GDG- Fw: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 25

George F ggatsby79 at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 25 18:53:28 CST 2012


Dear GDG,
 
I had the good fortune to host a writer, a photographer and a local historical preservationist on a tour of our small part of the Falling Waters (Md) (July 14, 1863) battlefield including the exterior of the Daniel Donnelly house, site of barn, locations of the lunettes and the point of attack by the Michigan Wolverine cavalry.  I will keep you updated as to where the content will ultimately reside.
 
Though it is only January, I am already looking forward to the June GDG Annual Muster.  It was difficult missing the unofficial Winter Stomp last December but unavoidable.
 
Cheers,
George F. Franks, III
Daniel Donnelly House (1820)
Williamsport, Md.

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Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 25

Send Gettysburg mailing list submissions to gettysburg at arthes.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to gettysburg-request at arthes.com You can reach the person managing the list at gettysburg-owner at arthes.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Gettysburg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence) 2. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence) 3. Re: Wasn't Sickles Right? (CWMHTours at aol.com) 4. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 5. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills) 6. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com) 7. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk) 8. Re: Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills) 9. Re: Wasn't Sickles Right? (cameron2 at optimum.net) 10. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com) 11. Re: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
 (idunc at q.com) 12. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (cameron2 at optimum.net) 13. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Jack Lawrence) 14. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 15. Re: ISusquehanna River (Dave Gillespie) 16. Re: Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel) 17. Re: Inevitable defeat (George Connell) 18. Re: Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda. (CWMHTours at aol.com) 19. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom) 20. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 21. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com) 22. Re: Dave- a Second Response (John Lawrence) 23. Re: Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence) 24. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence) 25. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 26. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com) 27. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 28. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom) 29. Re: My Tummy! (CWMHTours at aol.com) 30. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 31. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills) 32. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides
 (Andy Mills) 33. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 34. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net) 35. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom) 36. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 37. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom) 38. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net) 39. Re: Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel) 40. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 41. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk) 42. Re: Inevitable defeat (William Richardson) 43. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk) 44. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson) 45. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett) 46. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 47. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 48. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com) 49. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 50. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 51. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 52. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 53. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 54. Re: ISusquehanna River (Margaret D. Blough) 55.
 Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 56. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 57. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (George Connell) 58. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 59. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 60. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 61. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com) 62. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett) 63. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 64. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 65. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com) 66. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 67. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 68. Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars (Jack Lawrence) 69. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom) 70. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 71. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 72. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell) 73. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 74. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence) 75. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence) 76. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 77. Re: ISusquehanna River
 (CWMHTours at aol.com) 78. Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence) 79. Re: Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com) 80. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 81. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 82. Re: Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence) 83. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 84. Re: Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com) 85. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell) 86. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 87. Re: Susquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 88. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 89. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 90. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk) 91. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 92. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 93. Re: Susquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 94. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 95. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 96. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 97. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson) 98. Re: ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com) 99. Re:
 ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com) 100. Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 101. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence) 102. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk) 103. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk) 104. Re: Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence) 105. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence) 106. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson) 107. Re: ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence) 108. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 109. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com) 110. Invitation to connect on LinkedIn (Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn) 111. Re: Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills) 112. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (George Connell) 113. Re: ISusquehanna River (cameron2 at optimum.net) 114. Re: Raid vs Occupation (cameron2 at optimum.net) 115. Re: ISusquehanna River (Bob Coffman) 116. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder) 117. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder) 118. Heads-Up -
 Guide Exam (Dennis Lawrence) 119. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Dave Glorioso) 120. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills) 121. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com) 122. Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out against a large force (Andy Mills) 123. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell) 124. Re: Susquehanna River (Dennis Lawrence) 125. Re: Susquehanna River (Robert G Pielke) 126. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell) 127. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence) 128. Re: Susquehanna River (John Lawrence) 129. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk) 130. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:01:17 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <2AFD112B7BC5423DB7DF803A94E291B0 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original As an
 addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided their forces prior to the battle. The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already trapped, so what the hey. The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the Cumberland that was never going to happen. Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in piecemeal. Regards, Jack The south approached the war itself with a certain sense of invetiability. I have no division. Let us cross across the river... Tell Hill he must come up. That man will fight us every day and every hour till the end of the war. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:19 AM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > It would appear, then, that Lee was quite willing to ignore the Napoleonic > maxims. At Chancellorsville, for example, he divided his army. Jackson's > flanking maneuver was
 not overwhelming force; it was successful surprise > that succeeded because Lee anticipated Hooker's reaction. Second Manassas > was a successful ambush of an army that didn't know where Longstreet was. > Pickett's Charge was hardly overwhelming force. > > In short, Lee made do with the human resources he had, which were never > overwhelming in numbers. He relied on speed and surprise, and on the > morale of his forces. He also relied on his knowledge of the AoP > commanders. A lot of psychology was involved, but rarely, if ever, > overwhelming force. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: CWMHTours > To: gettysburg > Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am > Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Tim. > > Sir, > > When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to > remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are: > > 1. Always strike with overwhelming force..... > > If you remember those
 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E. > Lee. > > He was a master of those. > > ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was briilliant. If you > were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless > you > are a dumb guy, which fortunately we are not. > > Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles > between them and Lee he did the right thing. > > The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as > possible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never > successfully > attack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to > bring overwhelming force on the AoP. > > If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you > attack with overwhelming force. > > It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light. > > Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but > I like how it sounds. > > A Loyal
 Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:06:23 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <737D4FCD904B49CE943EF2C84BAE5E48 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Since we are using historical metaphors for Lee, here is one for the ages. The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him. For he had lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his particular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to make recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other hand, as from a fountain
 continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp was quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in courage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining new force and resolution to go on with the war. -Plutarch Which pretty much describes every one of lee's "victories"? Lee would probaly better be forgotten than have his name epitomized as king Pyrrhus-asin Pyyrhic victory. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:07 AM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Tim. > > Sir, > > When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to > remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are: > > 1. Always strike with overwhelming force..... > > If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E. > Lee. > > He was a master of those. > > ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was
 briilliant. If you > were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless > you > are a dumb guy, which fortunately we are not. > > Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles > between them and Lee he did the right thing. > > The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as > possible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never > successfully > attack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to > bring overwhelming force on the AoP. > > If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you > attack with overwhelming force. > > It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light. > > Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but > I like how it sounds. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > > In a message dated 1/23/2012 11:36:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > joadx1 at netscape.net writes: > > > > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:06:43 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right? Message-ID: <1626b.7d8ea01b.3c504d33 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Apparently, as I recall from Coddington, Meade was surprised by his forward movement. Meade naturally gave consent to posting his troops according to beneficial terrain. But Meade did not give consent to moving the whole III Cps a whole mile in front of the lines of the rest of the AoP. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 11:13:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV flanking attack?
 Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of the actions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was intending to move a large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the case later in the day), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to debate (that he didn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's brigade), but I think the final conclusion of his (not the move), that a large force of the enemy was moving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is a valid conclusion. What I would like to know though: after "discovering" this flank movement, did he inform headquarters about this? Was Meade then made aware of a sizable force moving to his south? Thanks, ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:14:44
 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <167cb.3aaf975a.3c504f14 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the river. Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state capital and RR center. Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it to cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on the east and this would have enabled the
 Confederates to attack the city from both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the ANV generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save it. The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but bridges were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another until Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt later but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered bridge believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the flames that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. Regards, Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: "GDG" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> And in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big granite
 blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over without a whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: CWMHTours at aol.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Dave, Respectfully Sir, I think we disagree, sir. Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, Gtysbg, & Monocacy. I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a balanced combination. By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. The Hammer was Jackson. The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. Also, just curious, I don't
 recall reference to Lee being concerned about destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over without a whole lot of valuable time and trouble? Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. Everything else was a subset. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:18:50 +0000 From:
 Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E0CC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter: When I have some time finalized, I will let you know to see if you are free. As I said earlier, I don't have anything planned at the moment, but wanted to put this on the list of places to visit this summer, should I find myself having a free weekend. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Andy- I don't come into the GDG to solicit business as a tourguide. It is probably inappropriate. But since you asked I sent an email out of the room but I didn't get your address right and I got a bounce back. I am a Civil War battlefield tour
 guide. I am kind of like a prostitute. I'll go anywhere anytime. Been taking bus tours to the battlefields for 20 years. I've been prowling the battlefields around DC for 30+ years. Fredericksburg- I'd like to go wander around the Slaughter Pen some more. The northern stonewall is over-rated. The southern end of the battlefield is far more interesting. There is a really really great restaurant on the river- very romantic. Kind of a fancy place now but it it used to be a cheap sports brass and fern bar. Now called Tru Love's. It has a webvsite. The manager James might throw us a free round. Just so you know, I love being on a battlefield. I go by myself all the time. I'll go anywhere. If you want a tour guide I will work for chili and beer. Anywhere you want to go. You should go on the Booth Escape Route tour with me. Way cool. Any time anyone from GDG wants to go out and poke around a battlefield I'll do it for chili and beer. That goes for everyone.
 We'll take John Grim. He's fun. Save your money. Let's get John and have some fun. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area
 could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). Thanks, ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:38:42 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <177bd.5a3004e.3c5054b2 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hey Andy- THNX- You can easily spend years prowling around battlefields in this area. There is also something new to go
 try to find. There is never enough time for any one place which is fortunate in one way. But the other side of the coin is that it gets dark and the park police come and chase you off the battlefield.. Fredericksburg has some wonderful restaurants. I wish I could have lived down there also but...... Tru Love's is right on the river across from the island north oif the bridge and S of the northern landing poiunt. Has huge picture windows to watch the Rappahannock current flow by. Way cool. Fireplace too. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter: When I have some time finalized, I will let you know to see if you are free. As I said earlier, I don't have anything planned at the moment, but wanted to put this on the list of places to visit this summer, should I find myself having a free weekend. Thanks, -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Andy- I don't come into the GDG to solicit business as a tourguide. It is probably inappropriate. But since you asked I sent an email out of the room but I didn't get your address right and I got a bounce back. I am a Civil War battlefield tour guide. I am kind of like a prostitute. I'll go anywhere anytime. Been taking bus tours to the battlefields for 20 years. I've been prowling the battlefields around DC for 30+ years. Fredericksburg- I'd like to go wander around the Slaughter Pen some more. The northern stonewall is over-rated. The southern end of the battlefield is far more interesting. There is a really really great restaurant on the river- very romantic. Kind of a fancy place now but it it used to be a
 cheap sports brass and fern bar. Now called Tru Love's. It has a webvsite. The manager James might throw us a free round. Just so you know, I love being on a battlefield. I go by myself all the time. I'll go anywhere. If you want a tour guide I will work for chili and beer. Anywhere you want to go. You should go on the Booth Escape Route tour with me. Way cool. Any time anyone from GDG wants to go out and poke around a battlefield I'll do it for chili and beer. That goes for everyone. We'll take John Grim. He's fun. Save your money. Let's get John and have some fun. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in short supply
 due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). Thanks, ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:42:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1327430542.46001.YahooMailNeo at web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ >From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >To: gettysburg at arthes.com >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >The
 river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very >wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. > >A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river.? >Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >capital and RR center. > >Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. > >A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter? > > >In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: > >Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the >east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from >both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving
 it and? tried to save it. >The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames >that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. > > >Regards, > > >Margaret > >----- Original? Message ----- >From: "Tom" >To: "GDG"? >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>> And >in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >without a >whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<<
 It was destroyed, by fire >(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >Regards, Tom B.? > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >Dave, > >Respectfully Sir, > >I think we disagree,? sir. > >Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >Gtysbg, >& Monocacy. > >I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >balanced? combination. > >By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. > >The Hammer was Jackson. > >The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. > >Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
 >destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >without a >whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? > >Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. > >The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >Everything else was a subset. > >A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter? > > > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >? -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >? -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
 -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:48:36 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E119 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jeff: Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City Island across from the city? Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ >From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >To:
 gettysburg at arthes.com >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but >very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. > >A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river. >Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >capital and RR center. > >Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. > >A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter > > >In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: > >Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the >east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the
 city from >both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames >that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. > > >Regards, > > >Margaret > >----- Original? Message ----- >From: "Tom" >To: "GDG"? >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>> And >in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made
 of big >granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >without a >whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >Regards, Tom B.? > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >Dave, > >Respectfully Sir, > >I think we disagree,? sir. > >Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >Gtysbg, >& Monocacy. > >I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >balanced? combination. > >By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. > >The Hammer was Jackson. > >The Anvil was the
 wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. > >Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >without a >whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? > >Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. > >The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >Everything else was a subset. > >A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter? > > > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >? -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >? -to unsubscribe
 >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:59:51 +0000 (GMT) From: cameron2 at optimum.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii << In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV flanking attack? Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of the actions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was intending to move a large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the case later in the day), but the manner in which he
 went about it is subject to debate (that he didn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's brigade), but I think the final conclusion of his (not the move), that a large force of the enemy was moving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is a valid conclusion. >> Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at all sure this did equate to discovering any particular intent to move a large force around his flank. Now, that of course is what ended up happening, but at the time of the Pitzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was an extension of the Confederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and not necessarily a wider flanking movement. There's also the matter of how, had Sickles taken up his assigned sector, instead of moving forward, the intended Confederate flanking movement wouldn't have ended up off his flank at all. Jim Cameron ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:00:59 -0500
 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <186a3.30368703.3c5059eb at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This may rile some feathers and make a kerfluffle but I have had a couple dozen LBG on my tourbuses at GTYSBG and have never really been very impressed by them. Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie. But I sit there and look out the window and want to go Hey! Point that out! What about that? Point this out. I had a LBG once who only wanted to talk about about Daniel Sickles shooting Philip Barton Key on Lafayette Square 75 mi away in DC. Meanwhile the bus is rolling past Oak Ridge and the Peach Orchid and the guy was talking about P.B. Key. As a matter of protocol and courtesy you don't contradict another guide on a tour but I had to repeatedly keep telling him discreetly to stay on topic. Did no good tho. Didn't stop talking
 about it til the tour was over. The tour co provided the tip for the guy but I didn't want to give it to him. I love the story.... I tell it a lot as a ghost story on Lafayette Square. One of my favorite stories. But when LRT is rolling by outside the bus window you should talk about that, not Sickles and Key. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:36:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the day after the battle. The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a partnership of sorts ever since. Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, officially sanctioned, to run free across the property. The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally good. They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg. In a perfect world, every
 battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired infantry officer with a degree in history. But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the minituae of the field. Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy. Regards, Jack 9 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. > > At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment > other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends > which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get > to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. > > Is there anything like the
 Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one > could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know > of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area > in which one could hire a guide? > > It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in > Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show > you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on > the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time > of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I > hope this makes sense). > > Thanks, > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
 Archives ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:34 -0500 (EST) From: idunc at q.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24 Message-ID: <1202429509.2256702.1327431874089.JavaMail.root at md02.quartz.synacor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 <> Frigg'in brilliant!! Ian Duncanson ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:06:55 +0000 (GMT) From: cameron2 at optimum.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii << The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about fifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years ago.
 >> As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed. Jim Cameron ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:24:37 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <96922F6FE46A4E07965699417FDC368A at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January
 24, 2012 1:06 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > << The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not > unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, > IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was > O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and began giving tours > when he was about fifteen. The current guide service was started a little > more than five years ago. >> > > As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a > guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does > have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed. > > Jim Cameron > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:28:39
 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <19a11.4b5259d5.3c506067 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of the Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low water on the R at Wrightsville. I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant number of infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as well wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river but not infantry. In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers putting log
 rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing stories. The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. The Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in Manhatten I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). The overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to water level with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and costs me sleep at night worrying about it. Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am sticking to it. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern
 Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jeff: Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City Island across from the city? Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river flowed free. Namaste Jeff Burk >________________________________ >From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >To: gettysburg at arthes.com >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. > >A smart and careful commander would
 not want to put more than an >expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the river. >Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >capital and RR center. > >Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. > >A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter > > >In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it to >cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on the >east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city from >both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the ANV >generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save it. >The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but bridges >were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
 another until >Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt later >but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily >obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered bridge >believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the flames >that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. > > >Regards, > > >Margaret > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tom" >To: "GDG" >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> And >in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >without a >whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >(not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >Regards, Tom B. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: CWMHTours at aol.com >Sent: Monday,
 January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >To: gettysburg at arthes.com >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Dave, > >Respectfully Sir, > >I think we disagree, sir. > >Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as >Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, >Gtysbg, >& Monocacy. > >I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >balanced combination. > >By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. > >The Hammer was Jackson. > >The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. > >Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned about >destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the
 darn thing over >without a >whole lot of valuable time and trouble? > >Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces >up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. > >The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >Everything else was a subset. > >A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter > > > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m > -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m > -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:32:13 -0500 From: Dave Gillespie To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It is a fascinating river. Thanks, Dave Gillespie Parsippany, NJ On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. > > The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water ?source of the > Ches Bay. ?Goes
 all the way up into southern NY ?state. > > Extremely wide. ?Just north of the state border with MD ?there is a huge > dam, the Conowingo. ?some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile ?Island. > > Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are ?apparent in low > water on the R at Wrightsville. > > I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any ?significant number of > infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG ?campaign. ?You might as well > wave goodbye as ?they marched off to ?Johnson's Island. > > If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of ?the river but > not infantry. > > In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of ?loggers putting > log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. ?Pretty ?amazing stories. > > The Susq ?R is an earthquake fault. ?Interesting on ?the East Coast. ?The > Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly ?enough. ?If I lived in Manhatten I > wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that.
