  I don't see very well at night (driving) so I have  
> to
> > be the daylight guy.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:49  PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > I am not too much of a sports  dude.  haven't  been  following it.  Are
> >  you
> > > mad at me?
> > >
> > >  A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > >  In a  message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > >  Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Peter
> >  >
> > > Who's your pick for the Super   Bowl??  I  like the Giants and the pts.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 27,   2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> >  > >  Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > >  Looking forward to seeing  you on the 12th John.   This   will be 
> cool.
> > >  >
> > > > And chili!
> >  > >
> > > > A   Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> >  > >  In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
> > >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com  writes:
> > > >
> > > >  Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > > Peter
> > >   >
> > > > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but  so  windy.  We've been
> > lucky
> > > > weatherwise  this   winter
> > > >
> > > > On Fri,  Jan  27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >  >
> > > > > Esteemed   GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > > > Today I had reason to go to  DMV  in  Alexandria  and took the  
> Yellow
> > > line
> >  >  > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of  the tunnel,  goes 
> over
> > a
> > > > >    bridge,
> > > > > and then  goes  back underground  before stopping at  the Pentagon.
> > I
> > > was
> > >  > >  lost
> > > > > in  thought  when I  realized that I was looking at the grave marker
> > > over
> >  >  >  a
> > > > > mile away on the hill at  Arlington of  John  Gibbon and  those of
> > >  others.
> > > > No
> > >  > > leaves.   Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see  them from  the
> > subway.
> > > As
> > > > > Americans   we  are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > > >  >
> > > > >  (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay  down  there or I would have   called
> > you.)
> > >  > >
> > > > >   A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >     ----------------
> > > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  >  >  >  unsubscribe
> > > >  >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for   Archives
> > >  >  >
> > > >  ----------------
> > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  >  >  -to  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  ----------------
> > >  >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to
> >  > >  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >  >  >
> > >  ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/ge
> > >   ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for    Archives
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------
> >  >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to
> > >  unsubscribe
> > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >  >
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>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
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> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 41
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:30:14 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- An Interesting Experience
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb0Ub7mZQ30njMSknEGNO3pL5qwZ2H_M7OunRgKvJ965Qg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Peter
> 
> I wouldn't even attempt to peddle a pedicab although I was a really good
> athlete for many years. I played baseball, football and tennis in high
> school and went to U. of Florida on a tennis scholarship.  I'm from Ft.
> Lauderdale and Chris Everts dad (Jimmy) was also my coach.  Time has taken
> its toll on eyes and legs but I'm still in decent shape.
> 
> 2012/1/27 <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Haha.
> >
> > I am looking for partime chauffer work for the winter and yest  had to
> > renew my D.O.T. health card to drive buses.  At the med check the  doc was
> > amazed.  I've been driving those stupid pedicabs, which weigh empty
> >  200-300 lbs,
> > since last winter.  Then you put adults in a ride uphill it is  quite an
> > experience.  Turns out my heart rate was 68(!) and my BP is  wonderful.
> >  Did I
> > send you pics?
> >
> > Not bad for a 60 yr old guy with a heart  condition.   ;-{)  !!!!
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 7:10:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > It's not good.  I'm a diabetic last 5 years  but only a type 2 and I've
> > done
> > very well on medication.  Thank god  for medicare...lol.  I've only
> > belonged
> > to the GDG for a bit over a  year.  I've met a few of the people at last
> > years Muster, Nancy,  George, Dean, J.D. and probably others whose names I
> > see but aren't that  familiar with.  I'm constantly absorbing CW info.  I
> > tend to be  very careful what I blog about knowing that many of these
> > people
> > have a lot  more specific knowledge than I have.  You can say 10 things
> > right but  if you say one thing you can't back up...you're going to hear
> > about  it.  What do you think?
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:02 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > It's really fun growing old, isn't it?
> > >
> > >  A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > In a  message dated 1/27/2012 7:00:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > > Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > Not at all.  I follow ALL  the  posts.  Sometimes if I'm off I can keep
> > up.
> > > Sometimes I  have to let  them bunch up if I'm busy.   Had 5 weeks off
> > and
> > > Monday I went  back to work...been busy driving Capital 0ne  interviewees
> > > from DCA &  IAD to Tysons and then to Cap. 0ne  and the various hotels in
> > > Tysons.   Been getting home just  about dinner time.  Been starting with
> > the
> > > CFO  in Fairfax  Station usually around 6:00 a.m. which necessitates
> > getting
> > > up   about 5:00 a.m.  I don't see very well at night (driving) so I have
> >  to
> > > be the daylight guy.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:49  PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > > I am not too much of a sports  dude.  haven't  been  following it.  Are
> > >  you
> > > > mad at me?
> > > >
> > > >  A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  In a  message dated 1/27/2012 6:48:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> > > >
> > > >  Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > > Peter
> > >  >
> > > > Who's your pick for the Super   Bowl??  I  like the Giants and the pts.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 27,   2012 at  6:43 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >  > >  Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > > > >  Looking forward to seeing  you on the 12th John.   This   will be
> > cool.
> > > >  >
> > > > > And chili!
> > >  > >
> > > > > A   Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >  > >  In a message  dated 1/27/2012 6:42:50 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
> > > >  >  jgrim1941 at gmail.com  writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >  Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > > > Peter
> > > >   >
> > > > > Turned out to be a nice day after  noon  but  so  windy.  We've been
> > > lucky
> > > > > weatherwise  this   winter
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri,  Jan  27, 2012 at 5:33 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> > > >  >
> > > > > > Esteemed   GDG  Member  Contributes:
> > > > > > Today I had reason to go to  DMV  in  Alexandria  and took the
> > Yellow
> > > > line
> > >  >  > > subway which at  the Potomac rises up  out of  the tunnel,  goes
> > over
> > > a
> > > > > >    bridge,
> > > > > > and then  goes  back underground  before stopping at  the Pentagon.
> > > I
> > > > was
> > > >  > >  lost
> > > > > > in  thought  when I  realized that I was looking at the grave
> > marker
> > > > over
> > >  >  >  a
> > > > > > mile away on the hill at  Arlington of  John  Gibbon and  those of
> > > >  others.
> > > > > No
> > > >  > > leaves.   Pretty  cool.   Usually you can't see  them from  the
> > > subway.
> > > > As
> > > > > > Americans   we  are lucky to have this capital  city.
> > > > >  >
> > > > > >  (John Grim,  I  couldn't stay  down  there or I would have
> > called
> > > you.)
> > > >  > >
> > > > > >   A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> > > > > > Peter
> > > > > >     ----------------
> > > > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com-to
> > >  >  >  >  unsubscribe
> > > > >  >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
> > Archives
> > > >  >  >
> > > > >  ----------------
> > > > >    http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> > >  >  >  -to  unsubscribe
> > > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for
> >  Archives
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  ----------------
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> > >  > >  unsubscribe
> > > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> > >  >  >
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> > > >   ttysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for    Archives
> > > >
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> > >  >  http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to
> > > >  unsubscribe
> > > >  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
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> > >  -to  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> > >
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> > >  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
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> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 42
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:00:05 -0600
> From: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <3AE74312B12943D2A65EB4561D82A008 at jackPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>     reply-type=original
> 
> Ft. Couch was erected for the emergency.
> 
> IIRC, it was part of Halleck,s plan to raise a national militia and man this 
> and other defenses.
> It was built by free blacks an manned by whatecer was at hand.
> It was supposed to simply cover the approaches to anotherr fort on the 
> river-name escapes me.
> Couch kept the main body across the river and I am no sure a crossing v
> 
> I am doing this by memory, but the civilian population was just not 
> concerned enough to actually join this militia and defe n harrisburg. Most 
> reinforcements came from a new york militia that was not all that effective.
> 
> Halleck was unwilling to release federal troops, even Pennsylvania units, 
> and pretty much left the defenses up to the Governor.
> 
> He did authorize the raising of emergency colored units for the emergency. 
> One unit was raised and were put to work defending the Wrightsville bridge. 
> This is the only colored unit that was involved in the Campaign.
> 
> The colored troops were put together with some white volunteers and put to 
> worg digging gun pits.
> The white guys apparently resented being relegated to do colored wpork, and 
> just left.
> The pits were abandoned after the bridge was burned.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Good post Andy-
> >
> > Was Ft Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had it been  there
> > before?  How extensive was it?   Was it upgraded with more  cannon after 
> > the
> > invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.   Were there 
> > covering
> > batteries to guard it  flanks?
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > I don't think Lee ever planned or envisioned  reaching so far as Baltimore
> > or Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as he
> > could go.  He wasn't going to get there  with the AOP in his rear and even 
> > if
> > he conducted a Cannae type battle, he is  still forced to retreat back to
> > Virginia for the inability to continue an  advance (or even holding the 
> > ground
> > gained).
> >
> > I think we see this  as part of the reason for Pickett's Charge.  He 
> > didn't
> > have the  capabilities to disengage and fight another battle as his army
> > was almost out  of war material to continue.  A battle that occurs even
> > further north  exacerbates this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee is 
> > still
> > forced to  fall back.
> >
> > However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend with Fort
> > Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the time  [correct me if wrong], 
> > which
> > is a great little site with some earthworks still  visible if you ever get
> > a chance to visit).  I am not sure how well  manned it would be, but a
> > crossing can't occur until this fort is taken, at  least in my estimation 
> > as it
> > had a commanding view of any river  crossing.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com 
> > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf  Of John Grim
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33 PM
> > To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> > Subject: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> >
> > Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> > Esteemed Members
> >
> > Most of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance in June towards
> > Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that believes Lee went north to take 
> > the war
> > away from Virginia so crops could  be harvested and replanted and that 
> > troops
> > might be drawn away from Grant and  that there might be political 
> > advantage
> > to be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee being successful east of Harrisburg
> > with the river at his back and having  to contend with Philadelphia, 
> > Baltimore,
> > Washington and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union army
> > gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were not regulars but they can
> > picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's  and generally get in the way. 
> > Lee's
> > communications and supply lines  would be extended further and further and 
> > he
> > would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and their 
> > passes.
> > As it was it took him 10  days to get back to Virginia from Gettysburg.
> > He may have been able to  live off the land near Harrisburg but where 
> > would
> > his munitions and
> > replacements come from??  How long could he stay away from Richmond with
> > only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just don't see it but I am
> > willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for 
> > broke.
> > He had limited goals
> > and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> > probably have been impossible  from east of Harrisburg and he probably
> > would not have gotten his Gettysburg  wounded  back.
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
> > Archives
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 43
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:04:49 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <29f39.65e9bd05.3c54a3b1 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> THNX Jack-
> 
> Are the pits extant?
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Ft. Couch was erected for the  emergency.
> 
> IIRC, it was part of Halleck,s plan to raise a national  militia and man 
> this 
> and other defenses.
> It was built by free blacks an  manned by whatecer was at hand.
> It was supposed to simply cover the  approaches to anotherr fort on the 
> river-name escapes me.
> Couch kept  the main body across the river and I am no sure a crossing v
> 
> I am doing  this by memory, but the civilian population was just not 
> concerned enough  to actually join this militia and defe n harrisburg. Most 
> reinforcements  came from a new york militia that was not all that 
> effective.
> 
> Halleck  was unwilling to release federal troops, even Pennsylvania units, 
> and  pretty much left the defenses up to the Governor.
> 
> He did authorize the  raising of emergency colored units for the emergency. 
> One unit was raised  and were put to work defending the Wrightsville 
> bridge. 
> This is the only  colored unit that was involved in the Campaign.
> 
> The colored troops were  put together with some white volunteers and put to 
> worg digging gun  pits.
> The white guys apparently resented being relegated to do colored  wpork, 
> and 
> just left.
> The pits were abandoned after the bridge was  burned.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -  Harrisburg
> 
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Good post  Andy-
> >
> > Was Ft Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had  it been  there
> > before?  How extensive was it?    Was it upgraded with more  cannon after 
> > the
> >  invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.    Were there 
> > covering
> > batteries to guard it   flanks?
