GDG- -Battlefield Tour Guides

sherri watts sherri410 at aol.com
Wed Jan 25 13:03:09 CST 2012


I truly resent the fact that Peter has to make so many negative comments about the tourists or customers that come to Gettysburg. Also as a Licensed Battlefield Guide Candidate I also resent the way he makes it sound about Gettysburg guides. I have worked my butt off to get to this point and know what it takes to become a guide. I have watched many friends ahead of me work hard. You have to know about the Civil War and everything Gettysburg so it's not a popularity contest. It's about having the knowledge and then showing you can put a tour together that the general public can enjoy and hopefully learn something. This isn't a college class. This is a vacation trip where you should be able to learn, enjoy and not made to feel stupid. To be honest, I hope I NEVER EVER go on a tour with you Peter and am surprised you still work at whatever you do. You seem like a miserable person who had nothing nice to say about the people who are paying you. Instead of calling them stupid, maybe you should appreciate the fact that they want to learn and yes, some want to learn more than others. People should be treated with respect and not made fun of constantly. I'm sure you have a few that may be comical but to call all tourists that is downright mean.  Again, I haven't posted here in a long time and it's because of people like you.

Sherri



-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-request <gettysburg-request at arthes.com>
To: gettysburg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 1:02 pm
Subject: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 25


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oday's Topics:
   1.   Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
  2. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
  3. Re:  Wasn't Sickles Right? (CWMHTours at aol.com)
  4. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
  5. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
  6. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
  7. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
  8. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills)
  9. Re:  Wasn't Sickles Right? (cameron2 at optimum.net)
 10. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 11. Re:  Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24 (idunc at q.com)
 12. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (cameron2 at optimum.net)
 13. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Jack Lawrence)
 14. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 15. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Dave Gillespie)
 16. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel)
 17. Re:  Inevitable defeat (George Connell)
 18. Re:  Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda. (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 19. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
 20. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 21. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com)
 22. Re:  Dave- a Second Response (John Lawrence)
 23. Re:  Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence)
 24. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence)
 25. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 26. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 27. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 28. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
 29. Re:  My Tummy! (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 30. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 31. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
 32. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
 33. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 34. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net)
 35. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
 36. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 37. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
 38. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net)
 39. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel)
 40. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 41. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
 42. Re:  Inevitable defeat (William Richardson)
 43. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
 44. Re:  ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
 45. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett)
 46. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 47. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 48. Re:  Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 49. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 50. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 51. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 52. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 53. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 54. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Margaret D. Blough)
 55. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 56. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 57. Re:  Lee & Harrisburg (George Connell)
 58. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 59. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 60. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 61. Re:  Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 62. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett)
 63. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 64. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 65. Re:  Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 66. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 67. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 68.  Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars (Jack Lawrence)
 69. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Tom)
 70. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 71. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 72. Re:  Susquehanna River (George Connell)
 73. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 74. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
 75. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
 76. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 77. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 78.  Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence)
 79. Re:  Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 80. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 81. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 82. Re:  Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence)
 83. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 84. Re:  Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 85. Re:  Susquehanna River (George Connell)
 86. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 87. Re:  Susquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 88. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 89. Re:  ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 90. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
 91. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 92. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 93. Re:  Susquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 94. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 95. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 96. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 97. Re:  ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
 98. Re:  ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com)
 99. Re:  ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com)
 100.  Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 101. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
 102. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
 103. Re:  Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
 104. Re:  Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence)
 105. Re:  Red River and ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence)
 106. Re:  ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
 107. Re:  ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence)
 108. Re:  ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 109. Re:  Red River and ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
 110.  Invitation to connect on LinkedIn (Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn)
 111. Re:  Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills)
 112. Re:  Red River and ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
 113. Re:  ISusquehanna River (cameron2 at optimum.net)
 114. Re:  Raid vs Occupation (cameron2 at optimum.net)
 115. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Bob Coffman)
 116. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder)
 117. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder)
 118.  Heads-Up - Guide Exam (Dennis Lawrence)
 119. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Dave Glorioso)
 120. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
 121. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com)
 122.  Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out
     against a large force (Andy Mills)
 123. Re:  Susquehanna River (George Connell)
 124. Re:  Susquehanna River (Dennis Lawrence)
 125. Re:  Susquehanna River (Robert G Pielke)
 126. Re:  Susquehanna River (George Connell)
 127. Re:  Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence)
 128. Re:  Susquehanna River (John Lawrence)
 129. Re:  Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
 130. Re:  ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:01:17 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <2AFD112B7BC5423DB7DF803A94E291B0 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided 
heir forces prior to the battle.
he ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already 
rapped, so what the hey.
he AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the 
umberland that was never going to happen.
hen the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in 
iecemeal.
Regards,
Jack
The south approached the war itself with a certain sense of invetiability.
I have no division.
et us cross across the river...
ell Hill he must come up.
hat man will fight us every day and every hour till the end of the war.


---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <joadx1 at netscape.net>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:19 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

 It would appear, then, that Lee was quite willing to ignore the Napoleonic 
 maxims.  At Chancellorsville, for example, he divided his army.  Jackson's 
 flanking maneuver was not overwhelming force; it was successful surprise 
 that succeeded because Lee anticipated Hooker's reaction.  Second Manassas 
 was a successful ambush of an army that didn't know where Longstreet was. 
 Pickett's Charge was hardly overwhelming force.

 In short, Lee made do with the human resources he had, which were never 
 overwhelming in numbers.  He relied on speed and surprise, and on the 
 morale of his forces.  He also relied on his knowledge of the AoP 
 commanders.  A lot of psychology was involved, but rarely, if ever, 
 overwhelming force.





 -----Original Message-----
 From: CWMHTours <CWMHTours at aol.com>
 To: gettysburg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am
 Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat


 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Tim.

 Sir,

 When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not  required, to
 remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which  are:

 1.  Always strike with overwhelming  force.....

 If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to  get a  handle on  R.E. 
 Lee.

 He was a master of those.

 ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man.  The man was  briilliant.  If you
 were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his  actions, unless 
 you
 are a dumb guy,  which fortunately we are  not.

 Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between  them. With a 1000 miles
 between them and Lee he did the right  thing.

 The fortress of Washington was  his focus.  He  needed as mny people as
 possible.  Because it was a fortress he knew that  he could never 
 successfully
 attack it.  He had to get the Northern forces  away from DC in order to
 bring overwhelming force on the  AoP.

 If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance.  And  if you can, you
 attack with overwhelming force.

 It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that  light.

 Do you like my new sign-off?  I don't know what a  neo-anti unionst is but
 I like how it sounds.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter





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------------------------------
Message: 2
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:06:23 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <737D4FCD904B49CE943EF2C84BAE5E48 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Since we are using historical metaphors for Lee, here is one for the ages.
The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him 
oy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him. For he 
ad lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his 
articular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to 
ake recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other 
and, as from a fountain continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp 
as quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in 
ourage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining 
ew force and resolution to go on with the war.
Plutarch
hich pretty much describes every one of lee's "victories"?
Lee would probaly better be forgotten than have his name epitomized as king 
yrrhus-asin Pyyrhic victory.
Regards,
Jack
 ----- Original Message ----- 
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:07 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Tim.

 Sir,

 When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not  required, to
 remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which  are:

 1.  Always strike with overwhelming  force.....

 If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to  get a  handle on  R.E. 
 Lee.

 He was a master of those.

 ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man.  The man was  briilliant.  If you
 were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his  actions, unless 
 you
 are a dumb guy,  which fortunately we are  not.

 Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between  them. With a 1000 miles
 between them and Lee he did the right  thing.

 The fortress of Washington was  his focus.  He  needed as mny people as
 possible.  Because it was a fortress he knew that  he could never 
 successfully
 attack it.  He had to get the Northern forces  away from DC in order to
 bring overwhelming force on the  AoP.

 If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance.  And  if you can, you
 attack with overwhelming force.

 It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that  light.

 Do you like my new sign-off?  I don't know what a  neo-anti unionst is but
 I like how it sounds.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter



 In a message dated 1/23/2012 11:36:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 joadx1 at netscape.net writes:




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------------------------------
Message: 3
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:06:43 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right?
essage-ID: <1626b.7d8ea01b.3c504d33 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Apparently, as I recall from Coddington,  Meade was  surprised by his 
orward movement.  Meade naturally gave consent to posting  his troops according 
to beneficial terrain.  But Meade did not give consent  to moving the whole 
II Cps a whole mile in front of the lines of the rest of  the AoP.