 ?And certainly in a high rise. > > If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C ?Bay is a > crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. > > The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix ?here!). ?The > overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I ?need my > crabs!). ?And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up ?to water level > with silt. ?The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares ?experts, and > costs me sleep at night worrying about it. > > Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty ?scary. > > That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and ?I am > sticking to it. > > > A ?Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > amills at jplcreative.com writes: > > Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes: > Jeff: > > Out of curiosity: ?is the dam in ?which you refer, the one just below City > Island across from the city?
 > > Thanks, > > -----Original Message----- > From: ?gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf ?Of Jeff Burk > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM > To: GDG > Subject: ?Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Your ?point about the river being shallow is true today. ?However that is > because the river has been dammed upstream. ?during the ?war the ?river > flowed free. > > > Namaste > > Jeff ?Burk > > >>________________________________ >>From: ?"CWMHTours at aol.com" >>To: ?gettysburg at arthes.com >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 ?PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG ?Member Contributes: >>The river at that point is frequently shallow in ?summer ?droughts but >>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very ?rocky. >> >>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more ?than ?an >>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on ?the east side of > the ?river.
 >>Harrisburg was no significant ?military goal other than being a ?state >>capital and RR ?center. >> >>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the ?river ?there. >> >>A ?Loyal Neo-Anti ?Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >>In a message dated 1/24/2012 ?2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>mdblough1 at comcast.net ?writes: >> >>Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes: >>Tom-The ?militia destroyed it in order to keep the ?Confederates using it > to >>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. ?Harrisburg ?is on > the >>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to ? attack the city > from >>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the ?bridge's ?destruction, the > ANV >>generals on the scene saw the ?advantages to saving it and ?tried to save > it. >>The Susquehanna is ?not one of the wildest rivers in the ?world but > bridges >>were ?needed to cross it and with that bridge out there ?wasn't another > until >>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy
 sections so it could ?be ?rebuilt > later >>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of ?precision ?wasn't easily >>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville ?bridge was a wood & ?stone covered > bridge >>believed to be the ?longest such bridge in the world at ?the time and the > flames >>that ?destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite ?supports. >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Margaret >> >>----- Original ?Message ----- >>From: "Tom" ? >>To: "GDG" ? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 ?PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed ?GDG Member ?Contributes: >>>>> And >>in fact, if you ?think about it, the damn ?thing IS still made of big >>granite ?blocks. Now just how are you going to ?knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of valuable time and ?trouble? ?<<< It was destroyed, by fire >>(not the granite supports ? of course), by Union militia. >>Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: CWMHTours at aol.com
 >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 ?9:28 PM >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>Subject: Re: GDG- ?Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member ?Contributes: >>Dave, >> >>Respectfully Sir, >> >>I think we ?disagree, ?sir. >> >>Where is it written that Lee disagreed ?with Jackson about ?destroying >>infrastructure in the North? I ?think Lee was just about as ?aggressive as >>Jackson was in ?bringing the war to your opponent. for ?example, Antietam, > >>Gtysbg, >>& Monocacy. >> >>I am not ?dispersing ?you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>balanced ?combination. >> >>By the time of 2nd Man Lee ?could see the Hammer and the ?Anvil. >> >>The Hammer was ?Jackson. >> >>The Anvil was the wonderful ?James Peter ?Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >> >>Also, just curious, I ?don't ?recall reference to Lee being concerned > about >>destroying ?the RR bridge ?over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. > And >>in fact, if you think ?about it, the damn thing IS
 still made of ?big >>granite blocks. Now just how ?are you going to knock the darn ?thing over >>without a >>whole lot of ?valuable time and ?trouble? >> >>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. ?Raids. ?Move overwhelming forces >>up north and attack piecemeal in ? overwhelming force. >> >>The purpose of going north for Lee was ?to ?de-stabilizing the North. >>Everything else was a subset. >> >>A Loyal ?Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co > m >> ? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ ?for ?Archives >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co > m >> ? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ ?for ? Archives >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co > m ?-to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for ?Archives >>
 >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > ?-to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for ?Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > ?-to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for ?Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:36:05 -0800 From: Matt Diestel To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes: > > As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided > their forces prior to the battle. > The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already > trapped, so what the hey.
 > The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the > Cumberland that was never going to happen. > Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in > piecemeal. > > Regards, > > Jack > > As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not > to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time. > Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the > best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions > requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the > same time. With regards, Chet ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:39:37 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <5406AD3E-2A0E-45CD-B3B6-F4C87FD87C49 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders required
 him to cover Baltimore as well. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes: >> > > >> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided >> their forces prior to the battle. >> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already >> trapped, so what the hey. >> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the >> Cumberland that was never going to happen. >> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in >> piecemeal. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not >> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time. >> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the >> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary
 missions >> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the >> same time. > > With regards, > Chet > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:07 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda. Message-ID: <374.3c0e8260.3c506317 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I am 100% convinced that if Sickles had taken the axis II Cps - LRT that there would have been no crisis on Day 2. His III C. 2 divs should have been more than sufficient to handle any attack by the Hood or McLaws. Meade was given a free hand by Lincoln. Remove any officers he wanted, promote any officers he wanted, (Hey! No one's addressing my ?s about Merritt, Farnsworth & Custer. THNX guys.) If I wuz
 Meade after the 2nd Day I wudda stood one-legged Sickles against a tree, pulled out my .44 Colt and shot him in the head. Just my opinion and I get feedback from people that I am too easy and compassionate in my views. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:01:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cameron2 at optimum.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: << In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV flanking attack? Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of the actions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was intending to move a large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the case later in the day), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to debate (that he didn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's brigade), but I think the final conclusion of his (not the move), that a large force of the enemy was moving south to flank his
 line / ergo: the AOP is a valid conclusion. >> Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at all sure this did equate to discovering any particular intent to move a large force around his flank. Now, that of course is what ended up happening, but at the time of the Pitzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was an extension of the Confederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and not necessarily a wider flanking movement. There's also the matter of how, had Sickles taken up his assigned sector, instead of moving forward, the intended Confederate flanking movement wouldn't have ended up off his flank at all. Jim Cameron ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:33 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID:
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Can try this site - ALBG Site. http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs.html Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Glorioso Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:35 AM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Any syllabi from those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that can be purchased or shared? Dave Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the day after the battle. > The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a partnership of sorts ever since. > Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, officially sanctioned, to run free across the property. > > The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally good. > They do have
 these NPS tours at Gettysburg. > > In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired infantry officer with a degree in history. > > But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the minituae of the field. > > Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy. > > Regards, > > Jack > > > > > > 9 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM > Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. >> >> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like
 to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. >> >> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? >> >> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). >> >> Thanks, >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:45:52 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <7ff.596acb79.3c50646f at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Don't hook me! Please! Don't hook me! ;-{) !!!!! A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:19:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lawrence at rwlcpa.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Anytime a member finds themselves commenting "don't hook me" its best to stop right there and not send the post. -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:52 AM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Tom B.- My Friend- If you are worried about getting slammed by other members in the GDG please feel free to sign MY name at the bottom of your posts. I can take the pain. See if Al responds. I am starting to get used to it. like a duck in the rain. What is frequently lost in discussion of Lee, Longstreet and Jackson is/are the two Napoleonic Maxims of War. Which are: 1:. Always attack with overwhelming force [A modern example being Donald Rumsflod "You go to war with what you got"{DON'T HOOK ME THIS ! GERMAINE!!!!!]} ( Did I spell germaine right?) 2. Always keep your opponent off bakance. Lee was a master of these 2 emxample beimg iftims. Our esteemned Noble God Shelby Foote labeled as geniuses both Lincoln and Forrest but you have to admit that Lee,
 Jackson and Longstreet belong in the ampheuon (Spell?)of heroes. NOT AS A MODERN POLITICAL COMMENT! DON'T HOOK ME!!!!!! It is effficient as a military commander to attack with "overwhelming force" for example being that sometimes if you bring a LOT of your dudes the other guy runs away, ie. the first Gulf War. (Also, as a bachelor,} the first datecan get scared and his dudes orun away. [As a bachelor on a first date when attacking with overwhelming force does't work very well. I don't know why RE: Viet Nam. {DON'T HOOK ME!!!!! THIS is GERMAINE! } in the example [Military-not political- don't HOOK me!] In the peak of the quantitiy of troops.the maxim of overwhelming force did not work in that the US got as high as 550,000 troops) (Correct me if that figger is wrong.) The maxim fails us..... but we have few other examples A modern example is the Humvees in Iraq [DON'T HOOK ME!!!!! DO YOU SEE ALL THE EXCLAMATION MARKS? THAT MEANS DOIN'T HOOK ME- NOR
 YOU'L;L NEVER GET A BOWL OF CHILI IN IN DC IF YOU That military idiot said go to war with what you got qand we got Afghanisant and Iraq, We should mot have gone in there until we were prepared. The analogy being Pap Thomas at Nashville. he didn'tattack until all his logistics was readv A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/23/2012 11:12:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bunco973 at optonline.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Disclaimer : I respect Lee, and a big fan of Longstreet - but - I honestly feel Lee's finest hours was the Jackson episodes, thus deferring to most of Dave's post. IMHO - Lee was an accomplished strategist - Jackson was the tactician, deferring to your post of the Lee-Jackson combo. Sometimes I wonder (at the risk of getting slammed in this group), whether Lee headed North, besides the tried and true reasons, to stave off the chance of losing some of his command to the West (Vicksburg especially). Commanders
 don't like to lose troops to another command, maybe an ego thing ;-D. Not saying Lee's best interests for the Confederacy were not in his heart, but the acceleration of his movements after meeting with Davis was (to me) a bit suspect. If my musings are wrong, so be it, as I'm sure this esteemed group will put me in the right direction - just a thought, though! (Have to go back to lurker mode - starting to put my fat in the fire !!) Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> And in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over without a whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: CWMHTours at aol.com Sent:
 Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Dave, Respectfully Sir, I think we disagree, sir. Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, Gtysbg, & Monocacy. I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a balanced combination. By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. The Hammer was Jackson. The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned about destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over without a
 whole lot of valuable time and trouble? Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. Everything else was a subset. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 21
 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:50:39 -0500 (EST) From: AWard61890 at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <15921.3869595a.3c50658f at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut there the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The perspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance. BOTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if
 you can give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, but you are not "interviewed" by guides. Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets a quality tour. Peter previously stated that: Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie. The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid" Andy Ward ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:11:21 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Dave- a Second Response Message-ID: <845lsq5f5qplylil6swld7q2.1327374681880 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Unfortunately, this dream scenario ignores the fact that the war in the west was inexorably moving east. Numbers, assets and geography
 were going to play a heavy staccato on the south , is the confederate will slowly drained. Regards, Jacj CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >In more thought, at the risk of annoying everyone. > >By 2nd Man Lee had the perfect instrument of war. > >Just absolutely perfect. > >Longstreet, the master of solid assault and massive defense. > >Jackson, the master of fast Napoleonic warfare. > >Had that miraculous triumvirate survived Chancallorseville, it may not >have been the battle of Gettysburg or anything else that we would recognize in >battle to this day. > >Easily if Jackson had lived there just might never be any battle of >Gettysburg at all. It would still be a quiet little boring farm town like >Adamstown or Littlestown. > > Inconsequential. > >Jackson is the "X" factor of the war the East. Had he survived Chncvl >anything could have happened- including Northern defeat on the battlefield. > >A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter
 > > >In a message dated 1/23/2012 8:24:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >glory at zbzoom.net writes: > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Just finished "how the south could have won the civil war", by Bevin >Alexander-Armchair General 3-2012 > >It ends: >Saddled with leaders like Davis and Lee, who could not perceive reality, >the South's defeat was inevitable. > >The crux of the article is Jackson understood that the means of war now >favored the defense as witnessed during the 7 days battles when only 1 of >Lee's 5 frontal attacks succeeded. >Rifled muskets and canister would bleed out the southern army at this rate. >Instead, Jackson encouraged offensive movement leading to a defensive >stance on ground of his choice. >He also favored aggressive northern invasion with additional plans to >destroy factories, railroads and mines. >Both Davis and Lee rejected his strategy. Davis was in favor of a more >passive policy hoping the north would tire or
 Britain/France would intervene. >Lee favored frontal attacks. > >At second manassas, Jackson's proposals led to an opportunity to destroy >Pope's army. It may have worked if Lee would have attacked Popes left >earlier, failing to prevent retreat. >At Antietam, Jackson disagreed with Lee's goal of going to destroy the >bridge over the Susquehanna. >Instead he wanted to draw Mac to attack him north of Washington with added >goal of destroying factories etc >When battle took place at Antietam, Lee chose to fight despite little room >for maneuver. Jackson's ideals would have favored withdrawing to a more >favorable defensive position. >At Fredericksburg, Jackson proposed going south to North Anna River where >the cavalry would better be able to prevent the union army's retreat and >resupply. >At Chancellorsville, Lee put Jackson's strategy in place. An end around to >cut off Hookers retreat over the Rappahannock at US Ford was foiled by >Jackson's wound.