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >  Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> > amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >
> >  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > I don't think Lee ever planned  or envisioned  reaching so far as 
> Baltimore
> > or  Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as  he
> > could go.  He wasn't going to get there  with the AOP in  his rear and 
> even 
> > if
> > he conducted a Cannae type battle, he  is  still forced to retreat back to
> > Virginia for the inability to  continue an  advance (or even holding the 
> > ground
> >  gained).
> >
> > I think we see this  as part of the reason for  Pickett's Charge.  He 
> > didn't
> > have the  capabilities  to disengage and fight another battle as his army
> > was almost out   of war material to continue.  A battle that occurs even
> > further  north  exacerbates this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee 
> is  
> > still
> > forced to  fall back.
> >
> >  However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend with  Fort
> > Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the time  [correct  me if 
> wrong], 
> > which
> > is a great little site with some  earthworks still  visible if you ever 
> get
> > a chance to  visit).  I am not sure how well  manned it would be, but a
> >  crossing can't occur until this fort is taken, at  least in my 
> estimation  
> > as it
> > had a commanding view of any river   crossing.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original  Message-----
> > From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com 
> >  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf  Of John  Grim
> > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33 PM
> > To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> > Subject: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> >
> >  Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> > Esteemed  Members
> >
> > Most of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance  in June towards
> > Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that  believes Lee went north to 
> take 
> > the war
> > away from Virginia so  crops could  be harvested and replanted and that 
> > troops
> >  might be drawn away from Grant and  that there might be political  
> > advantage
> > to be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee  being successful east of Harrisburg
> > with the river at his back and  having  to contend with Philadelphia, 
> > Baltimore,
> >  Washington and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union  army
> > gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were not  regulars but they can
> > picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's  and  generally get in the way. 
> > Lee's
> > communications and supply  lines  would be extended further and further 
> and 
> > he
> >  would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and their  
> > passes.
> > As it was it took him 10  days to get back to  Virginia from Gettysburg.
> > He may have been able to  live off the  land near Harrisburg but where 
> > would
> > his munitions  and
> > replacements come from??  How long could he stay away from  Richmond with
> > only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just  don't see it but I am
> > willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's  operation was not a go for 
> > broke.
> > He had limited  goals
> > and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded back  to Virginia would
> > probably have been impossible  from east of  Harrisburg and he probably
> > would not have gotten his Gettysburg   wounded  back.
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >   -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
> >  Archives
> >
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >   -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> >
> >
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
> >  -to unsubscribe
>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 44
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:55:59 -0600
> From: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <EDCC7B93119B4ABDA472D18FF52B4D2B at jackPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>     reply-type=original
> 
> You know, I have driven by multiple times but I have never gone down there.
> 
> We have (or had) an esteemed member a couple of years ago who offered the 
> tour; dunnoo if he is still with us.
> 
> I'll betchee he can give a more coherent story than I can. some of that 
> stuff comes from vaguly recalled memories of the Camp Curtain monthly 
> magazine.
> 
> You might try the camp curtin group, come to think of it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> 
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > THNX Jack-
> >
> > Are the pits extant?
> >
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Ft. Couch was erected for the  emergency.
> >
> > IIRC, it was part of Halleck,s plan to raise a national  militia and man
> > this
> > and other defenses.
> > It was built by free blacks an  manned by whatecer was at hand.
> > It was supposed to simply cover the  approaches to anotherr fort on the
> > river-name escapes me.
> > Couch kept  the main body across the river and I am no sure a crossing v
> >
> > I am doing  this by memory, but the civilian population was just not
> > concerned enough  to actually join this militia and defe n harrisburg. 
> > Most
> > reinforcements  came from a new york militia that was not all that
> > effective.
> >
> > Halleck  was unwilling to release federal troops, even Pennsylvania units,
> > and  pretty much left the defenses up to the Governor.
> >
> > He did authorize the  raising of emergency colored units for the 
> > emergency.
> > One unit was raised  and were put to work defending the Wrightsville
> > bridge.
> > This is the only  colored unit that was involved in the Campaign.
> >
> > The colored troops were  put together with some white volunteers and put 
> > to
> > worg digging gun  pits.
> > The white guys apparently resented being relegated to do colored  wpork,
> > and
> > just left.
> > The pits were abandoned after the bridge was  burned.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jack
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> > To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 3:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -  Harrisburg
> >
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Good post  Andy-
> >>
> >> Was Ft Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had  it been  there
> >> before?  How extensive was it?    Was it upgraded with more  cannon after
> >> the
> >>  invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.    Were there
> >> covering
> >> batteries to guard it   flanks?
> >>
> >> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >>  Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> >> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >>
> >>  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> >> I don't think Lee ever planned  or envisioned  reaching so far as
> > Baltimore
> >> or  Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as 
> >> he
> >> could go.  He wasn't going to get there  with the AOP in  his rear and
> > even
> >> if
> >> he conducted a Cannae type battle, he  is  still forced to retreat back 
> >> to
> >> Virginia for the inability to  continue an  advance (or even holding the
> >> ground
> >>  gained).
> >>
> >> I think we see this  as part of the reason for  Pickett's Charge.  He
> >> didn't
> >> have the  capabilities  to disengage and fight another battle as his army
> >> was almost out   of war material to continue.  A battle that occurs even
> >> further  north  exacerbates this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee
> > is
> >> still
> >> forced to  fall back.
> >>
> >>  However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend with  Fort
> >> Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the time  [correct  me if
> > wrong],
> >> which
> >> is a great little site with some  earthworks still  visible if you ever
> > get
> >> a chance to  visit).  I am not sure how well  manned it would be, but a
> >>  crossing can't occur until this fort is taken, at  least in my
> > estimation
> >> as it
> >> had a commanding view of any river   crossing.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -----Original  Message-----
> >> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> >>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> >> On Behalf  Of John  Grim
> >> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33 PM
> >> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> >> Subject: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> >>
> >>  Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> >> Esteemed  Members
> >>
> >> Most of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance  in June towards
> >> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that  believes Lee went north to
> > take
> >> the war
> >> away from Virginia so  crops could  be harvested and replanted and that
> >> troops
> >>  might be drawn away from Grant and  that there might be political
> >> advantage
> >> to be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee  being successful east of Harrisburg
> >> with the river at his back and  having  to contend with Philadelphia,
> >> Baltimore,
> >>  Washington and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union 
> >> army
> >> gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were not  regulars but they 
> >> can
> >> picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's  and  generally get in the way.
> >> Lee's
> >> communications and supply  lines  would be extended further and further
> > and
> >> he
> >>  would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and their
> >> passes.
> >> As it was it took him 10  days to get back to  Virginia from Gettysburg.
> >> He may have been able to  live off the  land near Harrisburg but where
> >> would
> >> his munitions  and
> >> replacements come from??  How long could he stay away from  Richmond with
> >> only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just  don't see it but I am
> >> willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's  operation was not a go for
> >> broke.
> >> He had limited  goals
> >> and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded back  to Virginia would
> >> probably have been impossible  from east of  Harrisburg and he probably
> >> would not have gotten his Gettysburg   wounded  back.
> >>
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>   -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
> >>  Archives
> >>
> >>
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>   -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>  -to unsubscribe
> >>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> >  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 45
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:14:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <2b91b.3cfe7698.3c54b41b at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Nuttin in the Camp Curtin sites.
> 
> There are interesting pics if you enter Ft Couch.
> 
> Also found a good BBQ restaurant in Harrisburg.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:56:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> You know, I have driven by multiple times but I  have never gone down there.
> 
> We have (or had) an esteemed member a  couple of years ago who offered the 
> tour; dunnoo if he is still with  us.
> 
> I'll betchee he can give a more coherent story than I can. some of  that 
> stuff comes from vaguly recalled memories of the Camp Curtain monthly  
> magazine.
> 
> You might try the camp curtin group, come to think of  it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> jack
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -  Harrisburg
> 
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > THNX  Jack-
> >
> > Are the pits extant?
> >
> > A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > In a message dated  1/27/2012 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > jlawrence at kc.rr.com  writes:
> >
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Ft.  Couch was erected for the  emergency.
> >
> > IIRC, it was part  of Halleck,s plan to raise a national  militia and man
> >  this
> > and other defenses.
> > It was built by free blacks an   manned by whatecer was at hand.
> > It was supposed to simply cover  the  approaches to anotherr fort on the
> > river-name escapes  me.
> > Couch kept  the main body across the river and I am no sure a  crossing v
> >
> > I am doing  this by memory, but the civilian  population was just not
> > concerned enough  to actually join this  militia and defe n harrisburg. 
> > Most
> > reinforcements  came  from a new york militia that was not all that
> >  effective.
> >
> > Halleck  was unwilling to release federal  troops, even Pennsylvania 
> units,
> > and  pretty much left the  defenses up to the Governor.
> >
> > He did authorize the   raising of emergency colored units for the 
> > emergency.
> > One  unit was raised  and were put to work defending the Wrightsville
> >  bridge.
> > This is the only  colored unit that was involved in the  Campaign.
> >
> > The colored troops were  put together with some  white volunteers and put 
> > to
> > worg digging gun   pits.
> > The white guys apparently resented being relegated to do  colored  wpork,
> > and
> > just left.
> > The pits were  abandoned after the bridge was  burned.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> > Jack
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> > To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012  3:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -   Harrisburg
> >
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >> Good post  Andy-
> >>
> >> Was Ft  Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had  it been   there
> >> before?  How extensive was it?    Was it  upgraded with more  cannon 
> after
> >> the
> >>   invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.     Were there
> >> covering
> >> batteries to guard it    flanks?
> >>
> >> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> >>  Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> In a  message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> >>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >>
> >>  Esteemed   GDG Member Contributes:
> >> I don't think Lee ever planned  or  envisioned  reaching so far as
> > Baltimore
> >> or   Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as  
> >> he
> >> could go.  He wasn't going to get there   with the AOP in  his rear and
> > even
> >> if
> >> he  conducted a Cannae type battle, he  is  still forced to retreat back 
> 
> >> to
> >> Virginia for the inability to  continue  an  advance (or even holding the
> >> ground
> >>   gained).
> >>
> >> I think we see this  as part of the  reason for  Pickett's Charge.  He
> >> didn't
> >>  have the  capabilities  to disengage and fight another battle as his  
> army
> >> was almost out   of war material to continue.   A battle that occurs even
> >> further  north  exacerbates  this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee
> > is
> >>  still
> >> forced to  fall back.
> >>
> >>   However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend  with  
> Fort
> >> Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the  time  [correct  me if
> > wrong],
> >> which
> >>  is a great little site with some  earthworks still  visible if you  ever
> > get
> >> a chance to  visit).  I am not sure how  well  manned it would be, but a
> >>  crossing can't occur  until this fort is taken, at  least in my
> > estimation
> >>  as it
> >> had a commanding view of any river    crossing.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >>  -----Original  Message-----
> >> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> >>   [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> >> On Behalf  Of  John  Grim
> >> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33  PM
> >> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> >> Subject: GDG-  Lee - Harrisburg
> >>
> >>  Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
> >> Esteemed  Members
> >>
> >> Most  of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance  in June  towards
> >> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that   believes Lee went north to
> > take
> >> the war
> >> away  from Virginia so  crops could  be harvested and replanted and  that
> >> troops
> >>  might be drawn away from Grant  and  that there might be political
> >> advantage
> >> to  be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee  being successful east of  
> Harrisburg
> >> with the river at his back and  having  to  contend with Philadelphia,
> >> Baltimore,
> >>  Washington  and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union 
> >>  army
> >> gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were  not  regulars but they 
> >> can
> >> picket railroads,  bridges, guard POW's  and  generally get in the way.
> >>  Lee's
> >> communications and supply  lines  would be  extended further and further
> > and
> >> he
> >>   would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and  their
> >> passes.