  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 11:13:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
n a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in  "discovering" the ANV 
lanking attack?
Granted, he didn't run into any  of Longstreet's units, but as a result of 
he actions against Wilcox's men, he  did find out that the ANV was 
ntending to move a large force to attack his  flank (which was eventually the 
ase 
ater in the day), but the manner in  which he went about it is subject to 
ebate (that he didn't discover  Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's 
rigade), but I think the final  conclusion of his (not the move), that a 
arge force of the enemy was moving  south to flank his line / ergo:  the AOP 
s a valid  conclusion.
What I would like to know though:  after "discovering"  this flank 
ovement, did he inform headquarters about this?  Was Meade  then made aware of 
 
izable force moving to his  south?
Thanks,
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-----------------------------
Message: 4
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:14:44 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <167cb.3aaf975a.3c504f14 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer  droughts but very 
ide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.

 smart and careful commander would not want to put more than  an 
xpeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the  
iver.  
arrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a  state 
apital and RR center.

hre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river  there.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
om-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the  Confederates using it to 
ross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg is on the 
ast and this would have enabled the Confederates to  attack the city from 
oth sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's  destruction, the ANV 
enerals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and  tried to save it. 
he Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the  world but bridges 
ere needed to cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another until 
arrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could  be rebuilt later 
ut, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision  wasn't easily 
btained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &  stone covered bridge 
elieved to be the longest such bridge in the world at  the time and the flames 
hat destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite  supports. 

egards, 

argaret 
----- Original  Message -----
rom: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
o: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM  
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
>> And 
n fact, if you think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of big 
ranite blocks. Now just how are you going to  knock the darn thing over 
ithout a 
hole lot of valuable time and  trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
not the granite supports  of course), by Union militia. 
egards, Tom B.  


-----Original Message----- 
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com  
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
o: gettysburg at arthes.com  
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
ave, 
Respectfully Sir, 
I think we disagree,  sir. 
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about  destroying 
nfrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as  aggressive as 
ackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, Antietam, 
tysbg, 
 Monocacy. 
I am not dispersing  you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
alanced  combination. 
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the  Anvil. 
The Hammer was Jackson. 
The Anvil was the wonderful  James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
Also, just curious, I don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
estroying the RR bridge  over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
n fact, if you think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
ranite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock the darn thing over 
ithout a 
hole lot of  valuable time and trouble? 
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
p north and attack piecemeal in  overwhelming force. 
The purpose of going north for Lee was to  de-stabilizing the North. 
verything else was a subset. 
A Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist, 
eter  


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-----------------------------
Message: 5
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:18:50 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E0CC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Peter:
When I have some time finalized, I will let you know to see if you are free.  As 
 said earlier, I don't have anything planned at the moment, but wanted to put 
his on the list of places to visit this summer, should I find myself having a 
ree weekend.
Thanks, 
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ndy-

 don't come into the GDG to solicit business as a  tourguide.  It is probably 
nappropriate.

ut since you asked I sent an email out of the room but I  didn't get your 
ddress right and I got a bounce back.

 am a Civil War battlefield tour  guide.  I am kind of like a prostitute.  
'll go anywhere  anytime.  Been taking bus tours to the battlefields for
0  years.

've been prowling the battlefields around DC for 30+  years.

redericksburg-  I'd like to go wander around the  Slaughter Pen some more. 
The northern stonewall is over-rated.  The  southern end of the battlefield is 
ar more interesting.

here is a really really great restaurant on the river- very  romantic.  
ind of a fancy place now but it it used to be a cheap  sports brass and fern 
ar.  Now called Tru Love's.  It has a  webvsite.   The manager James might 
hrow us a  free round.

ust so you know,  I love being on a battlefield. I go by  myself all the time.  
'll go anywhere.

f you want a tour guide I will work for chili and beer.   Anywhere you 
ant to go.  You should go on the Booth Escape Route tour with  me.  Way cool.

ny time anyone from GDG wants to go out and poke around a  battlefield I'll do 
t for chili and beer.  That goes for  everyone. 

e'll take John Grim.  He's fun.  Save your  money.  Let's get John and have 
ome fun.  

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if  it is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at  the moment other 
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free  weekends which are in 
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to  get to Fredericksburg 
nd tour some of those battlefields.
Is there  anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one 
ould use  for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?  Or does anyone know of 
eople  who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which 
ne  could hire a guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history  of what transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and  area could show you 
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern  town almost on the edge 
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground"  as the time of the battle 
nd where various points are in relation to each  other (I hope this makes  
ense).
Thanks,
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Message: 6
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:38:42 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <177bd.5a3004e.3c5054b2 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey Andy-

HNX-

ou can easily spend years prowling around battlefields in  this area. 
here is also something new to go try to find.

here is never enough time for any one place which is  fortunate in one 
ay.  But the other side of the coin is that it gets dark  and the park police 
ome and chase you off the battlefield..

redericksburg has some wonderful restaurants.  I wish I  could have lived 
own there also but......

ru Love's is right on the river across from the island north  oif the 
ridge and S of the northern landing poiunt.  Has huge picture  windows to watch 
the Rappahannock current flow by.  Way cool.   Fireplace too.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 1:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter:
When I have some time finalized, I  will let you know to see if you are 
ree.  As I said earlier, I don't  have anything planned at the moment, but 
anted to put this on the list of  places to visit this summer, should I find 
yself having a free  weekend.
Thanks, 
-----Original Message-----
rom:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
n Behalf  Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM
o:  gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour  Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ndy-
I don't come  into the GDG to solicit business as a  tourguide.  It is 
robably  inappropriate.
But since you asked I sent an email out of the room but  I  didn't get your 
ddress right and I got a bounce back.
I am a  Civil War battlefield tour  guide.  I am kind of like a  
rostitute.  
'll go anywhere  anytime.  Been taking bus  tours to the battlefields for
0  years.
I've been prowling the  battlefields around DC for 30+  years.
Fredericksburg-  I'd  like to go wander around the  Slaughter Pen some 
ore. 
he northern  stonewall is over-rated.  The  southern end of the 
attlefield is  far more interesting.
There is a really really great restaurant on the  river- very  romantic.  
ind of a fancy place now but it it used  to be a cheap  sports brass and 
ern 
ar.  Now called Tru  Love's.  It has a  webvsite.   The manager James 
ight  
hrow us a  free round.
Just so you know,  I love being  on a battlefield. I go by  myself all the 
ime.  I'll go  anywhere.
If you want a tour guide I will work for chili and  beer.   Anywhere you 
ant to go.  You should go on the  Booth Escape Route tour with  me.  Way 
ool.
Any time anyone  from GDG wants to go out and poke around a  battlefield 
'll do it for  chili and beer.  That goes for  everyone. 
We'll take John  Grim.  He's fun.  Save your  money.  Let's get John and  
ave some fun.  
A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter   

n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
 hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if  it  is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned  at  the moment 
ther than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having  free  weekends 
hich are in short supply due to some family issues), I  would like to  get to 
redericksburg and tour some of those  battlefields.
Is there  anything like the Gettysburg Licensed  Battlefield Tour Guides 
ne could use  for the Fredericksburg area  battlefields?  Or does anyone know 
f people  who do it in their  spare time or through a company in the area 
n which one  could hire a  guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history  of what  transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and   area could show 
ou those "out of the way" type places and with the  modern  town almost on 
he edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know  "the ground"  as the time 
f the battle and where various points are in  relation to each  other (I 
ope this makes   sense).
Thanks,
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Message: 7
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:42:22 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327430542.46001.YahooMailNeo at web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because 
he river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. 

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very 
wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.

A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.? 
Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
capital and RR center.

Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.

A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter? 


In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:

Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge 
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames 
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 


Regards, 


Margaret 

----- Original? Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>> And 
in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
without a 
whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
Regards, Tom B.? 





-----Original Message----- 
From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
Dave, 

Respectfully Sir, 

I think we disagree,? sir. 

Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
Gtysbg, 
& Monocacy. 

I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
balanced? combination. 

By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 

The Hammer was Jackson. 

The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 

Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
without a 
whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 

Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 

The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
Everything else was a subset. 

A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
Peter? 





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------------------------------
Message: 8
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:48:36 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E119 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jeff:
Out of curiosity:  is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City Island 
cross from the city?  
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
our point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because 
he river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free. 

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but 
very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.

A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.
Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
capital and RR center.

Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.

A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter


In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:

Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge 
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames 
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 


Regards, 


Margaret 

----- Original? Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>> And 
in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
without a 
whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
Regards, Tom B.? 





-----Original Message----- 
From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
Dave, 

Respectfully Sir, 

I think we disagree,? sir. 

Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
Gtysbg, 
& Monocacy. 

I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
balanced? combination. 

By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 

The Hammer was Jackson. 

The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 

Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
without a 
whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 

Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 

The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
Everything else was a subset. 

A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
Peter? 