 >Lee invaded North again but continued his fixation on frontal attacks >during three costly days at Gettysburg. > >The above are interesting points although over simplified and without >primary sources. > >Thoughts? >Dave > > >Sent from my iPhone >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:50:52 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <8hsfemq5hbt2rq1exwxltcl5.1327431052241 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island? Regards, Jack Jeff Burk wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Your point
 about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. > > >?Namaste >? >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very >>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >> >>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river.? >>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >>capital and RR center. >> >>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. >> >>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter? >> >> >>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
 >>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >> >>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the >>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from >>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames >>that destroyed the wood, leaving only
 the granite? supports. >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Margaret >> >>----- Original? Message ----- >>From: "Tom" >>To: "GDG"? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>> And >>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >>Regards, Tom B.? >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>Dave, >> >>Respectfully Sir, >> >>I think we disagree,? sir. >> >>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was
 just about as? aggressive as >>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >>Gtysbg, >>& Monocacy. >> >>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>balanced? combination. >> >>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. >> >>The Hammer was Jackson. >> >>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >> >>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? >> >>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. >> >>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the
 North. >>Everything else was a subset. >> >>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter? >> >> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:58:34 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
 They still present the classes. You just can it get them from the HACC anymore. The course list us on their site. I'll look for the address. Regards, Jack Btw for clarification, I wasn't studying to be a battlefield guide. The HACC advertised them poorly in their mail outs and I signed up. Dave Glorioso wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Any syllabi from those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that can be purchased or shared? >Dave > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the day after the battle. >> The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a partnership of sorts ever since. >> Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, officially sanctioned, to run free across the property. >> >> The other parks do provide tours though,
 which can be spotty, but generally good. >> They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg. >> >> In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired infantry officer with a degree in history. >> >> But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the minituae of the field. >> >> Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" >> To: "GDG" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM >> Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. >>> >>> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having
 free weekends which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. >>> >>> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? >>> >>> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:01:33 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <133c.25722d32.3c50681d at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jack! No...no...no...! Sure, Lee wanted to spare VA. He wanted to spare VA, W VA, N.C., and the rest of the South. You appear to forget.... VA was the Battleline. The front. And it was getting chewed up and decimated by the armies sitting there. Like Verdun. [Don't hook me!] But, IMHO, you read Lee
 wrong if you forget the two Maxims of battle. By inserting the ANV into the north HE controlled the battle. HE had the iniative and could force the N. to react instead of waiting in VA for the AoP to take the iniative for the attack. There is a lot to be argued for retaining only the defensive. He could have sat S of the Rap R waiting for another UNION attack. But there were time constraints. He had to help wear out the will to fight on the north. If he sat S of the Rap R the N could only build up and reinforce their armies. He had to keep the N off balance and away from decimating the S farmland. He couldn't attack DC because it was a fortress. It had, until July 1964, an army of 30k in it. He could only go N of the Napoleonic capital and scare the dickens out of the North. Jack!.... No ..... No ....No! You are all wrong sir. But I love you, man..... ;-{) A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:50:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:10 AM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > As to why he moved north in the Pennsylvania Campaign, I don't think we'll ever know with 100% certainty. He wanted to spare Virginia. >Avoiding losing troops to the west may very well have been part of his >thinking. Didn't he tell Davis that, at least in so mnay words? >He himself said that he wanted to subsist his army in enemy territory, give >Virginia farmers an opportunity to bring in a good crop without armies in >the way, and disrupt the Federals' plans for their own defensive. This is correct. He wanted to spare Virginia. >Of these stated objectives, he did disrupt any plans Hooker may have had >for an offensive.... >He wanted to spare virginia. And why would the aoP go south when Lee came >north and bared whis throat to the AoP...He wanted to spare Virginia. >If he had
 the unstated objective of avoiding sending troops to the west, he >did that as well, He wanted to spare Virginia. >but I think we can postulate that if that was one of his objectives it was >because he felt that a victory in the north would siphon off troops from >Vicksburg. We'll never know about that part, but the nice thing about > >counterfactuals is that either way we argue, as long as we extrapolate >from known historical facts, we're all 100% correct. : ) This is the type of postulate we get down to when we just cannot come up with any military justification for the campaign. > I believe we can say with near certainty that Lee always planned to win > victories in battles, so whatever he hoped to accomplish in the > Pennsylvania campaign depended, at least in part, on defeating the > Federals. Or he just wanted to spare Virginia. Regards, Jack ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:10:01 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <18a9.f0b82c3.3c506a19 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" THNX Andy- You make good points. Can you imagine how I felt on that one bus tour when we were riding past Pickett's Charge and the LGBG was talking about Sickles shooting Key. I have a long list of real nightmares that occurred on tours and that one keeps floating near the top after 20 years. Not many people would appreciate it- even other tour guides. But you people should. The rule is you talk about what people see out the window. You tell them before they see it what they are gonna see, you tell them what they are seeing when they see it, and you tell what they saw after they saw it. A real simple rule. A Loyal Neo-Anti
 Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:51:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AWard61890 at aol.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut there the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The perspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance. BOTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you can give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, but you
 are not "interviewed" by guides. Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets a quality tour. Peter previously stated that: Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie. The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid" Andy Ward ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:12:24 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1a4e.11720df0.3c506aa8 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Yes- they are visible, you can see them from the 57mm's. A Loyal
 Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:56:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Aren't the piers still visible? Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: <128thpa at comcast.net> To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:25 AM Subject: GDG- Inevitable defeat > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > > > > > > There is a small but very interesting museum in Wrightsville that has > photos of the many bridges that cross the Susquehanna around there. IIRC, > the bridge that burnt down was not the first bridge in that spot. There is > a diorama of the burning of the bridge: > http://www.historicwrightsvillepa.org/historic_wrightsville_museum > > > > Paula > > < believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the > flames that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >> > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >
 -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:29:34 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info). We make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at
 least 1 of them includes a tour with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. & Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses every time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From:
 AWard61890 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut there the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The perspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance. BOTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you can give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over
 simplified, but you are not "interviewed" by guides. Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets a quality tour. Peter previously stated that: Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie. The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid" Andy Ward ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:32:46 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- My Tummy! Message-ID: <282e.132614db.3c506f6e at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi! I just mentioned it in passing. I have a big
 interest in geography and where every thing is. I am under the impression that in the deep cancerous silt behind the Conowingo that there is residual low level radiation contaminants from the 70s. Great! THNX alot! How am I going to be able to sleep tonite when I am now worrying about the Conowingo Dam again? I've already got stomach trouble and now you ask about the Conowingo! Dammit! Ouch! My tummy! A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:57:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island? Regards, Jack Jeff Burk wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river flowed free. > > > Namaste > >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
 >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but very >>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >> >>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the river. >>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>capital and RR center. >> >>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >> >>A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it to >>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on the >>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
 from >>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the ANV >>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save it. >>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but bridges >>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another until >>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt later >>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily >>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered bridge >>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the flames >>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Margaret >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Tom" >>To: "GDG" >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> And >>in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still
 made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>(not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>Dave, >> >>Respectfully Sir, >> >>I think we disagree, sir. >> >>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as >>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, >>Gtysbg, >>& Monocacy. >> >>I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>balanced combination. >> >>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >> >>The Hammer was
 Jackson. >> >>The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >> >>Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >> >>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >> >>The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>Everything else was a subset. >> >>A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysbur g_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.c om >> -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.c om -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:33:15 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <3559F594-D08F-4BC9-BDF7-1DA2C62548CA at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Peter, There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to
 capture Harrisburg. To do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he had before the AoP would have been close. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, > where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the > Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and > in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It > is a fascinating river. > > Thanks, > Dave Gillespie > Parsippany, NJ > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >> >> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of the >> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >> >> Extremely
 wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge >> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >> >> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >> water on the R at Wrightsville. >> >> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant number of >> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as well >> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >> >> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river but >> not infantry. >> >> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers putting >> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing stories. >> >> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. The >> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in Manhatten I >> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >> >> If you go online you
 can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >> >> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). The >> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to water level >> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and >> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >> >> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >> >> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> sticking to it. >> >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jeff: >> >> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City >> Island across from the city? >> >> Thanks, >> >> -----Original
 Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is >> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >> flowed free. >> >> >> Namaste >> >> Jeff Burk >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>> >>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of >> the river. >>>
 Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>> capital and RR center. >>> >>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it >> to >>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on >> the >>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >> from >>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the >> ANV >>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save >> it. >>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >> bridges >>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another >> until >>> Harrisburg. The hope was
 to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >> later >>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily >>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered >> bridge >>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the >> flames >>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Margaret >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom" >>> To: "GDG" >>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>> And >>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>> without a >>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>> Regards, Tom B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original
 Message----- >>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Dave, >>> >>> Respectfully Sir, >>> >>> I think we disagree, sir. >>> >>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as >>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, >> >>> Gtysbg, >>> & Monocacy. >>> >>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>> balanced combination. >>> >>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>> >>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>> >>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >>> >>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >> about >>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern
 of his. >> And >>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>> without a >>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>> >>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>> >>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>> Everything else was a subset. >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >> m >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >> m >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
 >> m -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:37:49 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID:
 <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E24B at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As an aside: if there are any battlefield guides on the list, I wanted to point out that some of the information on the site is old and outdated. For instance: http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/rates.html . This page has the prices incorrect, as they have gone up to ( http://www.nps.gov/gett/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm ) and I also noticed when talking about the tests ( http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs-writexam.html ), they had the next upcoming test as December 2010. Just in case anyone has the contacts to mention the site has outdated information. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: What amazes me is how the LBG's can
 either tone down the information to the visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info). We make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. & Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses every time - and many converts to our
 passion. As an aside of sorts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: AWard61890 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the
 cut there the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The perspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance. BOTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you can give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, but you are not "interviewed" by guides. Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets a quality tour. Peter previously stated that: Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie. The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid" Andy Ward
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:26 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E26D at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line. Please don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I was one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass it over. If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores, it becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space. Added to
 this, it would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day accordingly. I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people (I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots are filled on a certain day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two to help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away business. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family
 LBG tours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info). We make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. & Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses every time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the
 Gettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D Regards, Tom B. ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:47:53 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <32e3.72bf9a9d.3c5072f9 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sir, Respectfully, I think you misread both the 2 maxims of battle AND Lee at CHNCVL Overwhelming force- one way you apply that is to segment off a part of the enemy's forces ands then hit them with overwhe4lming force. Military officers from all over the world come here to research Jackson's Valley Campaign. Repeatedly, Jackson used surprise to keeps the Yanks off balance and nip off small segments like the MD brigade in Front Royal. He both kept them off balance and struck with overwhelming force, which is the cheapest way to
 win a battle. At Chncvl Lee followed BOTH rules after the Crackerbox conference. Yes, he divided his forces for Jackson's assault. BUT he nipped off a wing of the AoP - the XIth Cps. Hit them with the WHOLE II Cps. 25K men odd (Is that the reasonable figure?). He caught them by surprise-keeping them off balance. And when he attacked it was some 25k against, I think, less than 10k in the XI Cps. No... At Chncvl he was entirely following the 2 maxims of battle. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 12:21:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, joadx1 at netscape.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: It would appear, then, that Lee was quite willing to ignore the Napoleonic maxims. At Chancellorsville, for example, he divided his army. Jackson's flanking maneuver was not overwhelming force; it was successful surprise that succeeded because Lee anticipated Hooker's reaction. Second Manassas was a successful ambush of an army that didn't
 know where Longstreet was. Pickett's Charge was hardly overwhelming force. In short, Lee made do with the human resources he had, which were never overwhelming in numbers. He relied on speed and surprise, and on the morale of his forces. He also relied on his knowledge of the AoP commanders. A lot of psychology was involved, but rarely, if ever, overwhelming force. -----Original Message----- From: CWMHTours To: gettysburg Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Tim. Sir, When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are: 1. Always strike with overwhelming force..... If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E. Lee. He was a master of those. ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was briilliant. If you were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless you are a dumb
 guy, which fortunately we are not. Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles between them and Lee he did the right thing. The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as possible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never successfully attack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to bring overwhelming force on the AoP. If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you attack with overwhelming force. It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light. Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but I like how it sounds. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:48:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From:
 recker at earthlink.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <7758272.1327438134655.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 At Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written test and then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS, one from the guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a mentor who helps you through a few other requirements. This part of it is somewhat different than Gettysburg. The guide service is part of Western Maryland Interpretive Association, the park's non-profit. They have an arrangement with the NPS, though because Antietam is not a National Military park like Gettysburg, their arrangement is probably slightly different. There is no internship, but you must sign up to be a volunteer to become a guide. Stephen Recker -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Lawrence >Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM >To: GDG
 >Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If >they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns >before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg >consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be >interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like >your style. > ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:59:27 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I've usually been fortunate in that I get a return call within a day or so - and either I request a certain guide who I'm familiar with - or ask for one who's specialty is specific to a certain interest. But that's me. In regards to your post, I totally agree, but I'm not sure they have the resources for
 that - i.e. a specific scheduler type of person (I really don't know). Maybe Andy Ward could answer that one? Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Mills Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:42 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: One thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line. Please don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I was one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass it over. If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores, it becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space. Added to this, it would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day accordingly. I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people (I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots are filled on a certain
 day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two to help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away business. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info). We make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it -
 then again we usually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. & Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses every time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D Regards, Tom B. ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 36 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:01:20 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <3bd6.ab32c88.3c50761f at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" George.... I love you Man.... But I DO doubt it...... Think of the consequences for Lee. Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He takes that army on the wrong side of the river. Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. And, Sir, please tell me
 what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To me it makes no sense. So I do doubt it., A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he had before the AoP would have been close. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, > where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the > Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I
 grew up in Carlisle, PA) and > in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It > is a fascinating river. > > Thanks, > Dave Gillespie > Parsippany, NJ > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >> >> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of the >> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >> >> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge >> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >> >> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >> water on the R at Wrightsville. >> >> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant number of >> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as well >> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >> >> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east
 of the river but >> not infantry. >> >> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers putting >> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing stories. >> >> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. The >> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in Manhatten I >> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >> >> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >> >> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). The >> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to water level >> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and >> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >> >> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
 >> >> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> sticking to it. >> >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jeff: >> >> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City >> Island across from the city? >> >> Thanks, >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is >> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >> flowed free. >> >> >> Namaste >> >> Jeff Burk >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>> To:
 gettysburg at arthes.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>> >>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of >> the river. >>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>> capital and RR center. >>> >>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it >> to >>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on >> the
 >>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >> from >>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the >> ANV >>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save >> it. >>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >> bridges >>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another >> until >>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >> later >>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily >>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered >> bridge >>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the >> flames >>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Margaret >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom" >>> To: "GDG" >>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>> Subject:
 Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>> And >>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>> without a >>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>> Regards, Tom B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Dave, >>> >>> Respectfully Sir, >>> >>> I think we disagree, sir. >>> >>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as >>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam, >> >>> Gtysbg, >>> & Monocacy. >>> >>>
 I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>> balanced combination. >>> >>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>> >>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>> >>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >>> >>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >> about >>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. >> And >>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over >>> without a >>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>> >>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>> >>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>> Everything else was a subset. >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >> m >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >> m >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >> m -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 37 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:09:22 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual Gettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and folks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And will be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human database (Antietam LBG). Regards, Tom B. (red in the face)
 -----Original Message----- From: recker at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:48 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: At Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written test and then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS, one from the guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a mentor who helps you through a few other requirements. This part of it is somewhat different than Gettysburg. The guide service is part of Western Maryland Interpretive Association, the park's non-profit. They have an arrangement with the NPS, though because Antietam is not a National Military park like Gettysburg, their arrangement is probably slightly different. There is no internship, but you must sign up to be a volunteer to become a guide. Stephen Recker -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Lawrence >Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM >To: GDG >Subject: Re: GDG-
 Battlefield Tour Guides > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If >they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns >before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg >consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be >interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like >your style. > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 38 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:13:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: recker at earthlink.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <18821141.1327439617943.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Tom, No worries. Thanks for the kind words, and the plug! Glad to hear
 it is of use. Ah yes, the human database. Love it! Stephen Recker -----Original Message----- >From: Tom >Sent: Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM >To: GDG >Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual >Gettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and >folks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And >will be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human >database (Antietam LBG). > >Regards, >Tom B. (red in the face) > ------------------------------ Message: 39 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:21:43 -0800 From: Matt Diestel To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes: > > In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders > required him to cover Baltimore as well. > > Regards, > >
 George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums. > Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed > capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to cover > Boston as well. > With regards, Chet ------------------------------ Message: 40 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:09:49 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna
 during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee:
 ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N
 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > I love you Man.... > > But I DO doubt it...... > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
 Harrisburg. To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To > do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he > had before the AoP would have been close. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >> is a fascinating
 river. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Gillespie >> Parsippany, NJ >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>> >>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > the >>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>> >>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge >>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>> >>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>> >>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant > number of >>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > well >>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>> >>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river > but >>> not infantry. >>> >>> In magazines like American Heritage I have
 read stories of loggers > putting >>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing > stories. >>> >>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > The >>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in > Manhatten I >>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>> >>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>> >>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > The >>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to > water level >>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and >>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>> >>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>> >>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in
 Wrightsville and I am > >>> sticking to it. >>> >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff: >>> >>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > City >>> Island across from the city? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>> To: GDG >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that > is >>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>> flowed free. >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>> To:
 gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side > of >>> the river. >>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>> capital and RR center. >>>> >>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > it >>> to >>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the
 Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > on >>> the >>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>> from >>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, > the >>> ANV >>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to > save >>> it. >>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>> bridges >>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another >>> until >>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>> later >>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't > easily >>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered >>> bridge >>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > the >>> flames >>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Margaret >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From:
 "Tom" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > fire >>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>> >>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>> >>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as > aggressive
 as >>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, > Antietam, >>> >>>> Gtysbg, >>>> & Monocacy. >>>> >>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as > being a >>>> balanced combination. >>>> >>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>> >>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old > Warhorse. >>>> >>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>> about >>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > his. >>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>> >>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming > forces >>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>> >>>> The purpose
 of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 41 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:14:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG-
 Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1327443297.76363.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it was built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in 1913. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Andy Mills >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jeff: > >Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City Island across from the city?? > >Thanks, > >-----Original Message----- >From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >To: GDG >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river
 has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. > > >?Namaste >? >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but >>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >> >>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river. >>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >>capital and RR center. >> >>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. >> >>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >> >>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>Tom-The militia destroyed
 it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the >>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from >>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames >>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Margaret >> >>----- Original? Message -----
 >>From: "Tom" >>To: "GDG"? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>> And >>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >>Regards, Tom B.? >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>Dave, >> >>Respectfully Sir, >> >>I think we disagree,? sir. >> >>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example,
 Antietam, >>Gtysbg, >>& Monocacy. >> >>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>balanced? combination. >> >>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. >> >>The Hammer was Jackson. >> >>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >> >>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? >> >>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. >> >>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >>Everything else was a subset. >> >>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter? >> >> >> >> >>
 >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 42 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:18:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Richardson To: GDG Subject: Re:
 GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1327443526.39587.YahooMailNeo at web114607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ?Jackson used surprise to keeps the? Yanks off balance A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter, ? You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so secretive he did not inform his staff as to his plans. Respectfully, ? ? ?William Richardson ? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.? ------------------------------ Message: 43 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG-
 Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1327443803.4814.YahooMailNeo at web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer is that on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: John Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island? >Regards, >Jack > >Jeff Burk wrote: > >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. >> >> >>?Namaste >>? >>Jeff Burk >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From:
 "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very >>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>> >>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river.? >>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >>>capital and RR center. >>> >>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. >>> >>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>Peter? >>> >>> >>>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>> >>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.?