> >> As it was it took him 10  days to  get back to  Virginia from Gettysburg.
> >> He may have been able  to  live off the  land near Harrisburg but where
> >>  would
> >> his munitions  and
> >> replacements come  from??  How long could he stay away from  Richmond 
> with
> >>  only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just  don't see it but  I 
> am
> >> willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's   operation was not a go for
> >> broke.
> >> He had limited   goals
> >> and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded  back  to Virginia would
> >> probably have been impossible   from east of  Harrisburg and he probably
> >> would not have  gotten his Gettysburg   wounded  back.
> >>
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> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 46
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:39:12 -0500 (EST)
> From: ATMackeyJr at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Al Mackey's Question
> Message-ID: <14af1.26096a5a.3c54c7e0 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Thanks very much for the response.  I find this story interesting with  a 
> lot of detective work still to go.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Al Mackey
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 9:25:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> smith_david_g at bah.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> Al-
> 
> Thanks for your question about  whether there was a Confederate policy 
> regarding capturing fugitive slaves or  free blacks.
> 
> I wasn't able to find one directing the captures.   What I did find was a 
> policy concerning what was to be done with captured  fugitive slaves - the 
> order used the term "arrested", underscoring the  Confederate attitude that 
> these were fugitives being rightfully  recaptured.  Apparently some in the 
> Confederate army were holding on to  recaptured slaves as body servants - the 
> order directed that they be sent to  the rear to "Camps of Instruction" 
> (training camps).  One was at  Petersburg, I forget where the other was.  There 
> they were to be held  until reclaimed. The order was signed by Walter Taylor 
> of Lee's staff, and is  in an obscure microfilm collection of General Orders 
> in the National  Archives.   Some years ago Aaron Sheehan-Dean sent me a 
> diary  reference of an officer in the Confederate cavalry doing just that, 
> traveling  back to reclaim his fugitive slave that had been recaptured.
> 
> Some years  ago I thought I had found the holy grail when a popular book on 
> the campaign  said that Longstreet had ordered the capture of African 
> Americans.   However, I corresponded with the author and he could not remember 
> where he had  gotten that information from (he wrote a lot of books).  I now 
> believe he  was probably extrapolating from the fact that Maxie Sorrel of 
> Longstreet's  staff sent an order regarding disposition of captured 
> "contrabands" on July  1.  But that doesn't prove to me that Longstreet was the 
> original impetus  - in fact, it seems unlikely, since Ewell's corps was involved 
> from the  beginning, and Longstreet's was the last to enter Pennsylvania.  
> I'll  leave the author nameless since I think he made an honest  mistake.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Confederate order books I have been able to  look at are 
> pretty incomplete for the Pennsylvania campaign.  They don't  seem to be 
> well kept up during that time.  
> 
> Regarding fugitives  versus free blacks, a lot of Confederates did not have 
> a very good knowledge  of the North.  I have seen a Richmond newspaper urge 
> in 1862 that  retaliation be carried out on Pennsylvania's African 
> Americans, only to say  immediately after that words to the effect, "but as there 
> are no Negroes in  Pennsylvania, other targets will have to be found."  I 
> think some  soldiers would have assumed that every African American they 
> encountered would  have been a fugitive slave.  In truth, many fugitive slaves had 
> migrated  to that part of Pennsylvania, but south-central Pennsylvania also 
> had a free  African American population of its own.  Some Confederate 
> commanders  tried to distinguish between the two, one taking a member of the 
> Greencastle  town council with him to indicate whether African Americans were 
> local free  blacks or fugitives (the story goes that the councilman vouched for 
> every  African American he saw, whether they were local or not).  Most rank 
> and  file soldie
> rs would not have known this, but in 1840, the Commissioner of  the Census 
> (who was a Southerner) had pretty much implied free blacks could  not 
> survive in the North without dying or going insane.  I think most  Southerners 
> didn't think about big communities of free blacks.
> 
> In line  with the policy, most African Americans captured in Pennsylvania 
> were sent to  Winchester and/or Staunton to be reclaimed by Shenandoah Valley 
> farmers.   Those that were not reclaimed were sent to Richmond - that 
> becomes another  part of the story.
> 
> Thanks for your interest.
> 
> David G.  Smith
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 47
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:31:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Richard Garrison <rgarrison212 at yahoo.com>
> To: gdbrown6 at verizon.net, cnieckarz at nycap.rr.com,
>     joagarrison17 at yahoo.com,    richgarrison at yahoo.com,
>     gina.garrison at acphs.edu, gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- (no subject)
> Message-ID:
>     <1327725109.27026.yint-ygo-j2me at web125406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> ...  http://www.cannonacasa.com.ar/work.link.php?bpage=03ki9
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 48
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:43:47 -0500
> From: "Tom Ryan" <pennmardel at mchsi.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: GDG- FW: 75th Reunion in Gettysburg in 1938
> Message-ID: <LDECKGPDMLODKMMFANMBMEEJDHAA.pennmardel at mchsi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Thanks to everyone who responded.  Since I did not receive the replies
> before my meeting, I will follow up with your suggestions during our next
> get together.
> 
> Wanted to share with you my neighbor's great grandfather's discharge papers.
> After examining them, it appears that this is a fanciful reproduction of the
> dischage as a keepsake.  It is elaborately decorated in color illustrations
> of CW scenes.  Apparently, from the notation at the bottom, Private Gray had
> this rendition of the discharge papers made esspecially as a gift for his
> family.
> 
> Appreciate any comments you may have about them.  This was written in a
> fancy script, so was a little difficult to transcribe.  John C. might be
> John E.  At least that is what his great grandson believes.  Hard to tell
> from the script.
> 
> This is somewhat OT, but indirectly relates to 75th Reunion topic.  I will
> post more about the Reunion as I go over my notes.
> 
> Here is the wording of the discharge:
> 
> 
> This is to certify
> 
> that
> 
> John C. Gray
> 
> Enlisted August 23rd 1864 from Chester County, Pa. and was mustered into the
> United States service at West Chester, Pa. to serve one year as a private in
> Capt. S.S. Richardson?s Battery E, 1st Regt Pennsylvania Vol. Artillery.
> 
> The Battery formed part of the 5th Corps, Army of the Potomac and Comrade
> Gray shared the fortunes of the Battery in all its movements and engagements
> during the operations around Petersburg through the Siege and Fall of the
> City Ap 2, 65.  Participated in the pursuit of Lee along the South Side
> Railroad to Appomattox.  Also engaged in garrison duty.  The Battery held a
> high reputation for its efficiency and was commended for distinguished
> service.  Comrade Gray was Honorably Discharged June 21, 1865 at Harper?s
> Ferry [West] Va. By reason of close of war.
> 
> Member of the W.S. Thompson Post, No. 132 G.A.R., Oxford, Pa.
> 
> Presented by Comrade Gray to his wife Ida and children Hattie L., John E.,
> Clarence S., Allie, and Marjorie, Aug. 16, 1901.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 49
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:53:51 -0500
> From: "Tom Ryan" <pennmardel at mchsi.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Memoir of post-battle visits to Gettysburg
> Message-ID: <LDECKGPDMLODKMMFANMBAEEKDHAA.pennmardel at mchsi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> <<That "large body of cavalry" would seem to have either been McIntosh's
> or Gregg's brigade since on the 4th, Pleasanton had told Kilpatrick to take
> his division to Emmittsburg where he would find Huey's Brigade waiting,
> which had been brought over from Westminster to be ready to pounce on any
> of Lee's trains moving south via Hagerstown (Coddington, Pg. 544). Given
> that Huey had already deployed that far south, it would seem strange that
> the brigade would then be pulled all the way back to Gettysburg simply to
> report to Gregg for orders.  But with Pleasanton, one never knows.
>       However, it would seem that the "large body of cavalry" must have
> been one of Gregg's brigades and Shantz had the wrong date of July 8 for
> when he saw the cavalry.Matt,
> 
> My guess also is that it may have be part of Gregg's division.>>
> 
> Matt,
> 
> Thanks for your input on this.
> 
> You may be right about that, since Irvin Gregg's brigade captured a large
> number of Rebel prisoners that were straggling along the Chambersburg Road,
> and these had to be escorted back to Gettysburg.  What Dr. Schantz may have
> seen were these cavalry contingents of Gregg's getting ready to return to
> the brigade.  There are reports of this activity in the OR.
> 
> Regards, Tom Ryan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 50
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:05:05 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <glxbmcx9fnue0red1yxk7jjo.1327698185609 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Well, I learned the term" grunt" in the army while not serving in the war Dennis, Bob (nor I for that matter) do not feel us appropriate for the group.Who really wants to through those arguments again?
> Anyway, I apologize for assuming that the term "grunt" was coined in the army.
> But you have to agree that it sounds a bit too sophisticated for a marine.
> 
> OK. I went a long way to get there, but it was worth it. :>)))
> 
> My grandson is, discharged and he and his wife have just started construction of our third great grand child.
> Thanks.
> Jack
> George, for the sane of full disclosure,
> The finest CO I everservvrd under was a former Marine. He taught me as much about service as my father did about life.
> Probably an anomaly.
> 
> 
> George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Marines coined the term "Grunt" in the early 60s (before that conflict Dennis doesn't want us to mention) when just about everyone in the Army was mechanized. That's a fact, Jack!
> >
> >Is your grandson still on active duty?
> >
> >Semper Fi,
> >
> >George
> >26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> >On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> I thought you were a Marine?
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Jack
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> >> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:40 AM
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Rookies talk about strategy, professionals talk logistics!
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> 
> >>> George
> >>> A Grunt
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 9:54, dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> Lee could not have drawn the AoP away from their supply base by going North.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The Union had developed a series of permanent and temporary supply depots.  I did quite a bit of study on City Point.  Montgomery Meigs was the QM General, Ingals was the AoP QM chief.  As the AoP moved across Virginia throughout the war, the War Department closed and opened temporary depots - city point was the best example.  Permanent depots were just informed by telegraph or other means on how to push supplies and to where they would go.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The greatest example of Union Supply efficiency was the mail for Sherman's Army.  Sherman had not informed the war department on the exact timeand place of where he would emerge at the end of his march.  His troops received the fisrt batch of mail within the week, I think actually four days but less than seven is good enough for arguement's sake.  The Union Supply system was that good.
> >>>> 
> >>>> At Petersburg, if I was a regimental QM, I could request a set of shoes size 16EE.  The request would flow up the chain of command (QM side) through the AoP to Ingals office, as the now Chief of QM for the Armies Operating around Richmond (or whatever title he had).  His department was operating out of the Epp plantation house overlooking the City Point Warfs.  If the clothing warehouses did not have the set of shoes, the request was passed to Meigs HQ in DC, where the request would be sent to the depot for clothing (lets say Boston for instance) if Boston Depot did not have the 16EE, they would contact the manufacturer and several sets of 16EE shoes were made, sent to Boston, forward an intermediate depot if one was assigned for low priority routine deliveries or possibly put on a ship right to City Point if the request was given a higher priority. Remember City Point was, during the seige, the busiest port in the world.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Conferderate Soldiers who for months smelled fresh bread being delivered to Union troops at Petersburg were in awe when they were proceessed through City Point as prisoners.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Again that is Lee not truly understanding what he was up against.  His men were supplying themselves for two years on Union good (sadlles, blankets, weapons, clothing, wagons, cannon, anything they could pick up) the supply never stopped.  The wagon train that Stuart captured had 250 brand new wagons with brand new bits, straps, harnesses,  theat stuff was being crated at record pace.
> >>>> 
> >>>> As Lee was running out of serviceable horses, Meade had more than he could use.  Hunt was able to create a secret wagon train filled with ammunition for a big fight.  The corperate Union Army, that was prosecuting the war strategically was light years ahead of the CSA.  Only Sherman's Army during his Georgia was the only Union Army that ever was completely severed fro the Union supply system.