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------------------------------
Message: 9
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:59:51 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right?
essage-ID: <e65cc1ec1ec74.4f1effa7 at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<<  In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV flanking 
ttack?
Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of the 
ctions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was intending to move 
 large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the case later in the 
ay), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to debate (that he 
idn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's brigade), but I think 
he final conclusion of his (not the move), that a large force of the enemy was 
oving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is a valid conclusion.  >>
Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at all sure this did 
quate to discovering any particular intent to move a large force around his 
lank.  Now, that of course is what ended up happening, but at the time of the 
itzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was an extension of the 
onfederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and not necessarily a wider 
lanking movement.
here's also the matter of how, had Sickles taken up his assigned sector, 
nstead of moving forward, the intended Confederate flanking movement wouldn't 
ave ended up off his flank at all.
Jim Cameron 

-----------------------------
Message: 10
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:00:59 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <186a3.30368703.3c5059eb at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
This may rile some feathers and make a kerfluffle but I have  had a couple 
ozen LBG on my tourbuses at GTYSBG and have never really been very  
mpressed by them.  Sure, the tourists love it.

ut tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie.

ut I sit there and look out the window and want to go  Hey!  Point that 
ut!  What about that?  Point this  out.

 had a LBG once who only wanted to talk about about Daniel  Sickles  
hooting Philip Barton Key on Lafayette Square 75 mi away in  DC.  Meanwhile the 
bus is rolling past Oak Ridge and the Peach Orchid and  the guy was talking 
bout P.B. Key.  As a matter of protocol and  courtesy you don't contradict 
nother guide on a tour but I had to  repeatedly keep telling him discreetly 
o stay on topic.  Did no good  tho.  Didn't stop talking about it til the 
our was over.  The tour co  provided the tip for the guy but I didn't want 
o give it to him.

 love the story....  I tell it a lot as a ghost story on  Lafayette 
quare.  One of my favorite stories.  But when LRT is  rolling by outside the 
us 
indow you should talk about that,  not Sickles  and Key.   


  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:36:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
o. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace  their history back to 
he day after the battle.
he NPS inherited them  when they took over the park and there has been a 
artnership of sorts  ever since.
an you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide  service, 
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the  property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty,  but 
enerally 
ood.
hey do have these NPS tours at  Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere  would be a retired 
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But,  having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides 
t  
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do  
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms  
f the minituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at  Normandy.
Regards,
Jack


9
----  Original Message ----- 
rom: "Andy Mills"  <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12  AM
ubject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

 Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
 I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies  if it is not.

 At some point this summer (I don't have anything  planned at the moment 
 other than this is a goal of mine but depends  upon having free weekends 
 which are in short supply due to some  family issues), I would like to 
et 
 to Fredericksburg and tour some  of those battlefields.

 Is there anything like the Gettysburg  Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides 
ne 
 could use for the Fredericksburg  area battlefields?  Or does anyone know 
 of people who do it in  their spare time or through a company in the area 
 in which one could  hire a guide?

 It is one of those things where I know the  history of what transpired in 
 Fredericksburg but someone familiar  with the ground and area could show 
 you those "out of the way" type  places and with the modern town almost 
n 
 the edge of the NPS land,  it is very hard to know "the ground" as the 
ime 
 of the battle and  where various points are in relation to each other (I 
 hope this makes  sense).

 Thanks,
  
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-----------------------------
Message: 11
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:34 -0500 (EST)
rom: idunc at q.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
essage-ID:
<1202429509.2256702.1327431874089.JavaMail.root at md02.quartz.synacor.com>

ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
 
<<Neo-Confederate:  One who gives the impression of living under an unusually 
rotracted Union occupation. 
Jim Cameron>>
Frigg'in brilliant!!
Ian Duncanson


------------------------------
Message: 12
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:06:55 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <e4c5c4401ab04.4f1f014f at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<<  The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not 
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the 
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who 
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about 
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years 
go.  >>
As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide 
orce (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one 
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
Jim Cameron  

-----------------------------
Message: 13
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:24:37 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <96922F6FE46A4E07965699417FDC368A at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If 
hey pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns 
efore being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg 
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be 
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like 
our style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 <<  The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not 
 unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, 
 IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was 
 O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and began giving tours 
 when he was about fifteen. The current guide service was started a little 
 more than five years ago.  >>

 As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a 
 guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does 
 have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.

 Jim Cameron
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------------------------------
Message: 14
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:28:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <19a11.4b5259d5.3c506067 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.

he Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water  source of the 
hes Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern NY  state.

xtremely wide.  Just north of the state border with MD  there is a huge 
am, the Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile  Island.

omeone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are  apparent in low 
ater on the R at Wrightsville.

 cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any  significant number of 
nfantry east of the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as well 
ave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's Island.  

f I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of  the river but 
ot infantry.

n magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of  loggers putting 
og rafts a good mile long down the river from NY.  Pretty  amazing stories.

he Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East Coast.  The 
udson also is an earthquake fault, oddly  enough.  If I lived in Manhatten I 
ouldn't be able to sleep knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.

f you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is a 
rater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.

he Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix  here!).  The 
verflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my 
rabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up  to water 
evel 
ith silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares  experts, and 
osts me sleep at night worrying about it.

admium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty  scary.

hat's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am 
ticking to it.


  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eff:
Out of curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below City 
sland across from the city?   
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
n Behalf  Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
o: GDG
ubject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
our  point about the river being shallow is true today.  However that is  
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war the  river 
lowed free. 

amaste
Jeff  Burk

________________________________
From:  "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in  summer  droughts but 
very wide and quite an obstacle. Very  rocky.

A smart and careful commander would not want to put more  than  an 
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on  the east side of 
he  river.
Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a  state 
capital and RR  center.

Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the  river  there.

A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
Peter


In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mdblough1 at comcast.net  writes:

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to keep the  Confederates using it 
o  
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is on 
he 
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to   attack the city 
rom 
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction, the 
NV 
generals on the scene saw the  advantages to saving it and  tried to save 
t. 
The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in the  world but 
ridges 
were  needed to cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another 
ntil  
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could  be  rebuilt 
ater 
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't easily 
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a wood &  stone covered 
ridge 
believed to be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and the 
lames 
that  destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite  supports.  


Regards, 


Margaret  

----- Original  Message -----
From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11  PM  
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes: 
>>> And 
in fact, if you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of big 
granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to  knock the darn thing over  
without a 
whole lot of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
(not the granite supports   of course), by Union militia. 
Regards, Tom B.   





-----Original Message-----  
From: CWMHTours at aol.com  
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28 PM 
To: gettysburg at arthes.com  
Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat 

Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:  
Dave, 

Respectfully Sir, 

I think we  disagree,  sir. 

Where is it written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about  destroying 
infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was just about as  aggressive as 
Jackson was in  bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, Antietam, 

Gtysbg, 
& Monocacy. 

I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a  
balanced  combination. 

By the time of 2nd Man Lee  could see the Hammer and the  Anvil. 

The Hammer was  Jackson. 

The Anvil was the wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 

Also, just curious, I  don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned 
bout 
destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. 
nd  
in fact, if you think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of  big 
granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock the darn  thing over 
without a 
whole lot of  valuable time and  trouble? 

Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming forces 
up north and attack piecemeal in   overwhelming force. 

The purpose of going north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North. 
Everything else was a subset.  

A Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist, 
Peter   





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Message: 15
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:32:13 -0500
rom: Dave Gillespie <gillespd at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<CAK09S9UGQTXyXEdxUgwF6Sm=KpudQw5XNwnX8ZQrZVi3-zOuxg at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
here it is also very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
usquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
n South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
s a fascinating river.
Thanks,
ave Gillespie
arsippany, NJ
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.

 The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water ?source of the
 Ches Bay. ?Goes all the way up into southern NY ?state.

 Extremely wide. ?Just north of the state border with MD ?there is a huge
 dam, the Conowingo. ?some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile ?Island.

 Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are ?apparent in low
 water on the R at Wrightsville.

 I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any ?significant number of
 infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG ?campaign. ?You might as well
 wave goodbye as ?they marched off to ?Johnson's Island.

 If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of ?the river but
 not infantry.

 In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of ?loggers putting
 log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. ?Pretty ?amazing stories.

 The Susq ?R is an earthquake fault. ?Interesting on ?the East Coast. ?The
 Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly ?enough. ?If I lived in Manhatten I
 wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. ?And certainly in a high rise.

 If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C ?Bay is a
 crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.

 The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix ?here!). ?The
 overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I ?need my
 crabs!). ?And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up ?to water 
evel
 with silt. ?The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares ?experts, and
 costs me sleep at night worrying about it.

 Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty ?scary.

 That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and ?I am
 sticking to it.


 A ?Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 amills at jplcreative.com writes:

 Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes:
 Jeff:

 Out of curiosity: ?is the dam in ?which you refer, the one just below City
 Island across from the city?

 Thanks,

 -----Original Message-----
 From: ?gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf ?Of Jeff Burk
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: ?Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Your ?point about the river being shallow is true today. ?However that is
 because the river has been dammed upstream. ?during the ?war the ?river
 flowed free.