 Harrisburg is on the >>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from >>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >>>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames >>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. >>> >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>> >>>Margaret >>> >>>----- Original? Message ----- >>>From: "Tom" >>>To: "GDG"? >>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >>>Subject: Re:
 GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>>> And >>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >>>without a >>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >>>Regards, Tom B.? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>Dave, >>> >>>Respectfully Sir, >>> >>>I think we disagree,? sir. >>> >>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >>>Gtysbg, >>>& Monocacy. >>> >>>I am not
 dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>>balanced? combination. >>> >>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. >>> >>>The Hammer was Jackson. >>> >>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >>> >>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >>>without a >>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? >>> >>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. >>> >>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >>>Everything else was a subset. >>> >>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>Peter? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
 >>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>? -to unsubscribe >>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>? -to unsubscribe >>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >>> >>> >>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 44 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:25:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Richardson To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1327443903.54227.YahooMailNeo at web114620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From:?"CWMHTours at aol.com" To:?gettysburg at arthes.com? Sent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM Subject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: George.... Think of the consequences for Lee. Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact? artmy.? He? takes that army on the wrong side of the? river. Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the? CW.? Before Ant.? they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to? mention Jackson? falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian? church. Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with? danger.? You don't just go? in and parade around.? You risk losing? control of yo0ur army. Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a? city. And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being? on
 tne? wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the? Cumberlaand??? Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going? into Harrisburg.? To me? it makes no sense. So I do doubt it., A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter, ? I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on capturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the Susquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I think he planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw panic throughout the North.? ? Respectfully, ? ? ?William Richardson ? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who
 resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.? ------------------------------ Message: 45 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:17 -0500 From: "Tom Barrett" To: "'GDG'" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that
 far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863:
 "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go
 over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed
 GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > I love you Man.... > > But I DO doubt it...... > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti
 Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To > do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he > had before the AoP would have been close. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >> is a fascinating river. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Gillespie >> Parsippany, NJ >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012
 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>> >>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > the >>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>> >>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge >>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>> >>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>> >>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant > number of >>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > well >>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>> >>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river > but >>> not infantry. >>> >>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers > putting >>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from
 NY. Pretty amazing > stories. >>> >>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > The >>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in > Manhatten I >>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>> >>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>> >>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > The >>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to > water level >>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and >>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>> >>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>> >>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am > >>> sticking to it. >>> >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>
 Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff: >>> >>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > City >>> Island across from the city? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>> To: GDG >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that > is >>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>> flowed free. >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG-
 Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side > of >>> the river. >>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>> capital and RR center. >>>> >>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > it >>> to >>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > on >>> the >>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to
 attack the city >>> from >>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, > the >>> ANV >>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to > save >>> it. >>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>> bridges >>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another >>> until >>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>> later >>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't > easily >>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered >>> bridge >>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > the >>> flames >>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Margaret >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tom" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable
 defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > fire >>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>> >>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>> >>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as > aggressive as >>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, > Antietam, >>> >>>> Gtysbg,
 >>>> & Monocacy. >>>> >>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as > being a >>>> balanced combination. >>>> >>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>> >>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old > Warhorse. >>>> >>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>> about >>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > his. >>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>> >>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming > forces >>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>> >>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>>
 A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12
 ------------------------------ Message: 46 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:40:19 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <66EA56B8-F7B0-40AD-A729-CC0FFB94CCFE at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take that at face value. As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that river with at least
 most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact! Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the
 railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we
 may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to
 Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George >
 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to
 hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central
 New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move
 fast east of the river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night
 worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during
 the war the river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>>
 mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be
 the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
 >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made
 of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
 >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 47 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:58:53 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar -
 in 2005 - the article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left under PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and it is written by Tony. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/index.htm Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take that at face value. As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and destroying the
 east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact! Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with
 its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or >
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry >
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can
 speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N,
 not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is
 extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >>
 number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I
 need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject:
 Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns
 sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>>> later >>>>>
 but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>
 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee
 being concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to
 unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
 unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 48 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:05 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Well, George- As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little battleship out of the water (Oh the humanity!). I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's completely plausible. But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture Harrisburg". I can't see him being fixated on it. Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance to take a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition level associated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to have a battle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces.
 Then your enemy counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more pieces. And if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the whole thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in the assault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of overwhelming force and neither side had it so they chewed each other up. Do you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some other miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all four years. It is so instructive. I don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the Old Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have an advantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming force and balance. By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage. He could knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great Poker Player Lee's best asset was his focus on
 manueverablity. What happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card. Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in the saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of Camp Curtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP occupations of Frederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into the problem a bit. And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been done in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other forces are brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could have been sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in Balt. Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and ammo would be running low. And for what? Harrisburg? It was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base. Military value. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town, was built by
 then. Camp Curtain- a military target. But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting Richmond? Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army across that massive river he's screwed. I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town... He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch, Stanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and destroy it "The enemy is there and we shall attack". I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent in enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a ransom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town and eventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross the Susq R and get back to the Cumberland. I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the risk of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded
 in a Northern city with no communications to the South. Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city with mud streets full of yokels? Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement. FOOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell ( Sorry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil War. RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read Walker's efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam. I've been on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge a number of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a look. FOOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes. George- do you like my new sign-off? A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in
 trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for
 Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > I love you Man.... > > But I DO doubt it...... > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling
 asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To > do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he > had before
 the AoP would have been close. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >> is a fascinating river. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Gillespie >> Parsippany, NJ >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>> >>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > the >>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>> >>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge >>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>> >>> Someone
 correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>> >>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant > number of >>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > well >>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>> >>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river > but >>> not infantry. >>> >>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers > putting >>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing > stories. >>> >>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > The >>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in > Manhatten I >>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>> >>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>
 >>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > The >>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to > water level >>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and >>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>> >>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>> >>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am > >>> sticking to it. >>> >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff: >>> >>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > City >>> Island across from the city? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>> To: GDG >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that > is >>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>> flowed free. >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side > of >>> the river. >>>> Harrisburg was no
 significant military goal other than being a state >>>> capital and RR center. >>>> >>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > it >>> to >>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > on >>> the >>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>> from >>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, > the >>> ANV >>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to > save >>> it. >>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>> bridges >>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another >>> until >>>>
 Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>> later >>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't > easily >>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered >>> bridge >>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > the >>> flames >>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Margaret >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tom" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > fire >>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
 >>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>> >>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>> >>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying >>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as > aggressive as >>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, > Antietam, >>> >>>> Gtysbg, >>>> & Monocacy. >>>> >>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as > being a >>>> balanced combination. >>>> >>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>> >>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old > Warhorse. >>>> >>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall
 reference to Lee being concerned >>> about >>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > his. >>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>> >>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming > forces >>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>> >>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 49 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:00 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <000696B1B0E84B3C8714CADF48469D1E at TomPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8; reply-type=original Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards,
 Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and
 waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to
 Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ?
 Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" ------------------------------ Message: 50 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:45 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG-
 ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{) I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg. I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{) I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take that at face value. As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west
 railroad to check the political box es and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact! Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
 between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L,
 vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the
 Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
 cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
 >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it
 gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry
 east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And
 more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
 >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side
 of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before
 dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original
 Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>>>
 about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
 unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 51 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:34 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8; reply-type=response Would have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness - link is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I meant to include you ;-D Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG'
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB Archives
 ------------------------------ Message: 52 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:16:43 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Can you please forward an addendum to that for our files? Thank you. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:41:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders required him to cover Baltimore as well. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes: >> > > >> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided >> their forces prior to the battle. >> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already >> trapped, so what the
 hey. >> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the >> Cumberland that was never going to happen. >> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in >> piecemeal. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not >> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time. >> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the >> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions >> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the >> same time. > > With regards, > Chet > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 53 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:19:42 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <565D0F01-BC13-476E-83BC-61551E368591 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the Park has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal? Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ > > Regards, Tom B. > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM > To: 'GDG' > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original
 Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.?
 O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to
 Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 54 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:20:21 +0000 (UTC) From: "Margaret D. Blough" To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1786146023.433145.1327450821054.JavaMail.root at sz0190a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. Regards, Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
 side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not
 in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg
 (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 55 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:19 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bunco973 at optonline.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Would have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness - link is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I meant to include you ;-D Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG-
 ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the
 Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 56 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:30 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on it - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are priceless - stumbled upon this while searching
 for something else - I actually have the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is cheaper ;-D , and better. Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the Park has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal? Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same > link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On > Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ > > Regards, Tom B. > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM > To: 'GDG' > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member
 Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg > the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail > between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or > wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for > the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original
 Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on > his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.?
 O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, > p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. > 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going
 to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony > Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, > 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot > do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 57 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:25:47 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg Message-ID: <39563785-FB3D-4D2E-A2F9-CF0D6F95B084 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Peter, You start off OK, but before you know you're back in that hole again, digging, digging, and digging. Put down the shovel and accept that Lee hoped to have at least two of his corps east of the Susquehanna. He said so! We don't know for how long or what would come next, but's a fact. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Well, George- > > As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my
 little battleship out > of the water (Oh the humanity!). > > I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's > completely plausible. > > But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending > correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture Harrisburg". > > I can't see him being fixated on it. > > Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance to > take a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition level > associated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to have a > battle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces. Then your enemy > counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more pieces. > And if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the whole > thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in the > assault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of overwhelming force > and neither side
 had it so they chewed each other up. > > Do you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some > other miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all four > years. It is so instructive. > > I don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the Old > Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have an > advantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming force > and balance. > > By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage. He > could knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great Poker > Player Lee's best asset was his focus on manueverablity. > > What happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card. > > Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in the > saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of Camp > Curtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP
 occupations of > Frederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into the > problem a bit. > > And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been done > in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other forces > are brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could have > been sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in Balt. > Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and ammo > would be running low. > > And for what? Harrisburg? > > It was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base. Military > value. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town, was > built by then. Camp Curtain- a military target. > > But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting > Richmond? > > Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army > across that massive river he's screwed. > > I can see him
 telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town... > > He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch, > Stanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and destroy it > "The enemy is there and we shall attack". > > I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent in > enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a > ransom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town and > eventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross > the Susq R and get back to the Cumberland. > > I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the risk > of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a Northern > city with no communications to the South. > > Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of > his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city with mud >
 streets full of yokels? > > Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement. > > FOOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell ( > Sorry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil War. > RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read Walker's > efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam. I've > been on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge a > number of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a look. > > FOOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes. > > George- do you like my new sign-off? > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from > Richmond
 with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says > Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania > railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. > (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on > operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? > O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. > 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. > Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and
 Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He > chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had > advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must > be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, > but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? > Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. > Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield > Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, > wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, > in a
 lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot > do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. > He >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention > Jackson >> falling asleep during the
 sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just > go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into > Harrisburg. To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. > To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How > long >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time
 he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi
 north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in > low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the > river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half
 of the C Bay is > a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix > here!). >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up > to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > >> City >>>> Island across from the city?
 >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However > that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the > river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts > but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put
 more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east > side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a > state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates > using >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the > city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The
 Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be > rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time > and >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just
 how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination.
 >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being > concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn > thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >
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 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 58 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:28 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hey Tom- Don't worry about it. My cat types with one paw. He's a good little cat. I just wish he would display some kind of respect for me. I have never seen it yet tho. Before I feed him he shows a lot of love then after I feed him it is back to disrespect. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bunco973 at optonline.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Would have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness - link is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I meant to include you ;-D Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24,
 2012 7:08 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force
 trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 59 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:41 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <2531AB69-8016-40C0-8231-F333F43FB036 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place for it. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at
 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{) > > I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg. > > I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{) > > I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there > is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to > cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think > we should take that at face value. > > As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big > one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and > was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
 > Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box > es and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. > > But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross > that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a > fact! > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg > the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP > rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. > But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped
 on the East > side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail > between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or > wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for > the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of George Connell >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: >> >> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up >> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at > Frederick, >> he says Lee told him that the Army was
 going to Harrisburg, destroy the >> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or >> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on > his >> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. >> >> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in >> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. >> >> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture >> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 >> >> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, >> p.. 316. >> >> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture >> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 >> >> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, >> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad >> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. > Hill, p. >> 204 >> >> ? "Then 'Jeb'
 started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. >> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry >> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, > they >> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. > 137. >> >> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as >> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is >> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. >> >> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous >> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the >> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed >> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 >> >> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the >> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony > Nicastro, >> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
 > 6/28/6 >> >> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it >> gets repetitious. >> >> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you > cannot do >> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of >> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> George.... >>> >>> I love you Man.... >>> >>> But I DO doubt it...... >>> >>> Think of the consequences for Lee. >>> >>> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. > He >> >>> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >>> >>> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before > Ant. >>> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention > Jackson >>> falling asleep during the sermon in the
 Presbytyrian church. >>> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just > go >>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >>> >>> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >>> >>> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >>> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > >>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into > Harrisburg. >> To me >>> it makes no sense. >>> >>> So I do doubt it., >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Peter, >>> >>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. > To >>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How > long >> >>> they would stay is another question and very much depends
 on how much >> time he >>> had before the AoP would have been close. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> George >>> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>>> is a fascinating river. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Dave Gillespie >>>> Parsippany, NJ >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>>> >>>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source > of >>> the >>>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>>> >>>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
 >> huge >>>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>>> >>>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in > low >>>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>>> >>>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >>> number of >>>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might > as >>> well >>>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>>> >>>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the > river >>> but >>>>> not infantry. >>>>> >>>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >>> putting >>>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >>> stories. >>>>> >>>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East > Coast. >>> The >>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >>> Manhatten I >>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a
 high > rise. >>>>> >>>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is > a >>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>>> >>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix > here!). >> >>> The >>>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up > to >>> water level >>>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, >> and >>>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>>> >>>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>>> >>>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >>> >>>>> sticking to it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Jeff: >>>>> >>>>> Out
 of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just > below >>> City >>>>> Island across from the city? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >>> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>>> To: GDG >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However > that >>> is >>>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the > river >>>>> flowed free. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Namaste >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Burk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>>> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow
 in summer droughts > but >>>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>>> >>>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east > side >>> of >>>>> the river. >>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a > state >>>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>>> >>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>>> Peter >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates > using >> >>> it >>>>> to >>>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg > is >>> on >>>>> the >>>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the > city >>>>> from >>>>>> both sides.
 While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >>> the >>>>> ANV >>>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried > to >>> save >>>>> it. >>>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>>> bridges >>>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't >> another >>>>> until >>>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be > rebuilt >>>>> later >>>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >>> easily >>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone >> covered >>>>> bridge >>>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time > and >> >>> the >>>>> flames >>>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Margaret >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
 >>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>>> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>>> And >>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn > thing >>> over >>>>>> without a >>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > >>> fire >>>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>>> >>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>> Dave, >>>>>> >>>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about >> destroying >>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >>>
 aggressive as >>>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >>> Antietam, >>>>> >>>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >>> being a >>>>>> balanced combination. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >>> Warhorse. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being > concerned >>>>> about >>>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > >>> his. >>>>> And >>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn > thing >>> over >>>>>> without a >>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>>> >>>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >>> forces
 >>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>>> >>>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the > North. >>>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>>> >>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>>> Peter >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>>> m >>>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>>> m >>>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 60 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:29:35 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thank you Margaret- Would you mind telling George that you are on my side of the matter? A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 7:20:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors"
 supporting the President) and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. Regards, Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like
 a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade
 division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ?