> >>>> 
> >>>> VR
> >>>> Don Herko (US Army Loggie)
> >>>> 
> >>>> --- Tom Barrett <tbarrett21 at cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> From a military standpoint, I think he wanted to draw the AoP far enough so
> >>>>> that they were separated from their supply and support bases and far enough
> >>>>> that they would be tired, scattered, and not able to concentrate
> >>>>> effectively.  Drawing them toward Harrisburg was a good plan, but spreading
> >>>>> them out would have been even better, so the AoP Corps couldn't quickly
> >>>>> support one another.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I think he figured that his forces would be more rested and better
> >>>>> concentrated than the AoP, and that he'd pick off and defeat the Union units
> >>>>> as they came north.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> As it turned out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough, and the AoP was well
> >>>>> organized, well supplied, and was able to concentrate effectively.  For
> >>>>> whatever reason, Lee chose to attack anyway.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> TB
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>   >
> >>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union
> >>>>> forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have  sent
> >>>>> forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad  infrastructure, damage
> >>>>> manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and  generally create further
> >>>>> panic in the north, but holding the city was  never an option. I believe
> >>>>> there was a relatively small window of  opportunity for the ANV to operate
> >>>>> in Pennsylvania.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that Lee
> >>>>> did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and  take it.
> >>>>>>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>>>>>> My
> >>>>>>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I
> >>>>> don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed it.
> >>>>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>>>> K.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>>>> -to unsubscribe
> >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>>> -----
> >>>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>>> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4768 - Release Date: 01/26/12
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
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> >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 51
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:44:34 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <9yj2wdtxuhdm5c0vw1gw28et.1327700674328 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> You were correct last week and that has not changed.
> Others still disagree.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>
> >Sometimes I
> >wonder whether Lee headed
> >North, besides the tried and true reasons, to stave off the chance of losing
> >some of his command to the West (Vicksburg especially). Commanders don't
> >like to lose troops to another command, maybe an ego thing ;-D. Not saying
> >Lee's best interests for the Confederacy were not in his heart, but the
> >acceleration of his movements after meeting with Davis was  (to me) a bit
> >suspect. <<<<<<
> >
> >I had posted the above last week - thought I was one of the few that felt 
> >this way. Just a theory - but it's almost like "See ya Mr. Davis - we're 
> >leaving now - I'll be in touch". A few weeks later, Lee advises that he has 
> >to cut off communications back to Richmond due partially to manpower 
> >shortages. As an aside - back to Harrisburg - there has to be some strong 
> >reasons that initially Lee is looking at Harrisburg - Ewell at Carlisle - 
> >Early/Gordon at Wrightsville - another words, a full Corps north & south of 
> >Harrisburg (whether to entice the AOP, raid the city, or invest it for a 
> >short time). I join with the "Lee was decoying the AOP  to hasten north" on 
> >the premise that supposedly Lee felt the AOP wasn't moving fast enough north 
> >for him (Stuart not communicating same to Lee). Lee was in the land of 
> >plenty, but subsisting 75-80,000  men would only go so far in PA. 
> >Logistically, that's a long stretch from PA, back through the Shenandoah to 
> >VA. I realize that's oversimplifying the matter, but that's how I see it, I 
> >truly think he would have been better taking another foray into Maryland - 
> >but I don't wish to go into what if territory.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Tom B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message----- 
> >From: Andy Mills
> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:23 PM
> >To: GDG
> >Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> >
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >It makes perfect sense though if the real motivation was simply to keep his 
> >precious ANV together and not have part of it shipped off to Vicksburg.  Lee 
> >couldn't be straight with Davis about this and came up with the crop story 
> >as a sidebar to his real motivations.  When asked why troops shouldn't be 
> >sent to Vicksburg, Lee couldn't simply state "because I don't want to send 
> >them."  He had to present a valid case for keeping them assigned to his 
> >army.
> >
> >Just don't ask me to prove this, but this is my belief of the true reason he 
> >invaded the North - to keep the ANV intact, the army he had "nurtured and 
> >created" (yes, I am aware technically the army existed prior to his command, 
> >but no one in the Confederacy remembers an army pre June 1862).
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> >On Behalf Of dherko at kc.rr.com
> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:00 PM
> >To: GDG
> >Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> >
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >John,
> >
> >that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to 
> >support.
> >
> >Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not 
> >possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly 
> >protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> >
> >As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince 
> >Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on 
> >July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had 
> >surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> >
> >Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace 
> >Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia 
> >and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of 
> >losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, 
> >did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he 
> >protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> >
> >VR
> >Don
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
> > -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives 
> >
> >
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 52
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:41:55 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <7l5hrmjrjohetujucpamhlaw.1327700515603 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Of course this was after Lee shot down the initial plan to reinforce the west.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >It's a fact that Lee spent two days in Richmond (I think it was two; I'm on a trip and away from my books) with Davis going over options. It's also a fact that Davis and his entire cabinet (with one vote against--that being Reagan, the postmaster general and a pretty smart guy) voted in favor of the move into Pennsylvania. These were not shy men, nor men of limited intelligence, but rather men of considerable experience, some of whom had vested interests in the West. I don't think Lee pulled a fast one.
> >
> >When you consider the options carefully, sending troops west was not a good idea. I have explained why before and would be happy to do so again after this trip. Sending Lee and troops that way would have been a lot better, but then who would replace Lee. I think the fundamental problem at that point in the war was that the Confederacy lacked sufficient competent top-level commanders. This was less a troop-strength problem than a find-a-good-aggressive-commander problem.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >George
> >26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> >On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:33 PM, John Grim wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Esteemed Members
> >> 
> >> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 53
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:06:50 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> Message-ID: <j4ovmhmk7h2henfvi5ubf3wq.1327698410614 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Then you should know better.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> 
> George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >I have it nearly memorized! Coddington, Smoddington; Southall Freeman was masterful! Have you read his George Washington biography? Magnificent (as long as you have six months to spare)!
> >
> >Semper Fi, Do or Die!
> >
> >George
> >26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> >On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> George, I think you need to review Lee and His Lieutenants.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Jack
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> >> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:52 AM
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> I believe so--and I think he was flat-on-his-back sick that time.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Andy Mills wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Isn't this the same reason claimed he failed to attack on the North Anna in 1864?
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of John Lawrence
> >>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:21 PM
> >>> To: GDG
> >>> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> >>> 
> >>> I cannot see an army commander not functioning because of health, unless he was comatose.
> >>> If he was healthy enough to tell Longstreet to quit his whining, he was healthy enough to command.
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Jack
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
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> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 54
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:47:02 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <st59o8xdtc0ad2uoy5srdlq7.1327700822148 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Nice rebuttal.
> If you are going to light candles for me, I prefer blue ones.
> They cost more.
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Jack,
> >
> >You've slipped over the rhetorical edge again! I have a toll-free counseling number I can give you.
> >
> >Praying for your recovery,
> >
> >George
> >26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> >On Jan 27, 2012, at 2:12 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Lee was a Lee of Virginia. 
> >> Hi people had been of Virginia be fire their was a United States. They hailed from a place so remote it was once bombaeded by pirates.
> >> To the Lees, Virginia WAS their country.
> >> Lee entered service in the Confederacy not out of treason nor did he hold allegiance to the Confederacy. He e was a Lee OF Virginia. Lee entered the service of the Confederacy to serve Virginia only.
> >> So when Lee took his forces north, he did it only to spare Virginia. He cared not if the Confederacy died. 
> >> Virginia must be spared.
> >> Regards,
> >> Jack
> >> 
> >> dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> John,
> >>> 
> >>> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> >>> 
> >>> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> >>> 
> >>> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> >>> 
> >>> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> >>> 
> >>> VR
> >>> Don
> >>> 
> >>> ---- John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> Esteemed Members
> >>>> 
> >>>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >>>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >>>> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >>>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >>>> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >>>> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >>>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >>>> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >>>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >>>> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >>>> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >>>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >>>> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >>>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >>>> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >>>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >>>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >>>> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >>>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >>>> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
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> >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 55
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:40:44 -0600
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <kmxt23tfm2aeic4r2o5mq8l2.1327721565507 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> No, I was talking about the group.
> Forget who they are, but they have a group.
> I forget the names. I joined the group as a favor because one of them would set up as a vendor at the muster. I think Margaret hails from that direction.
> Maybe she knows who they are.
> Regards.
> Jack
> 
> 
> CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Nuttin in the Camp Curtin sites.
> > 
> >There are interesting pics if you enter Ft Couch.
> > 
> >Also found a good BBQ restaurant in Harrisburg.
> > 
> >A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >Peter  
> >
> > 
> >In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:56:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> >jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> >
> >Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> >You know, I have driven by multiple times but I  have never gone down there.
> >
> >We have (or had) an esteemed member a  couple of years ago who offered the 
> >tour; dunnoo if he is still with  us.
> >
> >I'll betchee he can give a more coherent story than I can. some of  that 
> >stuff comes from vaguly recalled memories of the Camp Curtain monthly  
> >magazine.
> >
> >You might try the camp curtin group, come to think of  it.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >jack
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> >To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 7:04 PM
> >Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -  Harrisburg
> >
> >
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> THNX  Jack-
> >>
> >> Are the pits extant?
> >>
> >> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated  1/27/2012 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com  writes:
> >>
> >> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Ft.  Couch was erected for the  emergency.
> >>
> >> IIRC, it was part  of Halleck,s plan to raise a national  militia and man
> >>  this
> >> and other defenses.
> >> It was built by free blacks an   manned by whatecer was at hand.
> >> It was supposed to simply cover  the  approaches to anotherr fort on the
> >> river-name escapes  me.
> >> Couch kept  the main body across the river and I am no sure a  crossing v
> >>
> >> I am doing  this by memory, but the civilian  population was just not
> >> concerned enough  to actually join this  militia and defe n harrisburg. 
> >> Most
> >> reinforcements  came  from a new york militia that was not all that
> >>  effective.
> >>
> >> Halleck  was unwilling to release federal  troops, even Pennsylvania 
> >units,
> >> and  pretty much left the  defenses up to the Governor.
> >>
> >> He did authorize the   raising of emergency colored units for the 
> >> emergency.
> >> One  unit was raised  and were put to work defending the Wrightsville
> >>  bridge.
> >> This is the only  colored unit that was involved in the  Campaign.
> >>
> >> The colored troops were  put together with some  white volunteers and put 
> >> to
> >> worg digging gun   pits.
> >> The white guys apparently resented being relegated to do  colored  wpork,
> >> and
> >> just left.
> >> The pits were  abandoned after the bridge was  burned.
> >>
> >>  Regards,
> >>
> >> Jack
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>  From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> >> To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >> Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012  3:24 PM
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -   Harrisburg
> >>
> >>
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >>> Good post  Andy-
> >>>
> >>> Was Ft  Couch prepared just for the '63 invasion or had  it been   there
> >>> before?  How extensive was it?    Was it  upgraded with more  cannon 
> >after
> >>> the
> >>>   invasion?  I've heard of it but know nothing about  it.     Were there
> >>> covering
> >>> batteries to guard it    flanks?
> >>>
> >>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> >>>  Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In a  message dated 1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> >>>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >>>
> >>>  Esteemed   GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I don't think Lee ever planned  or  envisioned  reaching so far as
> >> Baltimore
> >>> or   Philadelphia.  I think he realized  Harrisburg was about as far as  
> >>> he
> >>> could go.  He wasn't going to get there   with the AOP in  his rear and
> >> even
> >>> if
> >>> he  conducted a Cannae type battle, he  is  still forced to retreat back 
> > 
> >>> to
> >>> Virginia for the inability to  continue  an  advance (or even holding the
> >>> ground
> >>>   gained).
> >>>
> >>> I think we see this  as part of the  reason for  Pickett's Charge.  He
> >>> didn't
> >>>  have the  capabilities  to disengage and fight another battle as his  
> >army
> >>> was almost out   of war material to continue.   A battle that occurs even
> >>> further  north  exacerbates  this need and regardless of its outcome, Lee
> >> is
> >>>  still
> >>> forced to  fall back.