 Namaste

 Jeff ?Burk


>________________________________
>From: ?"CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: ?gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 ?PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG ?Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in ?summer ?droughts but
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very ?rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more ?than ?an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on ?the east side of
 the ?river.
>Harrisburg was no significant ?military goal other than being a ?state
>capital and RR ?center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the ?river ?there.
>
>A ?Loyal Neo-Anti ?Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 ?2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>mdblough1 at comcast.net ?writes:
>
>Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The ?militia destroyed it in order to keep the ?Confederates using it
 to
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. ?Harrisburg ?is on
 the
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to ? attack the city
 from
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the ?bridge's ?destruction, the
 ANV
>generals on the scene saw the ?advantages to saving it and ?tried to save
 it.
>The Susquehanna is ?not one of the wildest rivers in the ?world but
 bridges
>were ?needed to cross it and with that bridge out there ?wasn't another
 until
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could ?be ?rebuilt
 later
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of ?precision ?wasn't easily
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville ?bridge was a wood & ?stone covered
 bridge
>believed to be the ?longest such bridge in the world at ?the time and the
 flames
>that ?destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite ?supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original ?Message -----
>From: "Tom" ?<bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG" ? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 ?PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed ?GDG Member ?Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you ?think about it, the damn ?thing IS still made of big
>granite ?blocks. Now just how are you going to ?knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and ?trouble? ?<<< It was destroyed, by fire
>(not the granite supports ? of course), by Union militia.
>Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 ?9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Subject: Re: GDG- ?Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member ?Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we ?disagree, ?sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed ?with Jackson about ?destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I ?think Lee was just about as ?aggressive as
>Jackson was in ?bringing the war to your opponent. for ?example, Antietam,

>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not ?dispersing ?you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced ?combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee ?could see the Hammer and the ?Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was ?Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful ?James Peter ?Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I ?don't ?recall reference to Lee being concerned
 about
>destroying ?the RR bridge ?over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
 And
>in fact, if you think ?about it, the damn thing IS still made of ?big
>granite blocks. Now just how ?are you going to knock the darn ?thing over
>without a
>whole lot of ?valuable time and ?trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. ?Raids. ?Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in ? overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was ?to ?de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal ?Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 16
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:36:05 -0800
rom: Matt Diestel <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<CA+i57zYGHKKp=CYK99_HWfHzb0J5RMidX_Kiwkv2_NJ=JtLdyw at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
 Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:


 As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
 their forces prior to the battle.
 The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
 trapped, so what the hey.
 The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
 Cumberland that was never going to happen.
 Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
 piecemeal.

 Regards,

 Jack

    As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not
 to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time.
 Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
 best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
 requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
 same time.
                With regards,
                       Chet

-----------------------------
Message: 17
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:39:37 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <5406AD3E-2A0E-45CD-B3B6-F4C87FD87C49 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders required 
im to cover Baltimore as well.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
> 
 
 
> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
> their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
> piecemeal.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> 
>   As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not
> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.
 
                With regards,
                        Chet
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Message: 18
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:07 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda.
essage-ID: <374.3c0e8260.3c506317 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I am 100% convinced that if Sickles had taken the axis II Cps  - LRT that 
here would have been no crisis on Day 2.  His III C. 2 divs  should have 
een more than sufficient to handle any attack by the Hood or  McLaws.

eade was given a free hand by Lincoln. Remove any officers he  wanted, 
romote any officers he wanted, (Hey! No one's addressing my ?s about  Merritt, 
arnsworth & Custer.  THNX guys.)

f I wuz Meade after the 2nd Day I wudda stood one-legged  Sickles against 
 tree, pulled out my .44 Colt and shot him in the  head.

ust my opinion and I get feedback from people that I am too  easy and 
ompassionate in my views. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:01:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
ameron2 at optimum.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
<  In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles  right in "discovering" the ANV 
lanking attack?
Granted, he didn't run  into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of 
he actions against  Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was 
ntending to move a large force  to attack his flank (which was eventually the 
ase 
ater in the day), but the  manner in which he went about it is subject to 
ebate (that he didn't discover  Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's 
rigade), but I think the final  conclusion of his (not the move), that a 
arge force of the enemy was moving  south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is 
 valid conclusion.   >>
Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at  all sure this 
id equate to discovering any particular intent to move a large  force 
round his flank.  Now, that of course is what ended up happening,  but at the 
ime of the Pitzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was  an 
xtension of the Confederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and  not 
ecessarily a wider flanking movement.
here's also the matter of how,  had Sickles taken up his assigned sector, 
nstead of moving forward, the  intended Confederate flanking movement 
ouldn't have ended up off his flank at  all.
Jim Cameron  
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Message: 19
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:33 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <D7AF5F8BF72544D091B9FC13085B4766 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
   Can try this site - ALBG Site. 
http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs.html
Regards,
om B.
-----Original Message----- 
rom: Dave Glorioso 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:35 AM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ny syllabi from  those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that 
an be purchased or shared?
ave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the 
ay after the battle.
 The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a 
artnership of sorts ever since.
 Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, 
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
 
 The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally 
ood.
 They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
 
 In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired 
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
 
 But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at 
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do 
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of 
he minituae of the field.
 
 Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 
 
 
 
 9
 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
 To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
 Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
 
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
> 
> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other 
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in 
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg 
nd tour some of those battlefields.
> 
> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one 
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?  Or does anyone know of 
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which 
ne could hire a guide?
> 
> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you 
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge 
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle 
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes 
ense).
> 
> Thanks,
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Message: 20
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:45:52 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <7ff.596acb79.3c50646f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Don't hook me!  Please!  Don't hook me!

-{)   !!!!!

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:19:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
awrence at rwlcpa.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
nytime a member finds themselves commenting "don't  hook me" its best to 
top right there and not send the  post.
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
n Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent:  Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:52 AM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
om  B.-
My Friend-
If you are worried about getting slammed by other  members in  the GDG 
lease   feel free to sign MY   name at the bottom  of your posts.  I can 
ake the 
ain.   See if Al  responds.
I am starting to get used to it.  like a  duck in the  rain.
What is frequently lost in discussion of Lee,  Longstreet and  Jackson 
s/are the two Napoleonic Maxims of  War.
Which are:
1:. Always attack with overwhelming force [A  modern example  being Donald 
umsflod "You go to war with what you  got"{DON'T HOOK ME  THIS ! 
ERMAINE!!!!!]}   (  Did I  spell  germaine right?)
2.  Always keep your opponent off  bakance.
Lee was a master of these 2 emxample beimg iftims.   Our  esteemned Noble 
od Shelby Foote labeled as geniuses both Lincoln  and Forrest  but you have 
o admit that Lee, Jackson and Longstreet  belong in the ampheuon  
Spell?)of heroes.
NOT AS A MODERN  POLITICAL COMMENT!  DON'T HOOK  ME!!!!!!
It is effficient as  a military commander to attack  with "overwhelming 
orce" for example  being  that sometimes if you bring a  LOT of your dudes the 

ther guy runs away, ie. the  first Gulf War. (Also, as a  bachelor,}   the 
irst datecan get scared  and his dudes  orun away.  [As a bachelor on a 
irst date  when attacking with  overwhelming force does't work very well.  I 
on't  know why   
RE: Viet Nam.   {DON'T HOOK ME!!!!!   THIS   is GERMAINE!  }  in the 
xample 
Military-not  political-  don't HOOK me!]    In the peak of the quantitiy 
f   troops.the
axim of overwhelming force did not work in that  the  US  got as high as 
50,000 troops) (Correct me if that figger  is  wrong.)    The maxim fails 
s..... but we have few  other  examples 
A modern example is the Humvees in Iraq   [DON'T HOOK  ME!!!!!  DO YOU SEE 
LL THE EXCLAMATION MARKS?   THAT MEANS DOIN'T HOOK  ME- NOR YOU'L;L NEVER 
ET A BOWL OF CHILI IN IN  DC IF YOU
That military idiot said go to war with what you got qand  we  got 
fghanisant and Iraq,
We should mot have gone in there  until we were  prepared.
The analogy being Pap Thomas at  Nashville.  he  didn'tattack until all his 
ogistics was  readv

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter   

n a message dated 1/23/2012 11:12:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
isclaimer : I respect Lee, and a big  fan of Longstreet  - but - I 
onestly feel Lee's finest hours was the  Jackson episodes,  thus deferring to 
ost 
f Dave's post. IMHO - Lee was an  accomplished  strategist - Jackson was 
he tactician, deferring to your  post of the  Lee-Jackson combo. Sometimes I 
onder (at the risk of getting  slammed in  this group), whether Lee headed 
orth, besides the tried and  true  reasons, to stave off the chance of 
osing some of his command  to the  West (Vicksburg especially). Commanders 
on't like to lose troops  to  another command, maybe an ego thing ;-D. Not 
aying Lee's best  interests  for the Confederacy were not in his heart, but 
he acceleration  of his  movements after meeting with Davis was  (to me) a 
it suspect.  If  my musings are wrong, so be it, as I'm sure this esteemed 
roup will  put  me in the right direction - just a thought, though! (Have to 
o back  to  lurker mode - starting to put my fat in the fire  !!)
Regards,
om  B.

-----Original  Message-----
rom: Tom
ent: Monday,  January 23, 2012 10:38  PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>> And
n fact,  if you think about  it, the damn thing IS still made  of big 
ranite  blocks. Now just  how are you going to knock the darn thing over 
ithout  a
hole lot of  valuable time and trouble?  <<<     It was  destroyed, by fire
not the granite supports of  course), by Union  militia.
egards, Tom  B.