 "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight
 respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 61 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:53 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" George! There's still dirt down here! I have to get it out! I have to. I am making proigress, I can't stop now. I
 just have to keep digging deeper and then everything will be OK A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 7:26:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, You start off OK, but before you know you're back in that hole again, digging, digging, and digging. Put down the shovel and accept that Lee hoped to have at least two of his corps east of the Susquehanna. He said so! We don't know for how long or what would come next, but's a fact. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Well, George- > > As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little battleship out > of the water (Oh the humanity!). > > I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's > completely plausible. > > But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending > correspondence with Ol' Jeff
 going "Gee I'd really like to capture Harrisburg". > > I can't see him being fixated on it. > > Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance to > take a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition level > associated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to have a > battle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces. Then your enemy > counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more pieces. > And if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the whole > thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in the > assault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of overwhelming force > and neither side had it so they chewed each other up. > > Do you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some > other miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all four > years. It is so instructive. > > I don't think Lee was
 sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the Old > Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have an > advantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming force > and balance. > > By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage. He > could knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great Poker > Player Lee's best asset was his focus on manueverablity. > > What happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card. > > Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in the > saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of Camp > Curtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP occupations of > Frederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into the > problem a bit. > > And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been done > in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN
 other forces > are brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could have > been sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in Balt. > Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and ammo > would be running low. > > And for what? Harrisburg? > > It was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base. Military > value. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town, was > built by then. Camp Curtain- a military target. > > But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting > Richmond? > > Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army > across that massive river he's screwed. > > I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town... > > He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch, > Stanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and destroy it > "The enemy is there and we shall
 attack". > > I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent in > enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a > ransom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town and > eventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross > the Susq R and get back to the Cumberland. > > I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the risk > of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a Northern > city with no communications to the South. > > Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of > his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city with mud > streets full of yokels? > > Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement. > > FOOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell ( > Sorry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil War. > RE: the
 destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read Walker's > efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam. I've > been on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge a > number of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a look. > > FOOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes. > > George- do you like my new sign-off? > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from > Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says > Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania > railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. > (B&L, vol. 3). See also
 R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on > operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? > O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. > 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. > Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He > chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had > advanced to the Susquehanna and were
 not in the vicinity of York, they must > be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, > but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? > Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. > Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield > Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, > wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, > in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot > do is doubt
 any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. > He >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention > Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just > go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir,
 please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into > Harrisburg. To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. > To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How > long >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past
 Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in > low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of
 the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the > river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is > a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix > here!). >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And
 more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up > to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable
 defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However > that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the > river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts > but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east > side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a > state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting
 on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates > using >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the > city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be > rebuilt >>>> later >>>>>
 but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time > and >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>
 >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to
 Lee being > concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn > thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > --- -------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m
 >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 62 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:32:16
 -0500 From: "Tom Barrett" To: "'GDG'" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <07806C821B26439E89206B34DFD26EAA at BIFF> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a serious read as opposed to a quick scan. But thank! Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005 - the article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left under PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and it is written by Tony. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/ index.htm Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January
 24, 2012 5:40 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take that at face value. As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact! Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original
 Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.?
 O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to
 Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >>
 But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a
 message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24,
 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a
 good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >>
 >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com"
 >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross
 over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>>
 >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with
 Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up
 north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >
 -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 /
 Virus Database: 2109/4764 - Release Date: 01/24/12 ------------------------------ Message: 63 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <729445D5BCB54FC29D7666C9F160312B at TomPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars to your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through it. Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place for it. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{) > > I wudda told
 Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg. > > I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{) > > I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > ------------------------------ Message: 64 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:30 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8; reply-type=original Welcome Tom B. #1 - same offer goes out to ya. Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:32 PM To: 'GDG' Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: This is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a serious read as opposed to a quick scan. But thank! Regards, TB -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005 - the article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left under PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and it is written by Tony. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/ index.htm Regards, Tom B. -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take that at face value. As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living
 off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact! Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving
 force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy
 the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more
 but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go >> in and parade around. You risk
 losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave
 Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a > huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>>> water on the R at
 Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No
 politix here!). > >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, > and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On
 Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military
 goal other than being a state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't > another >>>> until
 >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone > covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite
 supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about > destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter
 Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>
 > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12 > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4764 - Release Date: 01/24/12 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 65 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Wow~ Another complement. I am going to put another mark on the
 wall here. Pisses the landlord off but makes me feel good. BTW- did you tell George this? He just sank my battleship. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, general.jackson at yahoo.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jackson used surprise to keeps the Yanks off balance A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Peter, You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so secretive he did not inform his staff as to his plans. Respectfully, William Richardson Mount Gilead, North Carolina Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of
 denial. ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 66 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:10:50 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <2771B6B0-EA6A-4844-AA63-A1450B9C043F at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars like this. It's great stuff! George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars to your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through it. > > Regards, > Tom B. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place for it. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{) >> >> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg. >> >> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{) >> >> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you. >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 67 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:16:23 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <7BBC3919-0ECD-434B-B212-117EAB294669 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=windows-1252 Oops. Missed this answer. Thanks again. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:24 PM, Tom wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on it - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are priceless - stumbled upon this while searching for something else - I actually have the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is cheaper ;-D , and better. > Regards, > Tom B. > > > > -----Original Message----- From: George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the Park has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal? > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member
 Contributes: >> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ >> >> Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM >> To: 'GDG' >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on
 the East side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of George Connell >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: >> >> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up >> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, >> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to
 Harrisburg, destroy the >> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or >> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his >> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. >> >> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in >> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. >> >> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture >> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 >> >> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, >> p.. 316. >> >> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture >> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 >> >> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, >> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad >> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. >> 204 >> >> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the
 entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. >> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry >> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they >> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. >> >> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as >> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is >> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. >> >> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous >> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the >> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed >> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 >> >> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the >> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, >> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 >> >> Now
 that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it >> gets repetitious. >> >> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do >> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of >> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 68 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0600 From:
 "Jack Lawrence" To: "gdG" Subject: GDG- Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars Message-ID: <350C14ECEF1B4F378BAB3F357E670D7D at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original For those who care. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:51 AM Subject: ALBG Scholarly Seminars > http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/seminar.html ------------------------------ Message: 69 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:30:27 -0500 From: Tom To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 You're quite welcome - as a matter of fact - they do have a seminar this April 13th - 15th - you have to register - link below: http://www.nps.gov/gett/historyculture/2012-seminar.htm We?ve already booked it ? a great program ? 2 tours ? seminars ? and an evening with David Kincaid ? singing Irish C.W. ballads. Well worth it!!! Regards, Tom B.
 -----Original Message----- From: George Connell Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:10 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Thanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars like this. It's great stuff! George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars to your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through it. > > Regards, > Tom B. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place for it. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: >> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{) >> >> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg. >> >> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{) >> >> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you. >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 70 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:35:24 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Margaret, I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as
 possible across the Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible. If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one another. Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we die." Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote: >
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. > > > Regards, > > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same > link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. > 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ > > Regards,
 Tom B. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barrett > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM > To: 'GDG' > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863,
 June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow,
 gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. >
 > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 71 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:18 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Margaret, I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as
 possible. If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one another. Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we die." Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Tom-The Second Corps was just across
 the river from Harrisburg and prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. > > > Regards, > > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same > link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. > 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ > > Regards, Tom B. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barrett > Sent:
 Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM > To: 'GDG' > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the >
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's
 Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to
 Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > > > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/m ailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 72 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:41:00 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 WIlliam, I just don't know how more scholarly references to provide. I'm not saying it was a good idea or a bad one. I'm not trying to justify the benefits or minimize the risks. I'm just pointing out that Lee SAID he wanted to go to Harrisburg and he gave instructions to Ewell and
 Hill to cross that river. Best, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:25 PM, William Richardson wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" > To: gettysburg at arthes.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit
 Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Peter, > > I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on capturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the > Susquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I think he planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw > panic throughout the North. > > Respectfully, > > William Richardson > Mount Gilead, North Carolina > > > Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under
 supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 73 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:57 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dammit George! Another excellent contribution. I hate that from you. You are much better than me. But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg, just the minimum possible. As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with me? We'll get John Grim. He knows good chili. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: Margaret, I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible. If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one another. Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of audacious commanders
 burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we die." Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. > > > Regards, > > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same >
 link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. > 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ > > Regards, Tom B. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barrett > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM > To: 'GDG' > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs.
 (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > -----Original Message----- > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] > On Behalf Of George Connell > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM > To: GDG > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up > from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, > he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R.
 E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture > it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, > p.. 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. > 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. > He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had advanced to the Susquehanna and were
 not in the vicinity of York, they > must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as > expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is > after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the > passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, > LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do > is doubt
 any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 74 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:55:57 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Diestel" To:
 "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:36 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes: >> > > >> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided >> their forces prior to the battle. >> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already >> trapped, so what the hey. >> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the >> Cumberland that was never going to happen. >> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in >> piecemeal. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was >> not >> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same >> time. >> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the >> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions >> requiring the army
 to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the >> same time. > > With regards, > Chet >Chet, His specific orders were not to intercept Lee and cover Washington. They were to cover washington and ddefeat Lee. Little more leeway in that. Regards, Jack \ Hooker had consistently wanted to grapple lee down on the river, and IMHO, was content foe Lee to come back out. ------------------------------ Message: 75 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:00:22 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <49577D2414FF4C16ABD9B3712835F0C1 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original If Meade had maintained Hooker's position, hje was prepared to move and intercept Lee from Marylan if Lee came out of the Cumberland valley. Given that Halleck and kincoln were well aware of Lee's movement north had really considered any border incursion as a serious threat, I think it is unlikely that they
 really cared what Lee did as long as DC was safe. they were concentrated on Vicksburg at the time. I get the impression that lincoln, at least, was pretty sanguibe about the whole thing, other than an oppurtunity to defeat Lee. There was never a real threat. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Diestel" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:21 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes: > > In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders > required him to cover Baltimore as well. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums. > Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed > capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to > cover > Boston as well. > With regards, Chet
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 76 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:07:19 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thank you, Peter. I don't think he would have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having captured it, I expect he would have quickly reduced the number to that sufficient to control the town and destroy its war-fighting facilities. One reason is that there were important objectives outside Harrisburg to be destroyed. For that we have a bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to follow in trace of Ewell, but then to focus on targets east of Harrisburg. Another reason is that he would have had to maneuver quickly to fight the various Union corps separately. You can be sure, if actually were to have
 happened, that Lee would never sit still and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a well-rested and well-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been everything. Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Dammit George! > > Another excellent contribution. > > I hate that from you. > > You are much better than me. > > But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg, > just the minimum possible. > > As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with me? > We'll get John Grim. He knows good chili. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Margaret, > > I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to > assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the >
 Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible. > > If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river > (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's > on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to > speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been > willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, > however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the > locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps > were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to > provide meaningful support to one another. > > Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of > audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we > die." > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret
 D. Blough wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and > prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the > move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite > serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any > significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of > PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) > and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Margaret >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom" >> To: "GDG" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same >> link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On > Pg. >> 103 - "Why Harrisburg"
 (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ >> >> Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Barrett >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM >> To: 'GDG' >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg > the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP > rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail > between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or > wherever.) >>
 >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for > the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of George Connell >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: >> >> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up >> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at > Frederick, >> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the >> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or >> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on >
 his >> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. >> >> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in >> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. >> >> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture >> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 >> >> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, >> p.. 316. >> >> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture >> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 >> >> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, >> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad >> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. > Hill, p. >> 204 >> >> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. >> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern > infantry >> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in
 the vicinity of York, > they >> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. > 137. >> >> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as >> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is >> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. >> >> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous >> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block > the >> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed >> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 >> >> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the >> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony > Nicastro, >> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, > 6/28/6 >> >> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but > it >> gets repetitious. >> >> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what
 you > cannot do >> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of >> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 77 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:11:32
 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yayyyyy!!!!! Finally Sir- We see finally eye-to-eye. I can see putting a raiding/expeditionary force into Hrsbg but to invest it would be nuts. Just suicide. You are so much cooler than me. I find that hard to accept. O well.... A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:07:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at mac.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Thank you, Peter. I don't think he would have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having captured it, I expect he would have quickly reduced the number to that sufficient to control the town and destroy its war-fighting facilities. One reason is that there were important objectives outside Harrisburg to be destroyed. For that we have a bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to follow in trace of Ewell, but then to
 focus on targets east of Harrisburg. Another reason is that he would have had to maneuver quickly to fight the various Union corps separately. You can be sure, if actually were to have happened, that Lee would never sit still and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a well-rested and well-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been everything. Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Dammit George! > > Another excellent contribution. > > I hate that from you. > > You are much better than me. > > But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg, > just the minimum possible. > > As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with me? > We'll get John Grim. He knows good chili. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG
 Member Contributes: > Margaret, > > I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to > assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the > Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible. > > If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river > (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's > on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to > speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been > willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, > however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the > locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps > were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to > provide meaningful support to one another. > > Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a
 number of > audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we > die." > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and > prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the > move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite > serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any > significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of > PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) > and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Margaret >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom" >> To: "GDG" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member
 Contributes: >> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same >> link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On > Pg. >> 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ >> >> Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Barrett >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM >> To: 'GDG' >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg > the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP > rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving
 force trapped on the East > side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail > between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or > wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for > the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >> On Behalf Of George Connell >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM >> To: GDG >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: >> >> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up >> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at > Frederick, >> he says Lee told him that the
 Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the >> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or >> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on > his >> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. >> >> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in >> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. >> >> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture >> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 >> >> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, >> p.. 316. >> >> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture >> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 >> >> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, >> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad >> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. > Hill, p. >> 204 >> >> ?