> >>>
> >>>   However:  a direct attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend  with  
> >Fort
> >>> Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at the  time  [correct  me if
> >> wrong],
> >>> which
> >>>  is a great little site with some  earthworks still  visible if you  ever
> >> get
> >>> a chance to  visit).  I am not sure how  well  manned it would be, but a
> >>>  crossing can't occur  until this fort is taken, at  least in my
> >> estimation
> >>>  as it
> >>> had a commanding view of any river    crossing.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>  -----Original  Message-----
> >>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> >>>   [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> >>> On Behalf  Of  John  Grim
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:33  PM
> >>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
> >>> Subject: GDG-  Lee - Harrisburg
> >>>
> >>>  Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
> >>> Esteemed  Members
> >>>
> >>> Most  of us know the usual facts  of Lee's advance  in June  towards
> >>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that   believes Lee went north to
> >> take
> >>> the war
> >>> away  from Virginia so  crops could  be harvested and replanted and  that
> >>> troops
> >>>  might be drawn away from Grant  and  that there might be political
> >>> advantage
> >>> to  be gained.  I cannot picture  Lee  being successful east of  
> >Harrisburg
> >>> with the river at his back and  having  to  contend with Philadelphia,
> >>> Baltimore,
> >>>  Washington  and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union 
> >>>  army
> >>> gathering around him.  Yes, militia  units were  not  regulars but they 
> >>> can
> >>> picket railroads,  bridges, guard POW's  and  generally get in the way.
> >>>  Lee's
> >>> communications and supply  lines  would be  extended further and further
> >> and
> >>> he
> >>>   would be further away from the  protection of the mountains and  their
> >>> passes.
> >>> As it was it took him 10  days to  get back to  Virginia from Gettysburg.
> >>> He may have been able  to  live off the  land near Harrisburg but where
> >>>  would
> >>> his munitions  and
> >>> replacements come  from??  How long could he stay away from  Richmond 
> >with
> >>>  only Corse and Jenkins covering that area?  I just  don't see it but  I 
> >am
> >>> willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's   operation was not a go for
> >>> broke.
> >>> He had limited   goals
> >>> and limited expectations.    Getting his wounded  back  to Virginia would
> >>> probably have been impossible   from east of  Harrisburg and he probably
> >>> would not have  gotten his Gettysburg   wounded  back.
> >>>
> >>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>>    -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  
> >for
> >>>  Archives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  
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> >>>    -to unsubscribe
> >>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  
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> >>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  
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> >>   -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
> >>
> >>
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> >_arthes.com  
> >>  -to unsubscribe
> >>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>  
> >
> >
> >
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> >  -to unsubscribe
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 56
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:55:03 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> Message-ID: <B823399F-CD75-4B81-97A5-3A3F77E0860A at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I'm on a trip just now (without Freeman). I recall Lee was flat on his back at the North Anna but that may not be from Freeman. Can you please elaborate?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:06 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Then you should know better.
> > Regards,
> > Jack
> > 
> > 
> > George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> I have it nearly memorized! Coddington, Smoddington; Southall Freeman was masterful! Have you read his George Washington biography? Magnificent (as long as you have six months to spare)!
> >> 
> >> Semper Fi, Do or Die!
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> George, I think you need to review Lee and His Lieutenants.
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> 
> >>> Jack
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> >>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:52 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I believe so--and I think he was flat-on-his-back sick that time.
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> 
> >>> George
> >>> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >>> 
> >>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Andy Mills wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> Isn't this the same reason claimed he failed to attack on the North Anna in 1864?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of John Lawrence
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:21 PM
> >>>> To: GDG
> >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- "Lee's Illness Lost Gettysburg"
> >>>> 
> >>>> I cannot see an army commander not functioning because of health, unless he was comatose.
> >>>> If he was healthy enough to tell Longstreet to quit his whining, he was healthy enough to command.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Jack
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
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> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 57
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:59:33 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <763F42DD-8542-44D4-934F-65175136D5E9 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Candles, witchdoctors, novenas, Ernest Ainsley--I've got everything and everybody working on this.
> 
> Deeply concerned,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:47 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Nice rebuttal.
> > If you are going to light candles for me, I prefer blue ones.
> > They cost more.
> > Regards,
> > Jack
> > 
> > George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Jack,
> >> 
> >> You've slipped over the rhetorical edge again! I have a toll-free counseling number I can give you.
> >> 
> >> Praying for your recovery,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 2:12 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Lee was a Lee of Virginia. 
> >>> Hi people had been of Virginia be fire their was a United States. They hailed from a place so remote it was once bombaeded by pirates.
> >>> To the Lees, Virginia WAS their country.
> >>> Lee entered service in the Confederacy not out of treason nor did he hold allegiance to the Confederacy. He e was a Lee OF Virginia. Lee entered the service of the Confederacy to serve Virginia only.
> >>> So when Lee took his forces north, he did it only to spare Virginia. He cared not if the Confederacy died. 
> >>> Virginia must be spared.
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Jack
> >>> 
> >>> dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> John,
> >>>> 
> >>>> that is exactly the shortsidedness of Lee's strategy he convinced Davis to support.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Crops are planted in the Spring and harvested in the fall.  Lee could not possibly stay up North for that length of time.  He could not have possibly protected Virginia's corps for an enitre planitng season.
> >>>> 
> >>>> As for Vicksburg.  By late June, Vicksburg was gone.  Once Lee convince Davis of a course of action, the garrison's fate was sealed.  Had Lee won on July 3rd (before he really planned to fight Meade) Pemberton had surrendered, he was just trying to negotiate a better deal.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Until Grant came East, there was not a Northern General that could lace Lee's boots on the tactical battlefield.  Lee however, fought for Virginia and Vriginia alone.  He completely failed to understand the implications of losing Vicksburg.  He was resistant to send troops to the Carolina coast, did not want Longstreet to go to Chickamauga.  He was myopic on Strategy, he protected Virginia and Virginia was in the fight until the end.
> >>>> 
> >>>> VR
> >>>> Don
> >>>> 
> >>>> ---- John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>> Esteemed Members
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >>>>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >>>>> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >>>>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >>>>> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >>>>> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >>>>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >>>>> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >>>>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >>>>> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >>>>> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >>>>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >>>>> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >>>>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >>>>> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >>>>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >>>>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >>>>> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >>>>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >>>>> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 58
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:59:31 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <34a6d.310bd7db.3c556753 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Yes I found a couple websites with them but nothing related to  Ft Couch.
> 
> The pics I found were pretty good.  A rather substantial  set of 
> earthworks.  Thank Gawd they were preserved.
> 
> I was surprised that it was on the western shore of the Susq.  R.  I 
> thought it would have on the east5 side S. of Hrsbg close to the  river.  They 
> mentioned that there was a Ft Washington on the east side in  what is now 
> Hrsbg.  Apparently the hill Ft Couch sat on was higher than Ft  Wash and could 
> threaten that fort of the Confs got it so that was the reason for  it being.
> 
> I wonder how close the Confs got to it while they were up  there.  Don't  
> recall any storiues of the fort firing it's  guns.
> 
> P.S.  I wanna go find that BBQ place.  It looked  good.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/28/2012 9:50:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> No, I was talking about the group.
> Forget who  they are, but they have a group.
> I forget the names. I joined the group as  a favor because one of them 
> would set up as a vendor at the muster. I think  Margaret hails from that 
> direction.
> Maybe she knows who they  are.
> Regards.
> Jack
> 
> 
> CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> 
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >Nuttin in the Camp  Curtin sites.
> > 
> >There are interesting pics if you enter Ft  Couch.
> > 
> >Also found a good BBQ restaurant in Harrisburg.
>> >A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >Peter  
> >
>> >In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:56:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> >jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> >
> >Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> >You know, I have driven by multiple times but I  have  never gone down 
> there.
> >
> >We have (or had) an esteemed member  a  couple of years ago who offered 
> the 
> >tour; dunnoo if he is  still with  us.
> >
> >I'll betchee he can give a more coherent  story than I can. some of  that 
> >stuff comes from vaguly recalled  memories of the Camp Curtain monthly  
> >magazine.
> >
> >You might try the camp curtin group, come to  think of  it.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >jack
> >-----  Original Message ----- 
> >From:   <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> >To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >Sent:  Friday, January 27, 2012 7:04  PM
> >Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -  Harrisburg
> >
> >
> >>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> THNX   Jack-
> >>
> >> Are the pits extant?
> >>
> >>  A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> >>  Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated  1/27/2012  8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com   writes:
> >>
> >> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> >> Ft.  Couch was erected for the   emergency.
> >>
> >> IIRC, it was part  of Halleck,s plan  to raise a national  militia and 
> man
> >>  this
> >>  and other defenses.
> >> It was built by free blacks an    manned by whatecer was at hand.
> >> It was supposed to simply  cover  the  approaches to anotherr fort on the
> >>  river-name escapes  me.
> >> Couch kept  the main body across  the river and I am no sure a  crossing 
> v
> >>
> >> I am  doing  this by memory, but the civilian  population was just  not
> >> concerned enough  to actually join this  militia and  defe n harrisburg. 
> >> Most
> >> reinforcements   came  from a new york militia that was not all that
> >>   effective.
> >>
> >> Halleck  was unwilling to release  federal  troops, even Pennsylvania 
> >units,
> >> and   pretty much left the  defenses up to the  Governor.
> >>
> >> He did authorize the   raising of  emergency colored units for the 
> >> emergency.
> >> One   unit was raised  and were put to work defending the  Wrightsville
> >>  bridge.
> >> This is the only   colored unit that was involved in the  Campaign.
> >>
> >>  The colored troops were  put together with some  white volunteers  and 
> put 
> >> to
> >> worg digging gun    pits.
> >> The white guys apparently resented being relegated to  do  colored  
> wpork,
> >> and
> >> just  left.
> >> The pits were  abandoned after the bridge was   burned.
> >>
> >>  Regards,
> >>
> >>  Jack
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>  From:   <CWMHTours at aol.com>
> >> To:   <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >> Sent:  Friday, January 27,  2012  3:24 PM
> >> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee -    Harrisburg
> >>
> >>
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
> >>> Good post   Andy-
> >>>
> >>> Was Ft  Couch prepared just for the  '63 invasion or had  it been  
> there
> >>>  before?  How extensive was it?    Was it  upgraded with  more  cannon 
> >after
> >>>  the
> >>>   invasion?  I've heard of it but know  nothing about  it.     Were 
> there
> >>>  covering
> >>> batteries to guard it     flanks?
> >>>
> >>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
> >>>   Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In a  message dated  1/27/2012 12:48:10 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> >>>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> >>>
> >>>   Esteemed   GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I don't think Lee  ever planned  or  envisioned  reaching so far as
> >>  Baltimore
> >>> or   Philadelphia.  I think he  realized  Harrisburg was about as far 
> as  
> >>>  he
> >>> could go.  He wasn't going to get there    with the AOP in  his rear and
> >> even
> >>>  if
> >>> he  conducted a Cannae type battle, he  is   still forced to retreat 
> back 
> > 
> >>> to
> >>>  Virginia for the inability to  continue  an  advance (or even  holding 
> the
> >>> ground
> >>>    gained).
> >>>
> >>> I think we see this  as part of  the  reason for  Pickett's Charge.  He
> >>>  didn't
> >>>  have the  capabilities  to disengage  and fight another battle as his  
> >army
> >>> was almost  out   of war material to continue.   A battle that occurs  
> even
> >>> further  north  exacerbates  this need and  regardless of its outcome, 
> Lee
> >> is
> >>>   still
> >>> forced to  fall  back.
> >>>
> >>>   However:  a direct  attack on Harrisburg also had  to contend  with  
> >Fort
> >>> Couch (I think called Hummel's Heights at  the  time  [correct  me if
> >> wrong],
> >>>  which
> >>>  is a great little site with some  earthworks  still  visible if you  
> ever
> >> get
> >>> a chance  to  visit).  I am not sure how  well  manned it would be,  
> but a
> >>>  crossing can't occur  until this fort is  taken, at  least in my
> >> estimation
> >>>  as  it
> >>> had a commanding view of any river     crossing.