-----Original  Message-----
rom:  CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Monday, January 23,  2012 9:28 PM
o:  gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
ave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we   disagree, sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with  Jackson  about  destroying 
nfrastructure in the North?  I  think Lee was  just about as  aggressive as 
ackson was in bringing  the war to your  opponent. for example,  Antietam, 
tysbg, &  Monocacy.
I  am not dispersing you personally.  I just see  Lee &  Jackson as  being 
 balanced combination.
By the  time of 2nd Man Lee could see  the Hammer and the  Anvil.
The  Hammer was Jackson.
The  Anvil was the wonderful James Peter  Longstreet,  the Old  Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't  recall reference to Lee  being  concerned 
bout destroying the RR  bridge over the Susq. R.  being a big concern  of his.  
 
nd
n fact, if you think about it,  the damn thing IS still  made  of big 
ranite blocks. Now just how are  you going to knock  the darn thing over 
ithout a whole lot of valuable  time and  trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just  that.    Raids.  Move overwhelming forces
p north and attack  piecemeal   in overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north  for Lee was to  de-stabilizing the  North.
verything else was  a  subset.
A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
eter


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Message: 21
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:50:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <15921.3869595a.3c50658f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I  understand the system at Gettysburg 
onsists of a written test and, even  if you pass the test, you have to be 
nterviewed by the guides, who can  turn you down if they just d not like 
our style.

here is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut  
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The  
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is 
iven to  an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the 
andidate is asked  to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance. 
OTH the ranger and  the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you 
an give a factual,  good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, 
ut you are not  "interviewed" by guides.

oth the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor  
ets a quality tour. 

eter previously stated that:

Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a  
orsepie.

he tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,  
nd one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat 
he  customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is 
"stupid"

ndy Ward



------------------------------
Message: 22
ate: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:11:21 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Dave- a Second Response
essage-ID: <845lsq5f5qplylil6swld7q2.1327374681880 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Unfortunately, this dream scenario ignores the fact that the war in the west was 
nexorably moving east.
umbers, assets and geography were going to play a heavy staccato on the south , 
s the confederate will slowly drained.
egards, 
acj
CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
In more thought, at the risk of annoying  everyone.
 
By 2nd Man  Lee had the perfect instrument of  war.
 
Just absolutely perfect.
 
Longstreet, the master of solid assault and massive  defense.
 
Jackson, the master of fast Napoleonic warfare.
 
Had that miraculous triumvirate survived Chancallorseville, it  may not 
have been the battle of Gettysburg or anything else that we would  recognize in 
>battle to this day.
 
Easily if Jackson had lived there just might never be any  battle of 
Gettysburg at all.  It would still be a quiet little boring farm  town like 
Adamstown or Littlestown. 
 
 Inconsequential. 
 
Jackson is the "X" factor of the war the East.  Had he  survived Chncvl 
anything could have happened- including Northern defeat on the  battlefield.
 
A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter  

 
In a message dated 1/23/2012 8:24:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
glory at zbzoom.net writes:

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
Just finished "how the south could have won the  civil war", by Bevin 
Alexander-Armchair General 3-2012

It ends:  
Saddled with leaders like Davis and Lee, who could not perceive reality,  
the South's defeat was inevitable.

The crux of the article is Jackson  understood that the means of war now 
favored the defense as witnessed during  the  7 days battles when only 1 of 
Lee's 5 frontal attacks  succeeded.
Rifled muskets and canister would bleed out the southern army at  this rate.
Instead, Jackson encouraged offensive movement leading to a  defensive 
stance on ground of his choice.
He also favored aggressive  northern invasion with additional plans to 
destroy factories, railroads and  mines.
Both Davis and Lee rejected his strategy. Davis was in favor of a  more 
passive policy hoping the north would tire or Britain/France would  intervene.
Lee favored frontal attacks.

At second manassas,  Jackson's proposals led to an opportunity to destroy 
Pope's army. It may have  worked if Lee would have attacked Popes left 
earlier, failing to prevent  retreat. 
At Antietam, Jackson disagreed with Lee's goal of going to  destroy the  
bridge over the Susquehanna.
Instead he wanted to draw  Mac to attack him north of Washington with added 
goal of destroying factories  etc
When battle took place at Antietam, Lee chose to fight despite little  room 
for maneuver. Jackson's ideals would have favored withdrawing to a more  
favorable defensive position.
At Fredericksburg, Jackson proposed going  south to North Anna River where 
the cavalry would better be able to prevent  the union army's retreat and 
resupply.
At Chancellorsville, Lee put  Jackson's strategy in place. An end around to 
cut off Hookers retreat over the  Rappahannock  at US Ford was foiled by 
Jackson's wound.
Lee invaded  North again but continued his fixation on frontal attacks 
during three costly  days at Gettysburg.

The above are interesting points although over  simplified and without 
primary  sources.

Thoughts?
Dave


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Message: 23
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:50:52 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <8hsfemq5hbt2rq1exwxltcl5.1327431052241 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is 
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed 
ree. 


?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk


>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very 
>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.? 
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter? 
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge 
>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the 
lames 
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 
>
>
>Regards, 
>
>
>Margaret 
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>> And 
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
>without a 
>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
>Regards, Tom B.? 
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>Dave, 
>
>Respectfully Sir, 
>
>I think we disagree,? sir. 
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
>Gtysbg, 
>& Monocacy. 
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
>balanced? combination. 
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 
>
>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
>without a 
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
>Everything else was a subset. 
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
>Peter? 
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 24
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:58:34 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <ht7yrnan589pli7naujedsdm.1327424314263 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
They still present the classes.
ou just can it get them from the HACC anymore.
he course list us on their site.
'll look for the address.
egards,
ack
tw for clarification, I wasn't studying to be a battlefield guide. The HACC 
dvertised them poorly in their mail outs and I signed up.
Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Any syllabi from  those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that 
an be purchased or shared?
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the 
ay after the battle.
> The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a 
artnership of sorts ever since.
> Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, 
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
> 
> The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally 
ood.
> They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
> 
> In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired 
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
> 
> But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at 
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do 
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of 
he minituae of the field.
> 
> Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
> Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
> 
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
>> 
>> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other 
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in 
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg 
nd tour some of those battlefields.
>> 
>> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one 
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?  Or does anyone know of 
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which 
ne could hire a guide?
>> 
>> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you 
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge 
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle 
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes 
ense).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
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> 
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Message: 25
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:01:33 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <133c.25722d32.3c50681d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jack!

o...no...no...!

ure, Lee wanted to spare VA.  He wanted to spare VA, W  VA, N.C., and the 
est of the South.

ou appear to forget....  VA was the Battleline.   The front.  And it was 
etting chewed up and decimated by the armies  sitting there.  Like Verdun.  
Don't hook me!] 

ut, IMHO, you read Lee wrong if you forget the two  Maxims of battle.  By 
nserting the ANV into the  north HE controlled the battle.  HE had the 
niative and  could force the N. to react instead of waiting in VA for the AoP 
o take the  iniative for the attack.

here is a lot to be argued for retaining only the  defensive.  He could 
ave sat S of the Rap R waiting for another UNION  attack.  But there were 
ime constraints.

e had to help wear out the will to fight on the north.   If he sat S of 
he Rap R the N could only build up and reinforce their  armies.

e had to keep the N off balance and away from decimating  the S farmland.  
e couldn't attack DC because it was a  fortress.  It had, until July 1964, 
n army of 30k in it.  He  could only go N of the Napoleonic capital and 
care the dickens out of the  North. 

ack!.... No ..... No ....No!  You are all wrong  sir.

ut I love you, man.....