 "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. >> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern > infantry >> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, > they >> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. > 137. >> >> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as >> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is >> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. >> >> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous >> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block > the >> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed >> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 >> >> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the >> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony > Nicastro, >> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, > 6/28/6 >> >> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but > it >> gets repetitious. >> >> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you > cannot do >> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of >> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> George >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 78 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:12:25 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: GDG- Raid vs Occupation Message-ID: <27DBFFCDD111414097FD75D0A190610B at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Hello. Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head. Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he wanted to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear. Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but a raid. Raid is defined as
 an operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy. Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete. Time to go home. Let's not make this more than it was. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol
 II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around
 Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and
 he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > I love you Man.... > > But I DO doubt it...... > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To > do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he > had before the AoP would have been close. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >> in South Central New
 York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >> is a fascinating river. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Gillespie >> Parsippany, NJ >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>> >>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > the >>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>> >>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a >>> huge >>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>> >>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>> >>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant > number of >>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > well >>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>> >>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river > but
 >>> not infantry. >>> >>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers > putting >>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing > stories. >>> >>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > The >>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in > Manhatten I >>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>> >>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>> >>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > The >>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to > water level >>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, >>> and >>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>> >>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It
 is pretty scary. >>> >>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am > >>> sticking to it. >>> >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff: >>> >>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > City >>> Island across from the city? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>> To: GDG >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that > is >>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>> flowed free. >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>>
 ________________________________ >>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side > of >>> the river. >>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>> capital and RR center. >>>> >>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the
 Confederates using > it >>> to >>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > on >>> the >>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>> from >>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, > the >>> ANV >>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to > save >>> it. >>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>> bridges >>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't >>>> another >>> until >>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>> later >>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't > easily >>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone >>>> covered >>> bridge >>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > the >>> flames >>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>> >>>> >>>>
 Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Margaret >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tom" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > fire >>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>> >>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>> >>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about >>>>
 destroying >>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as > aggressive as >>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, > Antietam, >>> >>>> Gtysbg, >>>> & Monocacy. >>>> >>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as > being a >>>> balanced combination. >>>> >>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>> >>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old > Warhorse. >>>> >>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>> about >>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > his. >>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>> >>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >
 forces >>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>> >>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/
 for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 79 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:18:30 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and was almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have the resources to penetrate it. It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move. Kinda like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Hello. Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head. Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he
 wanted to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear. Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but a raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy. Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete. Time to go home. Let's not make this more than it was. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond with his two-brigade division,
 reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb'
 started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected
 sources; I have more but it gets repetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > George.... > > I love you Man.... > > But I DO doubt it...... > > Think of the consequences for Lee. > > Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He > takes that army on the wrong side of the river. > > Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. > they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson > falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. > Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go > in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur
 army. > > Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. > > And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne > wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? > Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. > To me > it makes no sense. > > So I do doubt it., > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > georgeconnell at mac.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To > do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long > they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much > time he > had before the AoP would have been close. > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> The
 Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >> is a fascinating river. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Gillespie >> Parsippany, NJ >> >> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>> >>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of > the >>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>> >>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a >>> huge >>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>> >>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low >>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>> >>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant > number
 of >>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as > well >>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>> >>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river > but >>> not infantry. >>> >>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers > putting >>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing > stories. >>> >>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. > The >>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in > Manhatten I >>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise. >>> >>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a >>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>> >>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). > The >>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>> crabs!). And more
 frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to > water level >>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, >>> and >>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>> >>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>> >>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am > >>> sticking to it. >>> >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jeff: >>> >>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below > City >>> Island across from the city? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com > [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>> To: GDG >>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member
 Contributes: >>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that > is >>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river >>> flowed free. >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but >>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side > of >>> the river. >>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state >>>> capital and RR center. >>>> >>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using > it >>> to >>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is > on >>> the >>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city >>> from >>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, > the >>> ANV >>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to > save >>> it. >>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>> bridges >>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't >>>> another >>> until >>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt >>> later >>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't > easily >>>> obtained. The
 Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone >>>> covered >>> bridge >>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and > the >>> flames >>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Margaret >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tom" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by > fire >>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>> To:
 gettysburg at arthes.com >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>> >>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>> >>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about >>>> destroying >>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as > aggressive as >>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, > Antietam, >>> >>>> Gtysbg, >>>> & Monocacy. >>>> >>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as > being a >>>> balanced combination. >>>> >>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>> >>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old > Warhorse. >>>> >>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned >>> about >>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of > his. >>> And >>>> in fact, if you think about
 it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing > over >>>> without a >>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>> >>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming > forces >>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>> >>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North. >>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>> m -to
 unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 80 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:27:15 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <7AEDD7441304441E937227EC05889880 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" To: "'GDG'" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some
 detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB Hello. You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on the GDG. There is a certain
 innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). Regards, Jack BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. ------------------------------ Message: 81 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jack... I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest Harrisburg. Can you please address him in this matter? I really like the guy but I
 don't see no investment of the city. Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I think it is worth the effort. ;-{) !!!!! A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" To: "'GDG'" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force
 trapped on the East side of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. Regards, TB Hello. You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on the GDG. There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). Regards, Jack BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. I
 have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 82 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:49:04 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original First, We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!! Mary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our captain is Italian. I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but not lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression I picked up somewhere. Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs
 Occupation > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of > Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and > was > almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have > the > resources to penetrate it. > > It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move. > Kinda > like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Hello. > > Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head. > Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he > wanted > to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear. > Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid > enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into
 anything but > a > raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a > swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the > enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal > upon > completion of the assigned mission. > > The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy. > > Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete. > > Time to go home. > > Let's not make this more than it was. > > Regards, > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Connell" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from > Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he > says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania
 railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on > his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? > O.R., > 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. > 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. > > Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross > the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between > Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He >
 chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had > advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must > be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, > > but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? > Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, > wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, > in > a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have
 more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot > do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. > He >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention >> Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just >> go >> in and parade
 around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into > Harrisburg. >> To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. >> To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How > long >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much >> time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George > >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012,
 at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a >>>> huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in > low >>>> water
 on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the >>>> river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East >>>> Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high >>>> rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is > a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is
 an environmental issue (No politix >>>> here!). >> The >>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up >>>> to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, >>>> and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >>
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However >>>> that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the > river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts > but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east >>>>> side >>
 of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a > state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates > using >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the > city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to
 cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't >>>>> another >>>> until >>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be > rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone >>>>> covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time >>>>> and >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of
 valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about >>>>> destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>>
 >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being > concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn >>>>> thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the > North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>>
 -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 83 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:51:52 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <31532F75B1914DCD975DDB9629A3802F at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack... > > I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. > > He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest > Harrisburg. > > Can you please address him in this matter? > > I
 really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. > > Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that > I > think it is worth the effort. > > ;-{) !!!!! > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Barrett" > To: "'GDG'" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg > the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP > rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into
 Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. > But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail > between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or > wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for > the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled > on > the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize > Lee > to an unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great > Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know > it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was there ever any
 means, to occupy > Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, > > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 84 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation Message-ID: <10953.10d3ab2c.3c50c977 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So what's wrong with an Italian captain? If you follow him closely you'll be the 2nd person off the boat when it
 starts to sink. Nuttin wrong with that. ;-{) Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but I hope it will make people leave me alone. A lot of Libertarians ask too many questions. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: First, We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!! Mary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our captain is Italian. I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but not lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression I picked up somewhere. Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > You are correct, Sir, but don't mention
 the fact that in keeping view of > Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and > was > almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have > the > resources to penetrate it. > > It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move. > Kinda > like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Hello. > > Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head. > Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he > wanted > to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear. > Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid > enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but > a > raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a >
 swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the > enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal > upon > completion of the assigned mission. > > The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy. > > Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete. > > Time to go home. > > Let's not make this more than it was. > > Regards, > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Connell" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Peter, > > Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: > > ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from > Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he > says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the > Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or > Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See
 also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on > his > thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. > > ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in > Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. > > ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? > O.R., > 27, pt.3. p.914 > > ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. > 316. > > ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture > Harrisburg. > > Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 > > ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, > cross > the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad > between > Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 > > ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He > chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry > had > advanced to the
 Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they > must > be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. > > ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, > > but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? > Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. > > ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous > utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the > passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed > Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 > > ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, > wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, > in > a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 > > Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it > gets repetitious. > > You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but
 what you cannot > do > is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east > of > the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. > > > Regards, > > George > 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> George.... >> >> I love you Man.... >> >> But I DO doubt it...... >> >> Think of the consequences for Lee. >> >> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. > He >> takes that army on the wrong side of the river. >> >> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant. >> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention >> Jackson >> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church. >> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just >> go >> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army. >> >> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not
 to capture a city. >> >> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne >> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand? >> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into > Harrisburg. >> To me >> it makes no sense. >> >> So I do doubt it., >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> georgeconnell at mac.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Peter, >> >> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. >> To >> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How > long >> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much >> time he >> had before the AoP would have been close. >> >> Regards, >> >> George > >> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" >> >> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> The Susquehanna
 River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg, >>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the >>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and >>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It >>> is a fascinating river. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Gillespie >>> Parsippany, NJ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, wrote: >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of >> the >>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state. >>>> >>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a >>>> huge >>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island. >>>> >>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in > low >>>> water on the R at Wrightsville. >>>> >>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any
 significant >> number of >>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as >> well >>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island. >>>> >>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the >>>> river >> but >>>> not infantry. >>>> >>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers >> putting >>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing >> stories. >>>> >>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East >>>> Coast. >> The >>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in >> Manhatten I >>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high >>>> rise. >>>> >>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is > a >>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago. >>>> >>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix >>>> here!). >> The >>>> overflow is full of
 phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my >>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up >>>> to >> water level >>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, >>>> and >>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it. >>>> >>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary. >>>> >>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am >> >>>> sticking to it. >>>> >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jeff: >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >> City >>>> Island across from the city? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >>>> Sent: Tuesday,
 January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >>>> To: GDG >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However >>>> that >> is >>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the > river >>>> flowed free. >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts > but >>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>>> >>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an >>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east >>>>> side >> of >>>> the river. >>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
 > state >>>>> capital and RR center. >>>>> >>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates > using >> it >>>> to >>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is >> on >>>> the >>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the > city >>>> from >>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, >> the >>>> ANV >>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to >> save >>>> it. >>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but >>>> bridges >>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't >>>>> another >>>> until >>>>>
 Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be > rebuilt >>>> later >>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't >> easily >>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone >>>>> covered >>>> bridge >>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time >>>>> and >> the >>>> flames >>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Margaret >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tom" >>>>> To: "GDG" >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>>>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by >> fire >>>>> (not the
 granite supports of course), by Union militia. >>>>> Regards, Tom B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Sir, >>>>> >>>>> I think we disagree, sir. >>>>> >>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about >>>>> destroying >>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as >> aggressive as >>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, >> Antietam, >>>> >>>>> Gtysbg, >>>>> & Monocacy. >>>>> >>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as >> being a >>>>> balanced combination. >>>>> >>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil. >>>>> >>>>> The Hammer was Jackson. >>>>> >>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James
 Peter Longstreet, the Old >> Warhorse. >>>>> >>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being > concerned >>>> about >>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of >> his. >>>> And >>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of > big >>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn >>>>> thing >> over >>>>> without a >>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? >>>>> >>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming >> forces >>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force. >>>>> >>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the > North. >>>>> Everything else was a subset. >>>>> >>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
 Archives >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m >>>>> -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >>>> m -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 85 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:16:28 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Jack, First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over the river is more than a raid. I
 speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west of it? Breezewood? Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > To: "'GDG'" > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, >
 > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 86 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:18:33 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <3C068B9B-0B50-4DCA-B788-E4B5D8441C18 at me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Peter, I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down the shovel and look them up! Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack... > > I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. > > He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest > Harrisburg. > > Can you please
 address him in this matter? > > I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. > > Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I > think it is worth the effort. > > ;-{) !!!!! > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Barrett" > To: "'GDG'" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > >
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled > on > the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize > Lee > to an unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great > Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was
 there ever any means, to occupy > Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, > > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 87 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:26:39 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: <114d7.1489a0a0.3c50d06f at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Actually there's some good cheap restaurants in Breezewood. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a
 message dated 1/24/2012 10:17:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at me.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over the river is more than a raid. I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore.
 What's west of it? Breezewood? Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > To: "'GDG'" > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, > > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/
 for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 88 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:29:26 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <11606.3615928.3c50d116 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" You are a good man, my friend George. I have tuff standards for respect. Please... tell me I am full of crap any time.... It's good for me when it comes from people,who explain to me me why. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at me.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down the shovel and look them up! Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: >
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack... > > I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. > > He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest > Harrisburg. > > Can you please address him in this matter? > > I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. > > Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I > think it is worth the effort. > > ;-{) !!!!! > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Barrett" > To: "'GDG'" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession >
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled > on > the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize > Lee > to an
 unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great > Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy > Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, > > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
 Archives ------------------------------ Message: 89 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:32:10 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Jack, I think you need to take another look at a map! Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > > Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > > Regards, > > Jack > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack... >> >> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >> >> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >> Harrisburg. >> >> Can you please address him in this matter? >> >> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment
 of the city. >> >> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I >> think it is worth the effort. >> >> ;-{) !!!!! >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" >> To: "'GDG'" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >> possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.
 Preferably cavalry. But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >> side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> Hello. >> >> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on >> the GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >> Lee >> to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) >> >> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to
 occupy >> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 90 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID:
 <1327462395.40834.YahooMailNeo at web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > >Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack... >> >> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter. >> >> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and? invest >> Harrisburg. >> >> Can you please address him in this matter? >> >> I really like the guy but I don't see
 no investment of the? city. >> >> Please talk to him about this.? I have such high regard? for the man that >> I >> think it is worth the effort. >> >> ;-{)? !!!!! >> >> A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >> >> Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom? Barrett" >> To: "'GDG'"? >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26? PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months? ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,? being in >> possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was? using Harrisburg >> the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to? have the AOP >> rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force
 into Harrisburg was a good idea.? Preferably cavalry. >> But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving? force trapped on the East >> side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the? AOP home with its tail >> between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,? Buffalo, Syracuse or >> wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far,? but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned? the warehouses, and waited for >> the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the? West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> Hello. >> >> You are? correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on >> the? GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that? grandiosize >> Lee >> to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even? though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >> it.) >> >>
 There was? never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >> Harrisburg. But,? as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal? WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the? length was getting? onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 91 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:34:56 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To:
 gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1184a.5d2a2000.3c50d260 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I HAVE got to learn how my computer works. My fingers need only whisp past the keyboard and it wanders off. I am sorry. Anyway George, I am in the GDG to learn- I'll fight & argue anytime but show me I am wrong and I'll admit it. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:30:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, CWMHTours at aol.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: You are a good man, my friend George. I have tuff standards for respect. Please... tell me I am full of crap any time.... It's good for me when it comes from people,who explain to me me why. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, georgeconnell at me.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Peter, I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put
 down the shovel and look them up! Regards, George On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack... > > I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. > > He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest > Harrisburg. > > Can you please address him in this matter? > > I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. > > Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I > think it is worth the effort. > > ;-{) !!!!! > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Barrett" > To: "'GDG'" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > When we discussed this in some detail a couple of
 months ago, I was left > with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in > possession > of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the > way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing > wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. > > Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But > it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East > side > of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between > its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) > > Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" > Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the > inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. > > Regards, > > TB > > Hello. > > You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled > on
 > the GDG. > > There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize > Lee > to an unsubstainable level. > > Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great > Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) > > There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy > Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). > > Regards, > > Jack > > BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. > > > > > I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. > > > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 92 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:39:53 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <11a4b.7497fa6c.3c50d389 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jeff! Don't let him know that! Do you know what kind of trouble we are going to have in here once he figgers that out? SSSSHHHH Don't say anything. Maybe he won't notice. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:33:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlb4tlb at yahoo.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows
 almost flat out N-S Namaste Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > >Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack... >> >> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >> >> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >> Harrisburg. >> >> Can you please address him in this matter? >> >> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >> >> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >> I >> think it is worth the effort. >> >> ;-{) !!!!! >> >> A
 Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom Barrett" >> To: "'GDG'" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >> possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >> the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >> rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. >> But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >> side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd
 sent the AOP home with its tail >> between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >> wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for >> the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> Hello. >> >> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on >> the GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >> Lee >> to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >> it.) >> >> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought
 that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 93 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:42:02 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID:
 <803D5989C6234F26AD65F153F1C606E5 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack, > > First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. George, here is what Faulkner said. Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart attacks. And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way. You overreact. For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and
 Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago. - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust > > Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
 > support. I am not sure what this is all about. > > Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long > discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. I think this is the same thing. >On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to >cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was >planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army >over the river is more than a raid. Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was never going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped. Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail. Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek line, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural barrier. > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and
 to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west of it? Breezewood? Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans there. George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize. The only patronizing around here is between the brothers. BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1. THAT is patronizing. Regards, Jack What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway? " > >> Hello. >> >> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on the GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >> Lee to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as
 doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >> it.) >> >> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 94 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:44:06 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID:
 <9308F25064DA424EAAEA1806479DDE91 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf? Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Burk" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S Namaste Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > >Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>
 Jack... >> >> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >> >> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >> Harrisburg. >> >> Can you please address him in this matter? >> >> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >> >> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >> I >> think it is worth the effort. >> >> ;-{) !!!!! >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom Barrett" >> To: "'GDG'" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >>
 possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >> the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >> rushing >> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. >> But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >> side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >> between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >> wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for >> the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> Hello. >> >> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on >> the GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner
 in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >> Lee >> to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >> it.) >> >> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > >
 >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 95 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:48:29 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <11e75.2571dc72.3c50d58d at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" No fool.... Once again you have it all wrong. It flows from the Gulf northwards up the Mississippi north to the Susq R where it also starts flowing north. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the
 gulf? Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Burk" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S Namaste Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > >Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack... >> >> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >> >> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >> Harrisburg. >> >> Can you
 please address him in this matter? >> >> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >> >> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >> I >> think it is worth the effort. >> >> ;-{) !!!!! >> >> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >> Peter >> >> >> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tom Barrett" >> To: "'GDG'" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >> possession >> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >> the >> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >> rushing >> wildly after him
 (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >> >> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. >> But >> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >> side >> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >> between >> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >> wherever.) >> >> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for >> the >> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >> >> Regards, >> >> TB >> >> Hello. >> >> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >> on >> the GDG. >> >> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >> Lee >> to an unsubstainable level. >> >> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >> Emancipator, even though that is
 an unrealistic perception and I know >> it.) >> >> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >> >> Regards, >> >> Jack >> >> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >> >> >> >> >> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m > -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
 -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 96 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:55:13 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <20567FE5DD85493FBB1731788B3C755A at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Don't read this in the morning. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:48 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > No fool.... Once again you have it all wrong. It flows from the Gulf > northwards up the Mississippi north to the Susq R where it also starts > flowing north. > > A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, > Peter > > > In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29
 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf? > Regards, > > Jack > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Burk" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out > N-S > > > Namaste > > Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. >> >>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. >> >>Regards, >> >>Jack >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >>>
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack... >>> >>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >>> >>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >>> Harrisburg. >>> >>> Can you please address him in this matter? >>> >>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >>> >>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >>> I >>> think it is worth the effort. >>> >>> ;-{) !!!!! >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom Barrett" >>> To: "'GDG'" >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was >>> left >>>
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >>> possession >>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >>> the >>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >>> rushing >>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >>> >>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. >>> But >>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the >>> East >>> side >>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >>> between >>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >>> wherever.) >>> >>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have >>> "sacked" >>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for >>> the >>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> TB >>> >>> Hello. >>> >>> You are correct, we have
 discussed this before. But no issues are > settled >>> on >>> the GDG. >>> >>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that >>> grandiosize >>> Lee >>> to an unsubstainable level. >>> >>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the > Great >>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >>> it.) >>> >>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jack >>> >>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co > m >> -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 97 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:23 -0800 (PST) From: William
 Richardson To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1327466183.4761.YahooMailNeo at web114603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From:?Jeff Burk To:?GDG ? Sent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM Subject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. ?:) ? Respectfully, ? ? ?William Richardson ? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of
 finger pointing and avenues of denial.? ------------------------------ Message: 98 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:38:19 -0500 (EST) From: atmackeyjr at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <8CEA9324BB6ADE8-AF4-40F9 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Some interesting points: Jackson had family who lived in the area and had visited the Harrisburg area prior to the war. He was familiar with the area and with the Susquehanna. One can be forgiven for wondering what kinds of discussions the two had in the winter of '62-'63 and in the weeks prior to Chancellorsville regarding the possibility of capturing Pennsylvania's capital city. Best Regards, Al Mackey -----Original Message----- From: George Connell georgeconnell at mac To: GDG Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: eter, Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: ?