> >>>
> >>>  Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>  -----Original   Message-----
> >>> From:    gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> >>>    [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> >>> On Behalf   Of  John  Grim
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012  12:33  PM
> >>> To:    gettysburg at arthes.com
> >>> Subject: GDG-  Lee -  Harrisburg
> >>>
> >>>  Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
> >>> Esteemed   Members
> >>>
> >>> Most  of us know the usual  facts  of Lee's advance  in June  towards
> >>>  Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side  that   believes Lee  went north 
> to
> >> take
> >>> the war
> >>>  away  from Virginia so  crops could  be harvested and replanted  and  
> that
> >>> troops
> >>>  might be drawn  away from Grant  and  that there might be political
> >>>  advantage
> >>> to  be gained.  I cannot picture   Lee  being successful east of  
> >Harrisburg
> >>>  with the river at his back and  having  to  contend with  Philadelphia,
> >>> Baltimore,
> >>>   Washington  and its forts as well as  the various units of the Union  
> >>>  army
> >>> gathering around him.  Yes,  militia  units were  not  regulars but 
> they 
> >>>  can
> >>> picket railroads,  bridges, guard POW's   and  generally get in the way.
> >>>   Lee's
> >>> communications and supply  lines  would  be  extended further and 
> further
> >> and
> >>>  he
> >>>   would be further away from the  protection  of the mountains and  
> their
> >>> passes.
> >>> As it  was it took him 10  days to  get back to  Virginia from  
> Gettysburg.
> >>> He may have been able  to  live off  the  land near Harrisburg but where
> >>>   would
> >>> his munitions  and
> >>> replacements  come  from??  How long could he stay away from  Richmond  
> >with
> >>>  only Corse and Jenkins covering that  area?  I just  don't see it but  
> I 
> >am
> >>>  willing to consider other opinions.  Lee's   operation was not  a go 
> for
> >>> broke.
> >>> He had limited    goals
> >>> and limited expectations.    Getting his  wounded  back  to Virginia 
> would
> >>> probably have been  impossible   from east of  Harrisburg and he  
> probably
> >>> would not have  gotten his  Gettysburg   wounded  back.
> >>>
> >>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
> >>>   -to unsubscribe  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  
> >for
> >>>   Archives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
> >>>   -to unsubscribe
> >>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
> >>>    -to unsubscribe
> >>>    http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for   Archives
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
> >>    -to unsubscribe
> >>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
> >>
> >>
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> >_arthes.com  
> >>  -to unsubscribe
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> >
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 59
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:10:47 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <EB86B02D-067C-4F1E-B094-1036D685981F at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Because it wasn't a good plan. Davis, a man from the West, no fool, and quite capable of making his own decisions, saw this. I wish you could too!
> 
> I will convince you--someday, someday, someday....
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:41 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Of course this was after Lee shot down the initial plan to reinforce the west.
> > Regards,
> > Jack
> > 
> > George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> It's a fact that Lee spent two days in Richmond (I think it was two; I'm on a trip and away from my books) with Davis going over options. It's also a fact that Davis and his entire cabinet (with one vote against--that being Reagan, the postmaster general and a pretty smart guy) voted in favor of the move into Pennsylvania. These were not shy men, nor men of limited intelligence, but rather men of considerable experience, some of whom had vested interests in the West. I don't think Lee pulled a fast one.
> >> 
> >> When you consider the options carefully, sending troops west was not a good idea. I have explained why before and would be happy to do so again after this trip. Sending Lee and troops that way would have been a lot better, but then who would replace Lee. I think the fundamental problem at that point in the war was that the Confederacy lacked sufficient competent top-level commanders. This was less a troop-strength problem than a find-a-good-aggressive-commander problem.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:33 PM, John Grim wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> Esteemed Members
> >>> 
> >>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> >>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to take
> >>> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted and
> >>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> >>> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being successful
> >>> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend with
> >>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the various
> >>> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were not
> >>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and generally
> >>> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be extended
> >>> further and further and he would be further away from the protection of the
> >>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back to
> >>> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land near
> >>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??  How
> >>> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins covering
> >>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> >>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited goals
> >>> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> >>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably would
> >>> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 60
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:17:45 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb0tb3hkHEJqmenJdxg5ZZB314JtgQMZTyu1f+WSBC1B2w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Esteemed Members
> 
> Why did Lee not want to send troops west after his victory at
> Chancellorsville??  I know I'm being very simplistic but sometimes simple
> can be the answer.  Lee was the commander of the ANV not the overall
> Confederate commander.  Why would he want to diminish his own army and get
> mixed up with what was going on west of him???  Lee probably had a decent
> idea of what reinforcements might be available to him along the east coast
> and how competent some of those generals might be.  Also, he had lost
> Jackson and that was a problem.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:10 AM, George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Because it wasn't a good plan. Davis, a man from the West, no fool, and
> > quite capable of making his own decisions, saw this. I wish you could too!
> >
> > I will convince you--someday, someday, someday....
> >
> > George
> > 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:41 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > > Of course this was after Lee shot down the initial plan to reinforce the
> > west.
> > > Regards,
> > > Jack
> > >
> > > George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > >> It's a fact that Lee spent two days in Richmond (I think it was two;
> > I'm on a trip and away from my books) with Davis going over options. It's
> > also a fact that Davis and his entire cabinet (with one vote against--that
> > being Reagan, the postmaster general and a pretty smart guy) voted in favor
> > of the move into Pennsylvania. These were not shy men, nor men of limited
> > intelligence, but rather men of considerable experience, some of whom had
> > vested interests in the West. I don't think Lee pulled a fast one.
> > >>
> > >> When you consider the options carefully, sending troops west was not a
> > good idea. I have explained why before and would be happy to do so again
> > after this trip. Sending Lee and troops that way would have been a lot
> > better, but then who would replace Lee. I think the fundamental problem at
> > that point in the war was that the Confederacy lacked sufficient competent
> > top-level commanders. This was less a troop-strength problem than a
> > find-a-good-aggressive-commander problem.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> George
> > >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> > >>
> > >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 12:33 PM, John Grim wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > >>> Esteemed Members
> > >>>
> > >>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's advance in June towards
> > >>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to the side that believes Lee went north to
> > take
> > >>> the war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted
> > and
> > >>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that there might be
> > >>> political advantage to be gained.  I cannot picture Lee being
> > successful
> > >>> east of Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend
> > with
> > >>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as well as the
> > various
> > >>> units of the Union army gathering around him.  Yes, militia units were
> > not
> > >>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's and
> > generally
> > >>> get in the way.  Lee's communications and supply lines would be
> > extended
> > >>> further and further and he would be further away from the protection
> > of the
> > >>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it took him 10 days to get back
> > to
> > >>> Virginia from Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land
> > near
> > >>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and replacements come from??
> >  How
> > >>> long could he stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins
> > covering
> > >>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider other
> > >>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for broke.  He had limited
> > goals
> > >>> and limited expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia would
> > >>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he probably
> > would
> > >>> not have gotten his Gettysburg wounded back.
> > >>> ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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> >
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> > unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 61
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:19:47 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <86602FD0-2717-4849-81CB-0A62C707F20D at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> For years I wondered why the Army hated the very idea of a Marine Corps. Then I realized it's simply jealousy. If everybody could be a Marine it wouldn't be the Marines.
> 
> DId you know Pershing kept a brigade of Marine long-service regulars at the port of Brest working as stevedores rather than letting them go to the front?
> 
> I can't stand the AIr Force (even though it's very, very good), but I like the Army--dumb but honest.
> 
> Semper fi,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:05 PM, John Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Well, I learned the term" grunt" in the army while not serving in the war Dennis, Bob (nor I for that matter) do not feel us appropriate for the group.Who really wants to through those arguments again?
> > Anyway, I apologize for assuming that the term "grunt" was coined in the army.
> > But you have to agree that it sounds a bit too sophisticated for a marine.
> > 
> > OK. I went a long way to get there, but it was worth it. :>)))
> > 
> > My grandson is, discharged and he and his wife have just started construction of our third great grand child.
> > Thanks.
> > Jack
> > George, for the sane of full disclosure,
> > The finest CO I everservvrd under was a former Marine. He taught me as much about service as my father did about life.
> > Probably an anomaly.
> > 
> > 
> > George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >> Marines coined the term "Grunt" in the early 60s (before that conflict Dennis doesn't want us to mention) when just about everyone in the Army was mechanized. That's a fact, Jack!
> >> 
> >> Is your grandson still on active duty?
> >> 
> >> Semper Fi,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>> I thought you were a Marine?
> >>> 
> >>> Regards,
> >>> 
> >>> Jack
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> >>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 9:40 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>> Rookies talk about strategy, professionals talk logistics!
> >>>> 
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> 
> >>>> George
> >>>> A Grunt
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 9:54, dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>> Lee could not have drawn the AoP away from their supply base by going North.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The Union had developed a series of permanent and temporary supply depots.  I did quite a bit of study on City Point.  Montgomery Meigs was the QM General, Ingals was the AoP QM chief.  As the AoP moved across Virginia throughout the war, the War Department closed and opened temporary depots - city point was the best example.  Permanent depots were just informed by telegraph or other means on how to push supplies and to where they would go.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> The greatest example of Union Supply efficiency was the mail for Sherman's Army.  Sherman had not informed the war department on the exact timeand place of where he would emerge at the end of his march.  His troops received the fisrt batch of mail within the week, I think actually four days but less than seven is good enough for arguement's sake.  The Union Supply system was that good.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> At Petersburg, if I was a regimental QM, I could request a set of shoes size 16EE.  The request would flow up the chain of command (QM side) through the AoP to Ingals office, as the now Chief of QM for the Armies Operating around Richmond (or whatever title he had).  His department was operating out of the Epp plantation house overlooking the City Point Warfs.  If the clothing warehouses did not have the set of shoes, the request was passed to Meigs HQ in DC, where the request would be sent to the depot for clothing (lets say Boston for instance) if Boston Depot did not have the 16EE, they would contact the manufacturer and several sets of 16EE shoes were made, sent to Boston, forward an intermediate depot if one was assigned for low priority routine deliveries or possibly put on a ship right to City Point if the request was given a higher priority. Remember City Point was, during the seige, the busiest port in the world.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Conferderate Soldiers who for months smelled fresh bread being delivered to Union troops at Petersburg were in awe when they were proceessed through City Point as prisoners.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Again that is Lee not truly understanding what he was up against.  His men were supplying themselves for two years on Union good (sadlles, blankets, weapons, clothing, wagons, cannon, anything they could pick up) the supply never stopped.  The wagon train that Stuart captured had 250 brand new wagons with brand new bits, straps, harnesses,  theat stuff was being crated at record pace.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> As Lee was running out of serviceable horses, Meade had more than he could use.  Hunt was able to create a secret wagon train filled with ammunition for a big fight.  The corperate Union Army, that was prosecuting the war strategically was light years ahead of the CSA.  Only Sherman's Army during his Georgia was the only Union Army that ever was completely severed fro the Union supply system.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> VR
> >>>>> Don Herko (US Army Loggie)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> --- Tom Barrett <tbarrett21 at cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> From a military standpoint, I think he wanted to draw the AoP far enough so
> >>>>>> that they were separated from their supply and support bases and far enough
> >>>>>> that they would be tired, scattered, and not able to concentrate
> >>>>>> effectively.  Drawing them toward Harrisburg was a good plan, but spreading
> >>>>>> them out would have been even better, so the AoP Corps couldn't quickly
> >>>>>> support one another.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I think he figured that his forces would be more rested and better
> >>>>>> concentrated than the AoP, and that he'd pick off and defeat the Union units
> >>>>>> as they came north.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> As it turned out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough, and the AoP was well
> >>>>>> organized, well supplied, and was able to concentrate effectively.  For
> >>>>>> whatever reason, Lee chose to attack anyway.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> TB
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>>>> I tend to favor the notion that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw Union
> >>>>>> forces out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have  sent
> >>>>>> forces into the city, primarily to destroy railroad  infrastructure, damage
> >>>>>> manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and  generally create further
> >>>>>> panic in the north, but holding the city was  never an option. I believe
> >>>>>> there was a relatively small window of  opportunity for the ANV to operate
> >>>>>> in Pennsylvania.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith mackenzie wrote:
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>>>>>> I've read a couple of posts where the esteemed member insisted that Lee
> >>>>>> did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and  take it.