-{) 

 Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:50:16 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time, 
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message ----- 
 

rom: <atmackeyjr at aol.com>
o:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:10  AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 As to why he moved  north in the Pennsylvania Campaign, I don't think 
e'll ever know with  100% certainty.
He wanted to spare Virginia.
>Avoiding losing  troops to the west may very well have been part of his  
thinking.
Didn't he tell Davis that, at least in so mnay  words?
>He himself said that he wanted to subsist his army in enemy  territory, 
ive 
Virginia farmers an opportunity to bring in a good  crop without armies in 
the way, and disrupt the Federals' plans for  their own defensive.
This is correct. He wanted to spare  Virginia.
>Of these stated objectives, he did disrupt any plans  Hooker may have had 
for an offensive....
>He wanted to spare  virginia. And why would the aoP go south when Lee came 
north and bared  whis throat to the AoP...He wanted to spare Virginia.
>If he had the  unstated objective of avoiding sending troops to the west, 
e 
did that  as well,
He wanted to spare Virginia.
>but I think we can  postulate that if that was one of his objectives it 
as 
because he  felt that a victory in the north would siphon off troops from  
Vicksburg.  We'll never know about that part, but the nice thing  about 
 >counterfactuals is that either way we argue, as long as we  extrapolate 
from known historical facts, we're all 100% correct.   : )
This is the type of postulate we get down to when we just cannot  come up 
ith any military justification for the campaign.
> I  believe we can say with near certainty that Lee always planned to win 
  victories in battles, so whatever he hoped to accomplish in the 
  Pennsylvania campaign depended, at least in part, on defeating the 
  Federals.
Or he just wanted to spare  Virginia.
Regards,
Jack


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Message: 26
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:10:01 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <18a9.f0b82c3.3c506a19 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
THNX Andy-

ou make good points.

an you imagine how I felt on that one bus tour when we were  riding past 
ickett's Charge and the LGBG was talking about Sickles shooting  Key.

 have a long list of real nightmares that occurred on tours  and that one 
eeps floating near the top after 20 years.

ot many people would appreciate it- even other tour  guides.

ut you people should.

he rule is you talk about what people see out the  window.  You tell them 
efore they see it what they are gonna see,   you tell them what they are 
eeing when they see it, and you tell what they saw  after they saw it.

 real simple rule.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter

 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:51:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
Ward61890 at aol.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:

n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I   understand the system at Gettysburg 
onsists of a written test and,  even  if you pass the test, you have to be 
nterviewed by the guides,  who can  turn you down if they just d not like 
our  style.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make  the cut  
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually  an oral exam. 
he  
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2  hour car tour which is 
iven to  an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger.  After the first tour the 
andidate is asked  to make any necessary  adjustments and gets a second 
hance. 
OTH the ranger and  the guide  grade the candidate. It all comes down to 
f you 
an give a factual,   good tour of the battlefield. That is over 
implified, 
ut you are  not  "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force  are just trying to make sure the visitor 

ets a quality tour.  
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But  tourists don't know a cowpie from a  
orsepie.
The tour is for  the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,  
nd one  thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't 
reat  
he  customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying  customer 
s 
stupid"
Andy  Ward


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Message: 27
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:12:24 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <1a4e.11720df0.3c506aa8 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Yes- they are visible, you can see them from the  57mm's.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:56:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ren't the piers still  visible?
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom:  <128thpa at comcast.net>
o: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:25  AM
ubject: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:






 There is  a small but very interesting museum in Wrightsville that has 
 photos  of the many bridges that cross the Susquehanna around there. 
IRC, 
  the bridge that burnt down was not the first bridge in that spot. There 
s  
 a diorama of the burning of the bridge: 
  http://www.historicwrightsvillepa.org/historic_wrightsville_museum



  Paula

 <<The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood  & stone covered bridge 
 believed to be the longest such bridge in  the world at the time and the 
 flames that destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite supports. >>


  
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Message: 28
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:29:34 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <A6669B8758384E7B9A89848D957D3A24 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
   What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to 
he visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the 
olks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for 
he sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG 
ours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of 
nowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info). 
e make at least  2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a 
our with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we 
sually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've 
orked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can 
ount on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) 
isitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. 
 Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive 
esponses every time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of 
orts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam 
uides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a 
uck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the 
ettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be 
one in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more 
-D
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message----- 
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I  understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even  if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can  turn you down if they just d not like
our style.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. 
he
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is
iven to  an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the
andidate is asked  to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second 
hance.
OTH the ranger and  the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if 
ou
an give a factual,  good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified,
ut you are not  "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor
ets a quality tour.
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a
orsepie.
The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,
nd one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat
he  customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is
stupid"
Andy Ward


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Message: 29
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:32:46 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- My Tummy!
essage-ID: <282e.132614db.3c506f6e at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi!

 just mentioned it in passing.  I have a big interest in  geography and 
here every thing is.  I am under the impression that in the  deep cancerous 
ilt behind the Conowingo that there is residual low level  radiation 
ontaminants from the 70s.

reat!

HNX alot!  How am I going to be able to sleep tonite  when I am now 
orrying about the Conowingo Dam again? I've already got stomach trouble and now 
you ask about the  Conowingo!

ammit!  Ouch!  My tummy!

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:57:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
oors the damning have anything to do with three  mile island?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>  wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the  river being shallow is true today.  However that is 
ecause the river has  been dammed upstream.  during the  war the river 
lowed free.  


 Namaste
 
Jeff  Burk


>________________________________
>From:  "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To:  gettysburg at arthes.com 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The  river at that point is frequently shallow in summer  droughts but 
ery  
>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A  smart and careful commander would not want to put more than  an  
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east  side of 
he  river.  
>Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a  state 
>capital and RR  center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side  of the river  there.
>
>A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>Peter  
>
>
>In a  message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,   
>mdblough1 at comcast.net  writes:
>
>Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep  the  Confederates using it 
o 
>cross over the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg is on 
he 
>east and this  would have enabled the Confederates to  attack the city 
rom  
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's   destruction, the 
NV 
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to  saving it and  tried to save 
t. 
>The Susquehanna is not one  of the wildest rivers in the  world but 
ridges 
>were needed  to cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another 
ntil  
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could  be  rebuilt 
ater 
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't easily 
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a wood &  stone covered 
ridge 
>believed to be  the longest such bridge in the world at  the time and the 
lames  
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite  supports.  
>
>
>Regards,  
>
>
>Margaret 
>
>-----  Original  Message -----
>From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
>To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11 PM  
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat  
>
>Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:  
>>>> And 
>in fact, if you think about it, the  damn  thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to  knock the darn thing over 
>without a  
>whole lot of valuable time and  trouble? <<< It was  destroyed, by fire 
>(not the granite supports  of course), by  Union militia. 
>Regards, Tom B.   
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original  Message----- 
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com  
>Sent:  Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com   
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat  
>
>Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:  
>Dave, 
>
>Respectfully Sir,  
>
>I think we disagree,  sir.  
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson  about  destroying 
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee  was just about as  aggressive 
s 
>Jackson was in bringing the  war to your opponent. for  example, 
ntietam, 
>Gtysbg,  
>& Monocacy. 
>
>I am not dispersing   you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 

>balanced  combination. 
>
>By the time of  2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.  
>
>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>
>The  Anvil was the wonderful  James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.  
>
>Also, just curious, I don't  recall reference to  Lee being concerned 
bout 
>destroying the RR bridge  over the  Susq. R. being a big concern of his. 
nd 
>in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>granite  blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock the darn thing over 

>without a 
>whole lot of  valuable time and  trouble? 
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.   Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>up north and attack piecemeal  in  overwhelming force. 
>
>The purpose of going  north for Lee was to  de-stabilizing the North. 
>Everything  else was a subset. 
>
>A Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,  
>Peter   
>
>
>
>
>
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_arthes.com
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Message: 30
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:33:15 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3559F594-D08F-4BC9-BDF7-1DA2C62548CA at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To do 
hat, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long they 
ould stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he had 
efore the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
 where it is also very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
 Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
 in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
 is a fascinating river.
 
 Thanks,
 Dave Gillespie
 Parsippany, NJ
 
 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,  <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
> 
> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water  source of the
> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern NY  state.
> 
> Extremely wide.  Just north of the state border with MD  there is a huge
> dam, the Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile  Island.
> 
> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are  apparent in low
> water on the R at Wrightsville.
> 
> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any  significant number of
> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as well
> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's Island.
> 
> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of  the river but
> not infantry.
> 
> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of  loggers putting
> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY.  Pretty  amazing stories.
> 
> The Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East Coast.  The
> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly  enough.  If I lived in Manhatten I
> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
> 
> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is a
> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
> 
> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix  here!).  The
> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up  to water 
evel
> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares  experts, and
> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
> 
> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty  scary.
> 
> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
> sticking to it.
> 
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff:
> 
> Out of curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below City
> Island across from the city?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf  Of Jeff Burk
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Your  point about the river being shallow is true today.  However that is
> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war the  river
> flowed free.
> 
> 
> Namaste
> 
> Jeff  Burk
> 
> 
>> ________________________________
>> From:  "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14  PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in  summer  droughts but
>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very  rocky.
>> 
>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more  than  an
>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on  the east side of
> the  river.
>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a  state
>> capital and RR  center.
>> 
>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the  river  there.
>> 
>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> mdblough1 at comcast.net  writes:
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to keep the  Confederates using it
> to
>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is on
> the
>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to   attack the city
> from
>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction, the
> ANV
>> generals on the scene saw the  advantages to saving it and  tried to save
> it.
>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in the  world but
> bridges
>> were  needed to cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another
> until
>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could  be  rebuilt
> later
>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't easily
>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a wood &  stone covered
> bridge
>> believed to be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and the
> flames
>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite  supports.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Margaret
>> 
>> ----- Original  Message -----
>> From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>> To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11  PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>>> And
>> in fact, if you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of big
>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to  knock the darn thing over
>> without a
>> whole lot of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>> (not the granite supports   of course), by Union militia.
>> Regards, Tom B.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28 PM
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Dave,
>> 
>> Respectfully Sir,
>> 
>> I think we  disagree,  sir.
>> 
>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about  destroying
>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was just about as  aggressive as
>> Jackson was in  bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, Antietam,
> 
>> Gtysbg,
>> & Monocacy.
>> 
>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>> balanced  combination.
>> 
>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee  could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>> 
>> The Hammer was  Jackson.
>> 
>> The Anvil was the wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>> 
>> Also, just curious, I  don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
> about
>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
> And
>> in fact, if you think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of  big
>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock the darn  thing over
>> without a
>> whole lot of  valuable time and  trouble?
>> 
>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming forces
>> up north and attack piecemeal in   overwhelming force.
>> 
>> The purpose of going north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>> Everything else was a subset.
>> 
>> A Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
>>   -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
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Message: 31
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:37:49 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E24B at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As an aside:  if there are any battlefield guides on the list, I wanted to point 
ut that some of the information on the site is old and outdated.  For instance:  
ttp://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/rates.html .  This page has the prices 
ncorrect, as they have gone up to ( http://www.nps.gov/gett/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm 
 and I also noticed when talking about the tests ( http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs-writexam.html 
, they had the next upcoming test as December 2010.  
Just in case anyone has the contacts to mention the site has outdated 
nformation.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the 
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or 
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the 
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide 
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus 
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info). 
e make at least  2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour 
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually 
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, 
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to 
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour 
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. 
 Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses 
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do 
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list 
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to 
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - 
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your 
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message-----
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I  understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even  if you pass the test, you have to be 
nterviewed by the guides, who can  turn you down if they just d not like your 
tyle.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut there 
he so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. 
he
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to  
n existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked  
o make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance.
OTH the ranger and  the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you 
an give a factual,  good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, but 
ou are not  "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets 
 quality tour.
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie.
The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one 
hing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the  
ustomer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid"
Andy Ward