 During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond ith his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told im that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad ridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). ee also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of he Susquehanna during this campaign. ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg n three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 7, pt.3. p.914 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316. ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich ohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the usquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the
 railroad between arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose his objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to he Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around arlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but ill go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg obody Knows, pp 110-111. ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. e changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony icastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, /27/6 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait or Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a ecture to the
 Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets epetitious. You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is oubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the usquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. Regards, George 6?11'56"N 81?48'19W" ------------------------------ Message: 99 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:55:32 -0500 (EST) From: atmackeyjr at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <8CEA934B34C683E-AF4-41B7 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I pay local taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the Susquehanna River. There must be some reason they don't call it the South Shore Tax Bureau. : ) Best Regards, Al Mackey -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Burk To: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012
 10:33 pm Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S Namaste eff Burk ------------------------------ Message: 100 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:10:59 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <014F4A529E9D4EE289FEA7D567683487 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point
 is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the locale. They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. So the Susquehanna flows east to west. Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head
 east. This is not to patronize anyone. Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? regards, jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > > From: Jeff Burk > To: GDG > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S > > > Namaste > > Jeff Burk > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with > everything else. Surely ole Jack can't
 be wrong. :) > > Respectfully, > > William Richardson > Mount Gilead, North Carolina > > > Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of > America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four > long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of > denial. > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 101 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:12:20 -0600 From: "Jack Lawrence" To: "GDG" Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <309E9FA57D4E480BB9E2E5B9B1ED6042 at jackPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Ignorance? Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:55 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > I pay local
 taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the > Susquehanna River. There must be some reason they don't call it the South > Shore Tax Bureau. : ) > > Best Regards, > Al Mackey > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Burk > To: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com > Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm > Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S > > Namaste > > eff Burk > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com > -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 102 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1327468543.61054.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE
 course towards the bay when it hits central Pa.?, but never does it take a east course. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf? >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Burk" >To: "GDG" >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S > > >Namaste > >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. >> >>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while
 Lee looked at it. >> >>Regards, >> >>Jack >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack... >>> >>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >>> >>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >>> Harrisburg. >>> >>> Can you please address him in this matter? >>> >>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >>> >>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >>> I >>> think it is worth the effort. >>> >>> ;-{)? !!!!! >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom Barrett" >>> To: "'GDG'" >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26
 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >>> possession >>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >>> the >>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >>> rushing >>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >>> >>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.? Preferably cavalry. >>> But >>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >>> side >>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >>> between >>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >>> wherever.) >>> >>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses,
 and waited for >>> the >>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> TB >>> >>> Hello. >>> >>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >>> on >>> the GDG. >>> >>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >>> Lee >>> to an unsubstainable level. >>> >>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >>> it.) >>> >>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jack >>> >>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to
 unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >> -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >-to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 103 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:23:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID:
 <1327469014.86783.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are wrong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow below Harrisburg. ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM >Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. >So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. >It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed
 (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the locale. >They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. >I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. >No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. >A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. > >So the Susquehanna flows east to west. > >Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. > >And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game
 at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east. >This is not to patronize anyone. >Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? > >regards, > >jack >----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" >To: "GDG" >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> >> From: Jeff Burk >> To: GDG >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S >> >> >> Namaste >> >> Jeff Burk >> >>
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :) >> >> Respectfully, >> >> William Richardson >> Mount Gilead, North Carolina >> >> >> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > >
 ------------------------------ Message: 104 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:57 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <1ufbn27yyo290msyfh6mdb40.1327445937319 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks. I meant was it used to cool the plant. Regards, Jack Jeff Burk wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer is that on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant. > > >?Namaste >? >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: John Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island? >>Regards, >>Jack >> >>Jeff Burk wrote: >> >>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 >>>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. >>> >>> >>>?Namaste >>>? >>>Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>>________________________________ >>>>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very >>>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >>>> >>>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >>>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river.? >>>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >>>>capital and RR center. >>>> >>>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. >>>> >>>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>Peter? >>>> >>>> >>>>In a message
 dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >>>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >>>> >>>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to >>>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the >>>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from >>>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV >>>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >>>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges >>>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until >>>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later >>>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily >>>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge >>>>believed to be the longest such bridge
 in the world at? the time and the flames >>>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. >>>> >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>>Margaret >>>> >>>>----- Original? Message ----- >>>>From: "Tom" >>>>To: "GDG"? >>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? >>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>>>> And >>>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >>>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over >>>>without a >>>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire >>>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. >>>>Regards, Tom B.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >>>> >>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>Dave, >>>> >>>>Respectfully Sir,
 >>>> >>>>I think we disagree,? sir. >>>> >>>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying >>>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >>>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >>>>Gtysbg, >>>>& Monocacy. >>>> >>>>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>>>balanced? combination. >>>> >>>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. >>>> >>>>The Hammer was Jackson. >>>> >>>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >>>> >>>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >>>>without a >>>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
 >>>> >>>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. >>>> >>>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >>>>Everything else was a subset. >>>> >>>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >>>>Peter? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>? -to unsubscribe >>>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>? -to unsubscribe >>>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >>>> >>>> >>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
 >>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 105 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:34:40 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <2ildh0qvg38fpce21r3q3ih4.1327469680470 at email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 And it goes east Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the course of the Susquehanna? Regards, Jack Jeff Burk wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are wrong.? Here is a map showing the path
 of the river please show me a e-w flow below Harrisburg. >? >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png > >?Namaste >? >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM >>Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. >>So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. >>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the
 locale. >>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. >>I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. >>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. >>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. >> >>So the Susquehanna flows east to west. >> >>Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. >> >>And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east. >>This is not to patronize anyone. >>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you
 think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? >> >>regards, >> >>jack >>----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" >>To: "GDG" >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Burk >>> To: GDG >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :) >>> >>>
 Respectfully, >>> >>> William Richardson >>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina >>> >>> >>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 106 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:03:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Richardson To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna
 River Message-ID: <1327475031.86182.YahooMailNeo at web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ?From: Jack Lawrence To: GDG Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. Regards, Jack? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.? Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in Otsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border and across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake Bay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.?? ?It runs mostly North
 & South....Not East to West Jack.? Thank you and goodnight.... ? Respectfully, ? ? ?William Richardson ? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.? ------------------------------ Message: 107 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:11:22 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The watershed I'd east. Regards Jack William Richardson wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >?From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. > >Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it. > >Regards, > >Jack? >
 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >According to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.? > >Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in Otsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border and across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake Bay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.?? > >?It runs mostly North & South....Not East to West Jack.? > >Thank you and goodnight.... >? >Respectfully, > >? ? ?William Richardson >? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina > > >Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
 >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 108 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <18c43.50fc9c3.3c514a8b at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Jeff Burk- My friend- Who are you? Do you live in Penn? I am in DC. Why don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and chili? We'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam. It is 7AM and I woke up an hour ago worrying about the the dam full of silt would burst and poison the Chesapeake. Not the first time I couldn't sleep worrying about the Conowingo. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlb4tlb at yahoo.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: No Jack it does not. It does take a SSE
 course towards the bay when it hits central Pa. , but never does it take a east course. Namaste Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf? >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Burk" >To: "GDG" >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S > > >Namaste > >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west. >> >>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee
 looked at it. >> >>Regards, >> >>Jack >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack... >>> >>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter. >>> >>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest >>> Harrisburg. >>> >>> Can you please address him in this matter? >>> >>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city. >>> >>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that >>> I >>> think it is worth the effort. >>> >>> ;-{) !!!!! >>> >>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tom Barrett" >>> To: "'GDG'" >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
 >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left >>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >>> possession >>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg >>> the >>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP >>> rushing >>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. >>> >>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. >>> But >>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East >>> side >>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >>> between >>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or >>> wherever.) >>> >>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" >>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and
 waited for >>> the >>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> TB >>> >>> Hello. >>> >>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled >>> on >>> the GDG. >>> >>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize >>> Lee >>> to an unsubstainable level. >>> >>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great >>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know >>> it.) >>> >>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jack >>> >>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe
 >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>> -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.c om >> -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m >-to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 109
 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:08:38 -0500 (EST) From: CWMHTours at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <18c7b.3e81a5f3.3c514ac6 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" YES! A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter In a message dated 1/25/2012 1:08:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: And it goes east Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the course of the Susquehanna? Regards, Jack Jeff Burk wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say. But you are wrong. Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow below Harrisburg. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png > > Namaste > >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack Lawrence >>To: GDG >>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM >>Subject: GDG- Red River
 and ISusquehanna River >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. >>So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. >>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the locale. >>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. >>I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis
 until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. >>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. >>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. >> >>So the Susquehanna flows east to west. >> >>Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. >> >>And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east. >>This is not to patronize anyone. >>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? >> >>regards, >> >>jack >>----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" >>To: "GDG" >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM >>Subject:
 Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff Burk >>> To: GDG >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S >>> >>> >>> Namaste >>> >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :) >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> >>> William Richardson >>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina >>> >>> >>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger
 pointing and avenues of denial. >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.c om -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co m -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 110 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:42:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn To: John Gross Gdg Subject: GDG- Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <645747031.12799772.1327498923303.JavaMail.app at ela4-bed79.prod>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 LinkedIn ------------ Ron Chaplin requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ John Gross, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Ron Accept invitation from Ron Chaplin http://www.linkedin.com/e/cmimsm-gxuel0rl-48/q-RiaR17_P2jQ7NH-eBVUPYP-gCEstUgI9/blk/I175951119_60/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYMdBYVcj4NdjARdP59bSFJkSN9kQxJbPkTe3kNd3cRdzkLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=false&tok=26Lgy_w3aSCl41 View profile of Ron Chaplin http://www.linkedin.com/e/cmimsm-gxuel0rl-48/vpn/32510342/woSh/NAME_BASED/?hs=false&tok=32NC-G7qSSCl41 ------------------------------------------ -- (c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation ------------------------------ Message: 111 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:59:35 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E41E at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type:
 text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Jeff. -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:15 PM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Hi Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it was built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in 1913. ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ > From: Andy Mills >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jeff: > >Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below >City Island across from the city? > >Thanks, > >-----Original Message----- >From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com >[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM >To: GDG >Subject: Re:
 GDG- Inevitable defeat > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. > > >?Namaste >? >Jeff Burk > > >>________________________________ >>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but >>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky. >> >>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an >>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? river. >>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state >>capital and RR center. >> >>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there. >> >>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter >> >> >>In a message
 dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes: >> >>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using >>it to cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg >>is on the east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack >>the city from both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? >>destruction, the ANV generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. >>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but >>bridges were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't >>another until Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? >>be rebuilt later but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of >>precision? wasn't easily obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge >>was a wood &? stone covered bridge believed to be the longest such >>bridge in the world at? the time
 and the flames that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. >> >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Margaret >> >>----- Original? Message ----- >>From: "Tom" >>To: "GDG"? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>>> And >>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing >>over without a whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was >>destroyed, by fire (not the granite supports? of course), by Union >>militia. >>Regards, Tom B. >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? >>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM >>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? >>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat >> >>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>Dave, >> >>Respectfully Sir, >> >>I think we disagree,? sir. >> >>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
 >>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as >>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, >>Gtysbg, >>& Monocacy. >> >>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a >>balanced? combination. >> >>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. >> >>The Hammer was Jackson. >> >>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. >> >>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about >>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And >>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big >>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over >>without a >>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? >> >>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces >>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. >> >>The purpose of
 going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. >>Everything else was a subset. >> >>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, >>Peter? >> >> >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for
 Archives > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 112 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:41 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to say Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We should all just give up now! Regards, George On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > And it goes east > > Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the course of the Susquehanna? > Regards, > Jack > > Jeff Burk wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say. But you are wrong. Here is
 a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow below Harrisburg. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png >> >> Namaste >> >> Jeff Burk >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Jack Lawrence >>> To: GDG >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM >>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River >>> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. >>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. >>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are
 around) were more than happy to talk about the locale. >>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. >>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. >>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. >>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. >>> >>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west. >>> >>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. >>> >>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east. >>> This is not to
 patronize anyone. >>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> jack >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" >>> To: "GDG" >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>> >>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jeff Burk >>>> To: GDG >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S >>>> >>>> >>>> Namaste >>>> >>>> Jeff Burk >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> No, now leave Jack
 alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :) >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> >>>> William Richardson >>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina >>>> >>>> >>>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> >>> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 113 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:13 +0000 (GMT) From: cameron2 at optimum.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii << If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position
 to provide meaningful support to one another. >> Which is quite a few caveats, and a lot of stuff he didn't have, and wasn't likely to get. And if he does cross the Susquehanna, getting back over now involves the far shore still being hostile territory, not VA. Still, I do think he intended to cross a major force, if possible. I wonder, though, if his preference wouldn't have been to continue to maneuver, and maybe fight against any isolated Union force he might encounter, rather than risk a general engagement under such circumstances. Although I can't say I've ever devoted much thought to the matter, since it never did happen. Just as a thought, while it wouldn't have been something he could have anticipated at the time, the post-battle rains which made crossing back into VA so difficult could have created an extremely critical situation for Lee if he need to recross the Susquehanna in a hurry after a reverse on the eastern side of the river and had no
 bridges available. Jim Cameron ------------------------------ Message: 114 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:54:10 +0000 (GMT) From: cameron2 at optimum.net To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii << Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: So what's wrong with an Italian captain? If you follow him closely you'll be the 2nd person off the boat when it starts to sink. Nuttin wrong with that. ;-{) Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but I hope it will make people leave me alone. A lot of Libertarians ask too many questions. A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, Peter >> Please SNIP when replying to another post, and if possible select the option in your e-mail program NOT to include the previous post in your reply. These lengthy replies filled with previous posts end up generating needless digests, for those members who participate that way. This is not directed just at you, by the way, but to
 a number of members who should know better by now. And it's becoming more important what with more and more people participating Thanks, Jim Cameron ------------------------------ Message: 115 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:15 -0500 From: Bob Coffman To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <4F20180F.1080607 at ohio.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Tom B, I'm also very grateful! More stuff to read! - Bob On 1/24/2012 7:24 PM, Tom wrote: > Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click > on it - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - > they are priceless ------------------------------ Message: 116 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:38 -0800 (PST) From: Nancy Householder To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <1327503578.60823.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jack- Actually HACC does offer
 those classes for potential Licensed Battlefield Guides, but only in the year in which the test will be offered.? They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from August thru Nov. and the test was in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test, missed the cut off score by 12 points. Took 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not sure about, and took the test in Dec. 165 people took the test in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18.? I am still waiting to give my oral test sometime this year. They have not announce when the next test will be given. Nancy Householder Westminster, MD ________________________________ From: Jack Lawrence To: GDG Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the day after the battle. The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and
 there has been a partnership of sorts ever since. Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, officially sanctioned, to run free across the property. The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally good. They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg. In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired infantry officer with a degree in history. But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the minituae of the field. Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy. Regards, Jack 9 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if
 it is not. > > At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. > > Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? > > It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). > > Thanks, >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 117 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: Nancy Householder To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <1327504465.71195.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour of the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the battlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and 15 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the end. The time frame starts at the Visitors
 Center and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you can explain the battle in the time frame of an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to personalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG will pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include something about each of those states in your tour. The reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have to show that you can personalize the tour for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for. A lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very well. For a two hour time frame, you need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the knowledge to be able to answer questions that people might ask. Nancy Householder ?future LBG ________________________________ From: Jack Lawrence To: GDG Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour
 Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > <> > > As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed. > > Jim Cameron > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/
 for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 118 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:35:04 -0600 From: Dennis Lawrence To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: GDG- Heads-Up - Guide Exam Message-ID: <20120125073511.D8806CC3 at dm0207.mta.everyone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Hi, I am forwarding the following information from Fred Hawthorne. Take Care Dennis >I wanted to give you a "heads-up" that the park is 99.5% sure that they >WILL be giving the Gettysburg guide exam this year after all. It is >tentatively scheduled for Saturday, December 1, 2012. Previously they had >announced that another exam would not be held until "2013 at the >earliest." That has now changed. > >In the past Harrisburg Area Community College has run a series of >guide-led classes leading up to the
 exam. Since the demise of HACC's >Continuing Education department the future of those classes was up in the >air. The ALBG was the original sponsor of those programs before turning >them over to HACC many, many years ago when I was still President of the >group. We recently decided to take the program back and are busily >working on lining up facilities and instructors to run the guide test-prep >program starting this August. Precise details will be posted on the ALBG >website at some point before the end of the month. > >If you know any members of your Gettysburg Discussion Group who have a >burning desire to become guides here this information may be of value to >them so please feel free to pass it on. Of course they would need to >contact Guide Supervisor Clyde Bell at the park (1195 Baltimore Pike, >Gettysburg, PA 17325) to make certain their name gets put on the list. > > > >Regards, > >Fred Hawthorne ------------------------------ Message: 119
 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:47:26 -0500 From: Dave Glorioso To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <619B06A7-474E-4C0A-B63E-7694504921EC at zbzoom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What is timeframe during which classes are given by HAAC? How is it structured? Thx Also wanna thank George for sharing his notes A scholar and a gentleman! Dave Sent from my iPhone On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:59 AM, Nancy Householder wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > Jack- Actually HACC does offer those classes for potential Licensed Battlefield Guides, but only in the year in > which the test will be offered. They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from August thru Nov. and the test > was in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test, missed the cut off score by 12 points. > Took 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not sure about, and took the test in Dec. > 165 people took the test
 in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18. I am still waiting to give my oral test sometime > this year. They have not announce when the next test will be given. > > > Nancy Householder > Westminster, MD > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jack Lawrence > To: GDG > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the day after the battle. > The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a partnership of sorts ever since. > Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, officially sanctioned, to run free across the property. > > The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally good. > They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg. > > In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired infantry officer
 with a degree in history. > > But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the minituae of the field. > > Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy. > > Regards, > > Jack > > > > > > 9 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM > Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not. >> >> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields. >> >> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield
 Tour Guides one could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which one could hire a guide? >> >> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes sense). >> >> Thanks, >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ------------------------------ Message: 120 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:52:27 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E5EC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Nancy: I can see how important it is to stay in the timeframe. When I take friends to Gettysburg (and by no means do I have even an ounce of the knowledge of the tour guides), I find myself talking for two hours and we haven't even left McPherson's Ridge. I think it would take a lot of hard work to come up with a method to do this and be successful. Out of curiosity: if you pass the written test and are on the list for the oral exam and fail the oral part, do you have to start over with the written test again, or can you put your
 name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and work on getting a better delivery and retake that part only? Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Householder Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:14 AM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour of the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the battlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and 15 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the end. The time frame starts at the Visitors Center and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you can explain the battle in the time frame of an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to personalize the tour.