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if it was more than one poster or only one several times.
> >>>>>>>>> My
> >>>>>>>>> question is, does anyone think he would have attempted to hold it? I
> >>>>>> don't think anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have missed it.
> >>>>>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>>>>> K.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>>>>> -to unsubscribe
> >>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>>>> -----
> >>>>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>>>> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4768 - Release Date: 01/26/12
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>>> 
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> >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
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> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 62
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:23:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Lee - Harrisburg
> Message-ID: <353ef.71ef80df.3c556cdd at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> If I were Lee I would not want to give up a single man or  cannon.  Always 
> strike with overwhelming force.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/28/2012 10:18:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Esteemed Members
> 
> Why did Lee not want to  send troops west after his victory at
> Chancellorsville??  I know I'm  being very simplistic but sometimes simple
> can be the answer.  Lee was  the commander of the ANV not the overall
> Confederate commander.  Why  would he want to diminish his own army and get
> mixed up with what was going  on west of him???  Lee probably had a decent
> idea of what  reinforcements might be available to him along the east coast
> and how  competent some of those generals might be.  Also, he had lost
> Jackson  and that was a problem.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:10 AM, George  Connell 
> <georgeconnell at mac.com>wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Because it wasn't a good plan. Davis, a man from the  West, no fool, and
> > quite capable of making his own decisions, saw  this. I wish you could 
> too!
> >
> > I will convince you--someday,  someday, someday....
> >
> > George
> > 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:41 PM, John Lawrence  wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > > Of  course this was after Lee shot down the initial plan to reinforce 
> the
> >  west.
> > > Regards,
> > > Jack
> > >
> > > George  Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > >> It's a fact that Lee spent  two days in Richmond (I think it was two;
> > I'm on a trip and away from  my books) with Davis going over options. It's
> > also a fact that Davis  and his entire cabinet (with one vote 
> against--that
> > being Reagan, the  postmaster general and a pretty smart guy) voted in 
> favor
> > of the move  into Pennsylvania. These were not shy men, nor men of limited
> >  intelligence, but rather men of considerable experience, some of whom  
> had
> > vested interests in the West. I don't think Lee pulled a fast  one.
> > >>
> > >> When you consider the options  carefully, sending troops west was not a
> > good idea. I have explained  why before and would be happy to do so again
> > after this trip. Sending  Lee and troops that way would have been a lot
> > better, but then who  would replace Lee. I think the fundamental problem 
> at
> > that point in  the war was that the Confederacy lacked sufficient 
> competent
> > top-level  commanders. This was less a troop-strength problem than a
> >  find-a-good-aggressive-commander problem.
> > >>
> > >>  Regards,
> > >>
> > >> George
> > >>  26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> > >>
> > >> On Jan 27,  2012, at 12:33 PM, John Grim wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > >>> Esteemed Members
> >  >>>
> > >>> Most of us know the usual facts of Lee's  advance in June towards
> > >>> Harrisburg.  I subscribe to  the side that believes Lee went north to
> > take
> > >>> the  war away from Virginia so crops could be harvested and replanted
> >  and
> > >>> that troops might be drawn away from Grant and that  there might be
> > >>> political advantage to be gained.  I  cannot picture Lee being
> > successful
> > >>> east of  Harrisburg with the river at his back and having to contend
> >  with
> > >>> Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington and its forts as  well as the
> > various
> > >>> units of the Union army  gathering around him.  Yes, militia units 
> were
> > not
> >  >>> regulars but they can picket railroads, bridges, guard POW's  and
> > generally
> > >>> get in the way.  Lee's  communications and supply lines would be
> > extended
> > >>>  further and further and he would be further away from the protection
> >  of the
> > >>> mountains and their passes.  As it was it  took him 10 days to get 
> back
> > to
> > >>> Virginia from  Gettysburg.  He may have been able to live off the land
> >  near
> > >>> Harrisburg but where would his munitions and  replacements come from??
> >  How
> > >>> long could he  stay away from Richmond with only Corse and Jenkins
> > covering
> >  >>> that area?  I just don't see it but I am willing to consider  other
> > >>> opinions.  Lee's operation was not a go for  broke.  He had limited
> > goals
> > >>> and limited  expectations.   Getting his wounded back to Virginia 
> would
> >  >>> probably have been impossible from east of Harrisburg and he  
> probably
> > would
> > >>> not have gotten his Gettysburg  wounded back.
> > >>> ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > >>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >  >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > >>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> > >  ----------------
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> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives
> >
> >
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> >  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
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>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 63
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:24:52 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification please.
> Message-ID: <354a2.53fcdfa8.3c556d44 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> Don't come to DC and call the soldiers dumb but honest.   There's soldiers 
> all over the place around you.  In no way would I  guarantee your survival.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/28/2012 10:20:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> For years I wondered why the Army hated the very  idea of a Marine Corps. 
> Then I realized it's simply jealousy. If everybody  could be a Marine it 
> wouldn't be the Marines.
> 
> DId you know Pershing  kept a brigade of Marine long-service regulars at 
> the port of Brest working as  stevedores rather than letting them go to the 
> front?
> 
> I can't stand the  AIr Force (even though it's very, very good), but I like 
> the Army--dumb but  honest.
> 
> Semper fi,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:05 PM, John Lawrence  wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Well, I learned  the term" grunt" in the army while not serving in the 
> war Dennis, Bob (nor I  for that matter) do not feel us appropriate for the 
> group.Who really wants to  through those arguments again?
> > Anyway, I apologize for assuming that  the term "grunt" was coined in the 
> army.
> > But you have to agree that it  sounds a bit too sophisticated for a 
> marine.
> > 
> > OK. I went a  long way to get there, but it was worth it. :>)))
> > 
> > My  grandson is, discharged and he and his wife have just started 
> construction of  our third great grand child.
> > Thanks.
> > Jack
> > George, for  the sane of full disclosure,
> > The finest CO I everservvrd under was a  former Marine. He taught me as 
> much about service as my father did about  life.
> > Probably an anomaly.
> > 
> > 
> > George Connell  <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >> Marines coined the term "Grunt" in the early 60s  (before that conflict 
> Dennis doesn't want us to mention) when just about  everyone in the Army was 
> mechanized. That's a fact, Jack!
> >>  
> >> Is your grandson still on active duty?
> >> 
> >>  Semper Fi,
> >> 
> >> George
> >> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> >> 
> >> On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Jack  Lawrence wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >>> I thought you were a Marine?
> >>>  
> >>> Regards,
> >>> 
> >>>  Jack
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell"  
> <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> >>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012  9:40 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: GDG- A little clarification  please.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> >>>> Rookies talk about strategy,  professionals talk logistics!
> >>>> 
> >>>>  Regards,
> >>>> 
> >>>> George
> >>>> A  Grunt
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 9:54,  dherko at kc.rr.com wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> >>>>> Lee could not have drawn the  AoP away from their supply base by 
> going North.
> >>>>>  
> >>>>> The Union had developed a series of permanent and  temporary supply 
> depots.  I did quite a bit of study on City Point.   Montgomery Meigs was the 
> QM General, Ingals was the AoP QM chief.  As the  AoP moved across Virginia 
> throughout the war, the War Department closed and  opened temporary depots 
> - city point was the best example.  Permanent  depots were just informed by 
> telegraph or other means on how to push supplies  and to where they would go.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>  The greatest example of Union Supply efficiency was the mail for 
> Sherman's  Army.  Sherman had not informed the war department on the exact 
> timeand  place of where he would emerge at the end of his march.  His troops  
> received the fisrt batch of mail within the week, I think actually four days  
> but less than seven is good enough for arguement's sake.  The Union  Supply 
> system was that good.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>  At Petersburg, if I was a regimental QM, I could request a set of 
> shoes size  16EE.  The request would flow up the chain of command (QM side) 
> through  the AoP to Ingals office, as the now Chief of QM for the Armies 
> Operating  around Richmond (or whatever title he had).  His department was 
> operating  out of the Epp plantation house overlooking the City Point Warfs.  If 
> the  clothing warehouses did not have the set of shoes, the request was 
> passed to  Meigs HQ in DC, where the request would be sent to the depot for 
> clothing  (lets say Boston for instance) if Boston Depot did not have the 16EE, 
> they  would contact the manufacturer and several sets of 16EE shoes were 
> made, sent  to Boston, forward an intermediate depot if one was assigned for low 
> priority  routine deliveries or possibly put on a ship right to City Point 
> if the  request was given a higher priority. Remember City Point was, during 
> the  seige, the busiest port in the world.
> >>>>>  
> >>>>> Conferderate Soldiers who for months smelled fresh  bread being 
> delivered to Union troops at Petersburg were in awe when they were  proceessed 
> through City Point as prisoners.
> >>>>>  
> >>>>> Again that is Lee not truly understanding what he was  up against.  
> His men were supplying themselves for two years on Union  good (sadlles, 
> blankets, weapons, clothing, wagons, cannon, anything they  could pick up) the 
> supply never stopped.  The wagon train that Stuart  captured had 250 brand 
> new wagons with brand new bits, straps,  harnesses,  theat stuff was being 
> crated at record  pace.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> As Lee was running out  of serviceable horses, Meade had more than he 
> could use.  Hunt was able  to create a secret wagon train filled with 
> ammunition for a big fight.   The corperate Union Army, that was prosecuting the 
> war strategically was light  years ahead of the CSA.  Only Sherman's Army 
> during his Georgia was the  only Union Army that ever was completely severed 
> fro the Union supply  system.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>  VR
> >>>>> Don Herko (US Army Loggie)
> >>>>>  
> >>>>> --- Tom Barrett <tbarrett21 at cox.net>  wrote:
> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> From a  military standpoint, I think he wanted to draw the AoP far 
> enough  so
> >>>>>> that they were separated from their supply and  support bases and 
> far enough
> >>>>>> that they would be  tired, scattered, and not able to concentrate
> >>>>>>  effectively.  Drawing them toward Harrisburg was a good plan, but  
> spreading
> >>>>>> them out would have been even better, so  the AoP Corps couldn't 
> quickly
> >>>>>> support one  another.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I think he  figured that his forces would be more rested and  better
> >>>>>> concentrated than the AoP, and that he'd  pick off and defeat the 
> Union units
> >>>>>> as they came  north.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> As it turned  out, Gettysburg wasn't far enough, and the AoP was  
> well
> >>>>>> organized, well supplied, and was able to  concentrate effectively.  
> For
> >>>>>> whatever  reason, Lee chose to attack anyway.
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>> TB
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>>  ________________________________
> >>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >>>>>>>> I tend to favor the notion  that Harrisburg was a decoy to draw 
> Union
> >>>>>> forces  out into the open. I absolutely believe that Lee would have  
> sent
> >>>>>> forces into the city, primarily to destroy  railroad  
> infrastructure, damage
> >>>>>>  manufacturing operations, capture supplies, and  generally create  
> further
> >>>>>> panic in the north, but holding the city  was  never an option. I 
> believe
> >>>>>> there was a  relatively small window of  opportunity for the ANV to  
> operate
> >>>>>> in  Pennsylvania.