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------------------------------
Message: 32
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:26 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E26D at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line.  
lease don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I 
as one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass 
t over.  If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores, 
t becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space.  Added to this, 
t would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day 
ccordingly.  
I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people 
I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots 
re filled on a certain day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two 
o help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away 
usiness.  
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the 
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or 
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the 
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide 
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus 
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info). 
e make at least  2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour 
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually 
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, 
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to 
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour 
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. 
 Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses 
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do 
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list 
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to 
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - 
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your 
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.


-----------------------------
Message: 33
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:47:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <32e3.72bf9a9d.3c5072f9 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sir, 

espectfully,

  think you misread both the 2 maxims of battle AND Lee at CHNCVL

verwhelming force-  one way you apply that is to segment  off a part of 
he enemy's forces ands then hit them with overwhe4lming  force.  Military 
fficers from all over the world come here to research  Jackson's Valley 
ampaign.

epeatedly,  Jackson used surprise to keeps the  Yanks off balance and nip 
ff small segments like the MD brigade in Front  Royal.  He both kept them 
ff balance and struck with overwhelming force,  which is the cheapest way to 
in a battle. 

t Chncvl Lee followed BOTH rules after the Crackerbox  conference.  Yes,  
e divided his forces for Jackson's assault.   BUT he nipped off a wing of 
he AoP - the XIth Cps.  Hit them with the  WHOLE II Cps.  25K men odd (Is 
hat the reasonable figure?).  He  caught them by surprise-keeping them off 
alance.  And when he  attacked it was some 25k against, I think, less than 
0k in the XI  Cps.

o...  At Chncvl he was entirely following the 2 maxims  of battle.



  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter


n a message dated 1/24/2012 12:21:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
oadx1 at netscape.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
It would appear, then, that Lee was quite  willing to ignore the Napoleonic 
axims.  At Chancellorsville, for  example, he divided his army.  Jackson's 
lanking maneuver was not  overwhelming force; it was successful surprise 
hat succeeded because Lee  anticipated Hooker's reaction.  Second Manassas 
as a successful ambush  of an army that didn't know where Longstreet was.  
ickett's Charge was  hardly overwhelming force.
In short, Lee made do with the human  resources he had, which were never 
verwhelming in numbers.  He relied on  speed and surprise, and on the morale 
f his forces.  He also relied on  his knowledge of the AoP commanders.  A 
ot of psychology was involved,  but rarely, if ever,  overwhelming  force.


-----Original Message-----
rom: CWMHTours  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: gettysburg  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am
ubject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

steemed GDG Member  Contributes:
im.
Sir,
When you consider Lee as a general it  is helpful, if not  required, to 
emember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of  Warfare, which  are:
1.  Always strike with  overwhelming  force.....
If you remember those 2 maxims you can  start to  get a  handle on  R.E. 
ee.
He was a master of  those.
ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man.  The man was   briilliant.  If you 
ere in his shoes it would be hard to deviate  from his  actions, unless 
ou 
re a dumb guy,  which fortunately  we are  not.
Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men  between  them. With a 1000 miles 
etween them and Lee he did the  right  thing.
The fortress of Washington was  his  focus.  He  needed as mny people as 
ossible.  Because it  was a fortress he knew that  he could never 
uccessfully 
ttack  it.  He had to get the Northern forces  away from DC in order to  
ring overwhelming force on the  AoP.
If you go into Penn you  keep the Yanks off balance.  And  if you can, you 
ttack with  overwhelming force.
It's actually very simple to understand Lee in  that  light.
Do you like my new sign-off?  I don't know what  a  neo-anti unionst is but 
 like how it sounds.
A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
eter


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Message: 34
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:48:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
rom: recker at earthlink.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<7758272.1327438134655.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

t Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written test 
nd then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS, one from 
he guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a mentor who helps 
ou through a few other requirements. This part of it is somewhat different than 
ettysburg. The guide service is part of Western Maryland Interpretive 
ssociation, the park's non-profit. They have an arrangement with the NPS, 
hough because Antietam is not a National Military park like Gettysburg, their 
rrangement is probably slightly different. There is no internship, but you must 
ign up to be a volunteer to become a guide.
Stephen Recker

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If 
they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns 
before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg 
consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be 
interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like 
your style.



------------------------------
Message: 35
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:59:27 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <A47B8E5259D1469088BAAA02EE69EC87 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
   I've usually been fortunate in that I get a return call within a day or so - 
nd either I request a certain guide who I'm familiar with - or ask for one 
ho's specialty is specific to a certain interest. But that's me. In regards to 
our post, I totally agree, but I'm not sure they have the resources for that - 
.e. a specific scheduler type of person (I really don't know). Maybe Andy Ward 
ould answer that one? 
Regards,
om B.



----Original Message----- 
rom: Andy Mills 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:42 PM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ne thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line.  
lease don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I 
as one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass 
t over.  If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores, 
t becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space.  Added to this, 
t would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day 
ccordingly.  
I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people 
I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots 
re filled on a certain day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two 
o help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away 
usiness.  
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the 
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or 
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the 
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide 
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus 
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info). 
e make at least  2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour 
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually 
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with, 
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to 
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour 
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D. 
 Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses 
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do 
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list 
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to 
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site - 
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your 
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.

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-----------------------------
Message: 36
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:01:20 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3bd6.ab32c88.3c50761f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
George....

 love you Man....

ut I DO doubt it......

hink of the consequences for Lee.

efore capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He 
akes that army on the wrong side of the  river.

ook at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
hey lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
alling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
ccupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
n and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.

ee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.

nd, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
rong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
olitely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.  To 
e 
t makes no sense.

o I do doubt it.,

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To 
o that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long 
hey would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much time he 
ad before the AoP would have been  close.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
 where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
 Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
 in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
 is a fascinating  river.
 
 Thanks,
 Dave Gillespie
 Parsippany,  NJ
 
 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>  
> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
he
> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
> 
> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a huge
> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
> 
> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
> 
> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
umber of
> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as  
ell
> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
> 
> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river 
ut
> not infantry.
>  
> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
utting
> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
tories.
> 
> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.  
he
> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
anhatten I
> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
> 
> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
> 
> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).  
he
> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>  crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to 
ater level
> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts, and
> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
> 
> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
> 
> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>> sticking to  it.
> 
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
> Jeff:
> 
> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below  
ity
> Island across from the city?
> 
>  Thanks,
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>  From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
> To:  GDG
> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>  
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that 
s
>  because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
> flowed free.
> 
> 
>  Namaste
> 
> Jeff  Burk
> 
>  
>> ________________________________
>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>> 
>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side 
f
> the  river.
>>  Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>> capital and RR  center.
>>  
>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>> 
>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>>  
>> 
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using 
t
> to
>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is  
n
> the
>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
> from
>>  both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
he
> ANV
>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
ave
>  it.
>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
> bridges
>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another
>  until
>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
> later
>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
asily
>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone covered
> bridge
>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and  
he
> flames
>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>> 
>>  
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>>  Margaret
>> 
>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>> And
>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
ver
>> without a
>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
ire
>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>> Regards, Tom B.
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>> Dave,
>>  
>> Respectfully Sir,
>> 
>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>> 
>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about   destroying
>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
ggressive as
>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
ntietam,
>  
>> Gtysbg,
>> & Monocacy.
>>  
>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
eing a
>> balanced   combination.
>> 
>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>> 
>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>> 
>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
arhorse.
>> 
>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>  about
>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
is.
> And
>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
ver
>> without a
>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>> 
>>  Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
orces
>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>> 
>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>  Everything else was a subset.
>> 
>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
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>>   -to unsubscribe
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Message: 37
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:09:22 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <F4B4341981564564A4CC17A62BF3CB2A at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
   And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual 
ettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and 
olks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And 
ill be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human 
atabase (Antietam LBG).
Regards,
om B. (red in the face)



----Original Message----- 
rom: recker at earthlink.net
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:48 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
At Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written 
est and then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS, 
ne from the guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a 
entor who helps you through a few other requirements. This part of it is 
omewhat different than Gettysburg. The guide service is part of Western 
aryland Interpretive Association, the park's non-profit. They have an 
rrangement with the NPS, though because Antietam is not a National Military 
ark like Gettysburg, their arrangement is probably slightly different. 
here is no internship, but you must sign up to be a volunteer to become a 
uide.
Stephen Recker

----Original Message-----
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If
they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns
before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg
consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
your style.