 Clyde and the LBG will pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include something about each of those states in your tour. The reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have to show that you can personalize the tour for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for. A lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very well. For a two hour time frame, you need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the knowledge to be able to answer questions that people might ask. Nancy Householder ?future LBG ________________________________ From: Jack Lawrence To: GDG Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being fully accredited. I
 understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. Regards, Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "GDG" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > < not unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system > and, IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield > guide was O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and > began giving tours when he was about fifteen. The current guide > service was started a little more than five years ago.? >> > > As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed. > > Jim Cameron >
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arth > es.com? -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 121 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:08:01 -0500 (EST) From: AWard61890 at aol.com To: gettysburg at arthes.com Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: <10b04.1dbc7efe.3c5182e1 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 1/25/2012 10:55:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, amills at jplcreative.com writes: if you pass the written test and are on the list for the oral exam and fail the oral part, do you have to start over
 with the written test again, or can you put your name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and work on getting a better delivery and retake that part only? You must go thru the entire process again, including passing the written exam. Andy Ward ------------------------------ Message: 122 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:08:12 +0000 From: Andy Mills To: GDG Subject: GDG- Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out against a large force Message-ID: <49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E614 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In reading one of the articles posted earlier ( http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/essay4.pdf ), on page 144, Halleck is quoted as to have said: "Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out against a large force. They must depend for their security very much upon the co-operation of your army" It has been said in this forum that
 Washington was a nearly impenetrable fortress and the ANV could never actually capture the city. But this quote makes it seem that he feared very much for the safety of DC and I have to believe Lincoln would also feel this way, or Halleck wouldn't be able to send such telegrams to the army. Did they see a reality that is we don't see today? Were the forces that defending Washington DC impressive on paper, but troops to which you couldn't rely on when the fighting got heated? In 1863, how many troops defended the capitol and were they mostly green troops with short enlistments? What makes us today claim DC was unable to be taken when the military men of the time thought the exact opposite? I know there are a lot of questions, but I am trying to figure out the differences in beliefs and if this is all with the hindsight of history to know Lee / ANV / Confederacy never had the capabilities the Union / US high command believed they were capable of. Thanks,
 ------------------------------ Message: 123 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:15:45 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: <6B6A6B1A-8716-4DF7-B44F-66D834C3242F at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jack, I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from memory. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack, >> >> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. > George, here is what Faulkner said. > Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart attacks. > And I tempered
 it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way. > You overreact. > > For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a
 fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago. > > - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust > > >> >> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. > > I am not sure what this is all about. > > >> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. > > I think this is the same thing. > > >> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over the river is more than a raid. > > Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to
 hapen anyway. Lee was never going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped. > Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail. > > Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek line, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural barrier. > > > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west of it? Breezewood? > > Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans there. > > George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would
 patronize. > The only patronizing around here is between the brothers. > BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1. > THAT is patronizing. > > Regards, > Jack > > What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway? > > " >> >>> Hello. >>> >>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on the GDG. >>> >>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. >>> >>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) >>> >>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jack >>> >>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 124 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:05 -0600 From: Dennis Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: <20120125081912.D88EEA8B at dm0201.mta.everyone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite > it from memory. Hello, Along with the Gettysburg address? Take Care Dennis >>>>>>>>> You can't just pick and choose which laws to
 follow. Sure I'd like to tape a baseball game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, but that's just not the way it works. Hank Hill ------------------------------ Message: 125 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:24:35 -0800 From: "Robert G Pielke" To: "'GDG'" Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: <000301ccdb7d$d41fa3a0$7c5eeae0$@ca.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I used the Faulkner quote as the epigraph of my novel A New Birth of Freedom: The Visitor -- wherein there was "still time for it not to happen." [Altered Dimensions Press -- for anyone interested] "Northerners" know the quote as well.... Bob Pielke -----Original Message----- From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of George Connell Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:16 AM To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: Jack, I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't
 get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from memory. Regards, George 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" > > To: "GDG" > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> Jack, >> >> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. > George, here is what Faulkner said. > Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart attacks. > And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way. > You overreact. > > For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are
 laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago. > > - William Faulkner,
 Intruder in the Dust > > >> >> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. > > I am not sure what this is all about. > > >> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. > > I think this is the same thing. > > >> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over the river is more than a raid. > > Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was never going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped. > Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail. > > Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek line, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural
 barrier. > > > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west of it? Breezewood? > > Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans there. > > George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize. > The only patronizing around here is between the brothers. > BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1. > THAT is patronizing. > > Regards, > Jack > > What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway? > > " >> >>> Hello. >>> >>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
 settled on the GDG. >>> >>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. >>> >>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the >>> Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and >>> I know it.) >>> >>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jack >>> >>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_ar >>> thes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_art >> hes.com -to unsubscribe >>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > > ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arth > es.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 126 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:29:30 -0500 From: George Connell To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Touch? ! Regards, George On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:19, Dennis Lawrence wrote: > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: > >> Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from memory. > Hello, > > Along with the Gettysburg address? > > Take Care > > Dennis > > > >>>>>>>>> > You can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. Sure I'd like to tape a baseball game
 without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, but that's just not the way it works. Hank Hill ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe > http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 127 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:16:55 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks nancy. I have learned more from this discussion about guides then I have in 20 years of going to gettysburg. Regards, Jack Nancy Householder wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour of the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the > >Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the battlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and >15 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT,
 and the Angle at the end. The time frame starts at the Visitors >Center and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you can explain the battle in the time frame of >an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to personalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG >will pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include something about each of those states in your tour. >The reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have to show that you can personalize the tour > >for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for. > > >A lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very well. For a two hour time frame, >you need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the knowledge to be able to answer >questions that people might ask. > >Nancy Householder >?future LBG > > > >________________________________ > From: Jack
 Lawrence >To: GDG >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your style. > >Regards, > >Jack >----- Original Message ----- From: >To: "GDG" >Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM >Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides > > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> <> >> >> As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed. >> >> Jim Cameron >>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> > > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 128 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:25:05 -0600 From: John Lawrence To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 And the pledge of allegiance. Still provides more service members than any other area. Regards, Jack George Connell wrote: >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jack, > >I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from memory. >
 >Regards, > >George >26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" > >On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" >> To: "GDG" >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM >> Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River >> >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> Jack, >>> >>> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing. >> George, here is what Faulkner said. >> Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart attacks. >> And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way. >> You overreact. >> >> For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the
 furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago. >> >> - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust >> >> >>> >>>
 Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. >> >> I am not sure what this is all about. >> > >>> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. >> >> I think this is the same thing. >> >> >>> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over the river is more than a raid. >> >> Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was never going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped. >> Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail. >> >> Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek line, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural barrier. >> >> > I
 speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west of it? Breezewood? >> >> Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans there. >> >> George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize. >> The only patronizing around here is between the brothers. >> BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1. >> THAT is patronizing. >> >> Regards, >> Jack >> >> What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway? >> >> " >>> >>>> Hello. >>>> >>>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
 settled on the GDG. >>>> >>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee to an unsubstainable level. >>>> >>>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.) >>>> >>>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked). >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jack >>>> >>>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> >> >> >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives ------------------------------ Message: 129 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1327512696.69846.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 right you are you are George,? Its real sad when you show a person a map proving your point and still said person doesn't give up.? ? ? ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ >From: George Connell >To: GDG >Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:20 AM >Subject: Re: GDG- Red
 River and ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to say Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We should all just give up now! > >Regards, > >George > >On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence wrote: > >> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >> And it goes east >> >> Am I.? The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the course of the Susquehanna? >> Regards, >> Jack >> >> Jeff Burk wrote: >> >>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are wrong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow below Harrisburg. >>>? >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png >>> >>>? Namaste >>>? >>> Jeff Burk >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Jack Lawrence >>>> To: GDG >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012
 12:10 AM >>>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference room. >>>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back and sit at a picknik table. >>>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the locale. >>>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to north river in the country. >>>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along Waldens Ridge to
 Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also. >>>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west. >>>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me they were correct. >>>> >>>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west. >>>> >>>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank. >>>> >>>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east. >>>> This is not to patronize anyone. >>>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 miles away from home? >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> jack >>>> ----- Original Message
 ----- From: "William Richardson" >>>> To: "GDG" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>>> >>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Jeff Burk >>>>> To: GDG >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Namaste >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Burk >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :) >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> >>>>> William Richardson >>>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pro-Excuser: People who
 can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. >>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? -to unsubscribe >>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives >
 >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ Message: 130 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Burk To: GDG Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River Message-ID: <1327512847.62848.YahooMailNeo at web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I live in Lancaster Pa.?? ? ?Thank you for your most kind offer concerning Lincoln, but I will be caving in WV that week end ?Namaste ? Jeff Burk >________________________________ >From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" >To: gettysburg at arthes.com >Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:07 AM >Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River > >Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >Jeff Burk- > >My friend- > >Who are you? > >Do you live in Penn?? I am in DC. > >Why don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and? chili? > >We'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam.?
 It is 7AM? and I? woke up an >hour ago worrying about the the dam full? of silt would burst and poison the >Chesapeake.? Not the first time I? couldn't sleep worrying about the >Conowingo. > >A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist, >Peter? > > >In a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? >jlb4tlb at yahoo.com writes: > >Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE? course towards the bay when it >hits central Pa. , but never does it take? a east course. > > >Namaste > >Jeff? Burk > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jack? Lawrence >>To: GDG? >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44? PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >>? >>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>That means the Susquehanna flows south from? harrisburg to the gulf? >>Regards, >> >>Jack >>-----? Original Message ----- >>From: "Jeff Burk"? >>To: "GDG"? >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33? PM >>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River >> >>
 >>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes: >>Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the? Sus, flows almost flat out? >N-S >> >> >>Namaste >> >>Jeff? Burk >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>? From: Jack Lawrence >>>To: GDG? >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51? PM >>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River >>> >>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: >>>I? ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and? west. >>> >>>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee? looked at? it. >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Jack >>>-----? Original Message ----- >>>From:? >>>To:? >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33? PM >>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River >>> >>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>> Jack... >>>> >>>> I am? having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter. >>>> >>>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps? east of the Susq R and invest >>>>? Harrisburg. >>>> >>>> Can you please address him in this? matter? >>>> >>>> I
 really like the guy but I don't see? no investment of the city. >>>> >>>> Please talk to him? about this. I have such high regard for the man that >>>>? I >>>> think it is worth the? effort. >>>> >>>> ;-{)? ? !!!!! >>>> >>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti? Unionist, >>>>? Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated? 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>>? jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes: >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG? Member Contributes: >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message? ----- >>>> From: "Tom Barrett"? >>>> To: "'GDG'"? >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012? 4:26 PM >>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River >>>> >>>> >>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: >>>> >>>> When we discussed this in some? detail a couple of months ago, I was >left >>>> with the impression? that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in >>>>? possession >>>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps,? was using Harrisburg >>>> the >>>> way a matador uses a? red cape. His real intent was to
 have the AOP >>>>? rushing >>>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal. >>>> >>>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was? a good idea.? Preferably cavalry. >>>>? But >>>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force? trapped on the East >>>> side >>>> of the Susquehanna? until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail >>>>? between >>>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo,? Syracuse or >>>> wherever.) >>>> >>>> Of? course, things never got that far, but I think he would have? >"sacked" >>>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the? warehouses, and waited for >>>> the >>>> inevitable? reaction- but waited on the West side of the? river. >>>> >>>>? Regards, >>>> >>>> TB >>>> >>>>? Hello. >>>> >>>> You are correct, we have discussed this? before. But no issues are >settled >>>> on >>>> the? GDG. >>>> >>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in? many Lee admirers that >grandiosize >>>> Lee >>>> to an?
 unsubstainable level. >>>> >>>> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the >Great >>>>? Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I? know >>>> it.) >>>> >>>> There was never any? intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy >>>> Harrisburg.? But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked). >>>> >>>>? Regards, >>>> >>>> Jack >>>> >>>>? BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail? lines. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>? I have cut the thread as the length was getting? onerous. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>? >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>? -to unsubscribe >>>>? http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >>>> >>>> >>>>? >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >>>>? -to unsubscribe >>>>? http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >>>> >>> >>> >>>
 >>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.c >om? >>> -to? unsubscribe >>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >>> >>> >>> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >m? >>-to? unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >> >>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co >m? -to unsubscribe >>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives >> >> >>? ? >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com >? -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives > >----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe >http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives > > > ------------------------------ You may unsubscribe at
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