> >>>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:13 PM, keith  mackenzie wrote:
> >>>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> >>>>>>>>> I've read a couple of  posts where the esteemed member insisted 
> that Lee
> >>>>>>  did not intend to hold Harrisburg if he did in fact assault and  
> take  it.
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if it was more than  one poster or only one several 
> times.
> >>>>>>>>>  My
> >>>>>>>>> question is, does anyone think he  would have attempted to hold 
> it? I
> >>>>>> don't think  anyone has put forward that POV, but I might have 
> missed  it.
> >>>>>>>>>  thanks
> >>>>>>>>>  K.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> >>>>>>  -to unsubscribe
> >>>>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >>>>>> -----
> >>>>>> No  virus found in this message.
> >>>>>> Checked by AVG -  www.avg.com
> >>>>>> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database:  2109/4768 - Release Date: 
> 01/26/12
> >>>>>>  
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com   -to unsubscribe
> >>>>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>  
> >>>>>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com   -to unsubscribe
> >>>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >>>> 
> >>>>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com   -to unsubscribe
> >>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >>  
> >> 
> >>  
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 64
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:31:45 -0600
> From: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: GDG- 166 unsnipped lines
> Message-ID: <20120128073153.1755A2AF at dm0202.mta.everyone.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> I want to remind everyone how important it is to snip the unmet 
> needed lines when he replied to a posting.  This posting had 166 
> lines.  It would only take a few of these to send out a digest.
> 
> Take Care
> 
> Dennis
> 
>   09:40 PM 1/27/2012, you wrote:
> >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >No, I was talking about the group.
> >Regards.
> >Jack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 65
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:34:13 -0600
> From: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: GDG- hook - service rivalry
> Message-ID: <20120128073421.1755A342 at dm0202.mta.everyone.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> 
> >For years I wondered why the Army hated the very
> 
> Hello,
> 
>       Let's not get into service rivalry here.
> 
> Take Care
> 
> Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 66
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:36:36 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: GDG- Supoplying the armies
> Message-ID: <3593f.602ce07e.3c557004 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Andy brought up the procedures of supplying the  armies.
> 
> At the risk of boring people with another DC story there is  something 
> mildly weird in Alexandria.  Along the Potomac is a small ridge  maybe 15-20 
> feet high.  I think it is millions of years old alluvial silt  deposits from 
> the Potomac flooding when the water level was higher.
> 
> On Wilkes St there is a tunnel through it where the other  streets go over 
> it.  Always wondered about it then I found out that before  the CW the 
> tracks of the O&A RR ran through the tunnel to docks on the  Potomac.  During the 
> war vessels would come up and offload directly into  the freight cars and 
> the stuff shipped directly out to the Union armies.   Then there were some 
> hospital cars that would be pushed through the tunnels,  placed onto barges 
> where steam tugs would move them up to places like Balt or  Philly.
> 
> How much H Haupt had to do with this I don't know.  They  would load 
> freight cars onto the barges- they would be loaded perpendicular to  the hull of 
> the barge. From there they would be sent to Fredericksburg or City  Point 
> where they would be put back on the tracks.
> 
> By @ 1863 the tracks of the B&O were extended across the  Potomac into 
> Alexandria and connected with the O&A.
> 
> Hope you find this story interesting.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 67
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:44:18 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- hook - service rivalry
> Message-ID: <74ED15B8-8CA8-43B1-B9ED-C9739E4F6602 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Oops. Sorry! (Even though 'rivalry' wrongly suggests competition between roughly equal entities)
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 28, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Dennis Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > 
> >> For years I wondered why the Army hated the very
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> >     Let's not get into service rivalry here.
> > 
> > Take Care
> > 
> > Dennis
> > 
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 68
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:46:24 -0500
> From: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Supoplying the armies
> Message-ID: <E7A63897-47C0-403A-B5E5-9D105D44C564 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Very interesting. Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 28, 2012, at 10:36 AM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Andy brought up the procedures of supplying the  armies.
> > 
> > At the risk of boring people with another DC story there is  something 
> > mildly weird in Alexandria.  Along the Potomac is a small ridge  maybe 15-20 
> > feet high.  I think it is millions of years old alluvial silt  deposits from 
> > the Potomac flooding when the water level was higher.
> > 
> > On Wilkes St there is a tunnel through it where the other  streets go over 
> > it.  Always wondered about it then I found out that before  the CW the 
> > tracks of the O&A RR ran through the tunnel to docks on the  Potomac.  During the 
> > war vessels would come up and offload directly into  the freight cars and 
> > the stuff shipped directly out to the Union armies.   Then there were some 
> > hospital cars that would be pushed through the tunnels,  placed onto barges 
> > where steam tugs would move them up to places like Balt or  Philly.
> > 
> > How much H Haupt had to do with this I don't know.  They  would load 
> > freight cars onto the barges- they would be loaded perpendicular to  the hull of 
> > the barge. From there they would be sent to Fredericksburg or City  Point 
> > where they would be put back on the tracks.
> > 
> > By @ 1863 the tracks of the B&O were extended across the  Potomac into 
> > Alexandria and connected with the O&A.
> > 
> > Hope you find this story interesting.
> > 
> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 69
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:03:50 -0500
> From: John Grim <jgrim1941 at gmail.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Subject: Re: GDG- Supoplying the armies
> Message-ID:
>     <CAHUpNb2QNw-bRf6Aoq=Y9uLGZEZdyptqs8zEiS+X6C6aJNxMVA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Peter
> 
> When I first moved to Alexandria around 1976 I lived on Wilkes anduse to
> walk thru that tunnel almost every day when going to work at Chadwick's on
> the waterfront.  My understanding is that they used smaller engines to go
> from the wharves thru the tunnel.  They probably connected to the other
> railroads near where the Masonic Temple is.   When I owned a house on
> Walnut St (west end) it was very near the area where many railroad workers
> lived that loaded and unloaded goods from western virginia and there were
> still two families on Walnut that were engineers on the 0range & Alexandria
> routes and whose fathers had also been engineers on those routes.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:46 AM, George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Very interesting. Thank you.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > George
> > 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> > On Jan 28, 2012, at 10:36 AM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > > Andy brought up the procedures of supplying the  armies.
> > >
> > > At the risk of boring people with another DC story there is  something
> > > mildly weird in Alexandria.  Along the Potomac is a small ridge  maybe
> > 15-20
> > > feet high.  I think it is millions of years old alluvial silt  deposits
> > from
> > > the Potomac flooding when the water level was higher.
> > >
> > > On Wilkes St there is a tunnel through it where the other  streets go
> > over
> > > it.  Always wondered about it then I found out that before  the CW the
> > > tracks of the O&A RR ran through the tunnel to docks on the  Potomac.
> >  During the
> > > war vessels would come up and offload directly into  the freight cars and
> > > the stuff shipped directly out to the Union armies.   Then there were
> > some
> > > hospital cars that would be pushed through the tunnels,  placed onto
> > barges
> > > where steam tugs would move them up to places like Balt or  Philly.
> > >
> > > How much H Haupt had to do with this I don't know.  They  would load
> > > freight cars onto the barges- they would be loaded perpendicular to  the
> > hull of
> > > the barge. From there they would be sent to Fredericksburg or City  Point
> > > where they would be put back on the tracks.
> > >
> > > By @ 1863 the tracks of the B&O were extended across the  Potomac into
> > > Alexandria and connected with the O&A.
> > >
> > > Hope you find this story interesting.
> > >
> > > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
> > http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> > unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 70
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:16:37 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Supoplying the armies
> Message-ID: <36b38.2900d31b.3c557965 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> THNX George-
> 
> I see you don't despair of Jack and still have  hope.
> 
> You hope to remember that in Jack's world the rivers run  backwards?
> 
> ;-{)   !!!
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/28/2012 10:46:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Very interesting. Thank  you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 28, 2012, at 10:36 AM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Andy brought up  the procedures of supplying the  armies.
> > 
> > At the risk of  boring people with another DC story there is  something 
> > mildly  weird in Alexandria.  Along the Potomac is a small ridge  maybe  
> 15-20 
> > feet high.  I think it is millions of years old alluvial  silt  deposits 
> from 
> > the Potomac flooding when the water level  was higher.
> > 
> > On Wilkes St there is a tunnel through it where  the other  streets go 
> over 
> > it.  Always wondered about it  then I found out that before  the CW the 
> > tracks of the O&A  RR ran through the tunnel to docks on the  Potomac.  
> During the  
> > war vessels would come up and offload directly into  the freight  cars 
> and 
> > the stuff shipped directly out to the Union  armies.   Then there were 
> some 
> > hospital cars that would be  pushed through the tunnels,  placed onto 
> barges 
> > where steam tugs  would move them up to places like Balt or  Philly.
> > 
> > How  much H Haupt had to do with this I don't know.  They  would load  
> > freight cars onto the barges- they would be loaded perpendicular  to  the 
> hull of 
> > the barge. From there they would be sent to  Fredericksburg or City  
> Point 
> > where they would be put back on  the tracks.
> > 
> > By @ 1863 the tracks of the B&O were extended  across the  Potomac into 
> > Alexandria and connected with the  O&A.
> > 
> > Hope you find this story interesting.
>> > A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> > Peter
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  -to unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 71
> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:19:11 -0500 (EST)
> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
> Subject: Re: GDG- Supoplying the armies
> Message-ID: <36c54.147c34fc.3c5579ff at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> Yes John-
> 
> I have submitted a CW map of DC and the forts to the  gdg.  If you see 
> where the traacks run they O&A tracks ran in almost a  straight line down Wilkes 
> St.
> 
> I wondered how they got the locos through the tunnel.  It  does seem awful 
> low.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/28/2012 11:04:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter
> 
> When I first moved to Alexandria  around 1976 I lived on Wilkes anduse to
> walk thru that tunnel almost every  day when going to work at Chadwick's on
> the waterfront.  My  understanding is that they used smaller engines to go
> from the wharves thru  the tunnel.  They probably connected to the other
> railroads near where  the Masonic Temple is.   When I owned a house on
> Walnut St (west  end) it was very near the area where many railroad workers
> lived that  loaded and unloaded goods from western virginia and there were
> still two  families on Walnut that were engineers on the 0range &  
> Alexandria
> routes and whose fathers had also been engineers on those  routes.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:46 AM, George Connell  
> <georgeconnell at mac.com>wrote:
> 
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > Very interesting. Thank you.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> > George
> > 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> >
> > On Jan 28, 2012, at 10:36 AM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> >
> > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > > Andy  brought up the procedures of supplying the  armies.
> > >
> >  > At the risk of boring people with another DC story there is   something
> > > mildly weird in Alexandria.  Along the Potomac is  a small ridge  maybe
> > 15-20
> > > feet high.  I think  it is millions of years old alluvial silt  deposits
> > from
> >  > the Potomac flooding when the water level was higher.
> >  >
> > > On Wilkes St there is a tunnel through it where the  other  streets go
> > over
> > > it.  Always wondered  about it then I found out that before  the CW the
> > > tracks of  the O&A RR ran through the tunnel to docks on the   Potomac.
> >  During the
> > > war vessels would come up and  offload directly into  the freight cars 
> and
> > > the stuff  shipped directly out to the Union armies.   Then there were
> >  some
> > > hospital cars that would be pushed through the  tunnels,  placed onto
> > barges
> > > where steam tugs would  move them up to places like Balt or  Philly.
> > >
> > >  How much H Haupt had to do with this I don't know.  They  would  load
> > > freight cars onto the barges- they would be loaded  perpendicular to  
> the
> > hull of
> > > the barge. From there  they would be sent to Fredericksburg or City  
> Point
> > > where  they would be put back on the tracks.
> > >
> > > By @ 1863 the  tracks of the B&O were extended across the  Potomac into
> > >  Alexandria and connected with the O&A.
> > >
> > > Hope you  find this story interesting.
> > >
> > > A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> > > Peter
> > > ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives
> >
> >
> > ----------------
>http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
> >  unsubscribe
> > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> >
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
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> http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> 
> End of Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 28
> ******************************************
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