----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
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-----------------------------
Message: 38
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:13:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
rom: recker at earthlink.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<18821141.1327439617943.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Tom,
No worries. Thanks for the kind words, and the plug! Glad to hear it is of use.
Ah yes, the human database. Love it!
Stephen Recker

----Original Message-----
From: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
   And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual 
Gettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and 
folks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And 
will be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human 
database (Antietam LBG).

Regards,
Tom B. (red in the face)


------------------------------
Message: 39
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:21:43 -0800
rom: Matt Diestel <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<CA+i57zY6xbUoJ+9szNxHneVyV9+e4t8vw7F_L6Lz+nP-MMffGQ at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes:


 In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders
 required him to cover Baltimore as well.

 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"

 George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums.
 Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed
 capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to cover
 Boston as well.

                With regards,
                   Chet

-----------------------------
Message: 40
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:09:49 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <C902CE62-5BE6-4D1C-B424-0E62D2588D41 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
	? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond 
ith his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told 
im that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad 
ridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). 
ee also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of 
he Susquehanna during this campaign.
	? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg 
n three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
	?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 
7, pt.3. p.914
	? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316.
	? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich 
ohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
	?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the 
usquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between 
arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
	? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose 
his objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to 
he Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around 
arlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
	? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but 
ill go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg 
obody Knows, pp 110-111.
	? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. 
e changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony 
icastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 
/27/6
	?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait 
or Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a 
ecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets 
epetitious. 
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is 
oubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the 
usquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.

Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George....
 
 I love you Man....
 
 But I DO doubt it......
 
 Think of the consequences for Lee.
 
 Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He 
 takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
 
 Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
 they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
 falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
 in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
 
 Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
 
 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.  To 
e 
 it makes no sense.
 
 So I do doubt it.,
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To 
 do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long 
 they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much time he 
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
> is a fascinating  river.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany,  NJ
> 
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>> 
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
 the
>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>> 
>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a huge
>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>> 
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>> 
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
 number of
>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as  
 well
>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>> 
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river 
 but
>> not infantry.
>> 
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
 putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
 stories.
>> 
>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.  
 The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
 Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>> 
>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>> 
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).  
 The
>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to 
 water level
>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts, and
>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>> 
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>> 
>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
 
>> sticking to  it.
>> 
>> 
>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>> 
>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below  
 City
>> Island across from the city?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To:  GDG
>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that 
 is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
>> flowed free.
>> 
>> 
>> Namaste
>> 
>> Jeff  Burk
>> 
>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>> 
>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side 
 of
>> the  river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>>> capital and RR  center.
>>> 
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using 
 it
>> to
>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is  
 on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
 the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
 save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>> bridges
>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't another
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
 easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and  
 the
>> flames
>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Margaret
>>> 
>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
 fire
>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>> 
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>> 
>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>> 
>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about   destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
 aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
 Antietam,
>> 
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>> 
>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
 being a
>>> balanced   combination.
>>> 
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>> 
>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>> 
>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
 Warhorse.
>>> 
>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
 his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>> 
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
 forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>> 
>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>> 
>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>>  -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>>  -to unsubscribe
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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------------------------------
Message: 41
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:14:57 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443297.76363.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it 
as built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in 
913.

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff:

Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City 
sland across from the city?? 

Thanks,

-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is 
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed 
ree. 


?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk


>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but 
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge 
>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the 
lames 
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 
>
>
>Regards, 
>
>
>Margaret 
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>> And 
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
>without a 
>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
>Regards, Tom B.? 
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>Dave, 
>
>Respectfully Sir, 
>
>I think we disagree,? sir. 
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
>Gtysbg, 
>& Monocacy. 
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
>balanced? combination. 
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 
>
>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
>without a 
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
>Everything else was a subset. 
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
>Peter? 
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>? -to unsubscribe 
>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives? 
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 42
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:18:46 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443526.39587.YahooMailNeo at web114607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
?Jackson used surprise to keeps the? Yanks off balance
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,
? You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so secretive 
e did not inform his staff as to his plans.

espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
 ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina

ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate
tates Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for
our long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of
enial.?

-----------------------------
Message: 43
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:23:23 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443803.4814.YahooMailNeo at web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer is 
hat on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the York 
aven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant.

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
Regards,
Jack

Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is 
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed 
ree. 
>
>
>?Namaste
>?
>Jeff Burk
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very 
>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>
>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.? 
>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
>>capital and RR center.
>>
>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>>
>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>Peter? 
>>
>>
>>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>
>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge 
>>>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the 
lames 
>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 
>>
>>
>>Regards, 
>>
>>
>>Margaret 
>>
>>----- Original? Message -----
>>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
>>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>>> And 
>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
>>without a 
>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
>>Regards, Tom B.? 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>Dave, 
>>
>>Respectfully Sir, 
>>
>>I think we disagree,? sir. 
>>
>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
>>Gtysbg, 
>>& Monocacy. 
>>
>>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
>>balanced? combination. 
>>
>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 
>>
>>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>>
>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
>>
>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
>>without a 
>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 
>>
>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 
>>
>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
>>Everything else was a subset. 
>>
>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
>>Peter? 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 44
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:25:03 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327443903.54227.YahooMailNeo at web114620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
From:?"CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o:?gettysburg at arthes.com?
ent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM
ubject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eorge....

hink of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact? artmy.? He?
akes that army on the wrong side of the? river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the? CW.? Before Ant.?
hey lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to? mention Jackson?
alling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian? church.
ccupying a city for ANY army is fraught with? danger.? You don't just go?
n and parade around.? You risk losing? control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a? city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being? on tne?
rong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the? Cumberlaand???
olitely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going? into Harrisburg.? To 
e?
t makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter??
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eter,
? I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on 
apturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the
usquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I think 
e planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw
anic throughout the North.?

espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
 ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina

ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, 
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who 
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 45
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:17 -0500
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <FEFBEAE4920643CBA8DA8EC90D4447FA at BIFF>
ontent-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

hen we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB 
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
	? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
	? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
	?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
	? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
	? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
	?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
	? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
	? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
	? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
	?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious. 
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.

Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George....
 
 I love you Man....
 
 But I DO doubt it......
 
 Think of the consequences for Lee.
 
 Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
 
 Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
 they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
 falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
 in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
 
 Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
 
 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.
o me 
 it makes no sense.
 
 So I do doubt it.,
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To 
 do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long
> they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
ime he 
 had before the AoP would have been  close.
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
> is a fascinating  river.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany,  NJ
> 
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>> 
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
 the
>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>> 
>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a
uge
>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>> 
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>> 
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
 number of
>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as  
 well
>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>> 
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river 
 but
>> not infantry.
>> 
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
 putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
 stories.
>> 
>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.  
 The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
 Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>> 
>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>> 
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
> The
>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to 
 water level
>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts,
nd
>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>> 
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>> 
>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
 
>> sticking to  it.
>> 
>> 
>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>> 
>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below  
 City
>> Island across from the city?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To:  GDG
>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that 
 is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
>> flowed free.
>> 
>> 
>> Namaste
>> 
>> Jeff  Burk
>> 
>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>> 
>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side 
 of
>> the  river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>>> capital and RR  center.
>>> 
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using
> it
>> to
>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is  
 on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
 the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
 save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>> bridges
>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't
nother
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
 easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone
overed
>> bridge
>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
> the
>> flames
>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Margaret
>>> 
>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
 fire
>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>> 
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>> 
>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>> 
>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
estroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
 aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
 Antietam,
>> 
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>> 
>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
 being a
>>> balanced   combination.
>>> 
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>> 
>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>> 
>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
 Warhorse.
>>> 
>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
 his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>> 
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
 forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>> 
>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>> 
>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 

---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
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>>> 
>>> 

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-----------------------------
Message: 46
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:40:19 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <66EA56B8-F7B0-40AD-A729-CC0FFB94CCFE at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a 
uge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the 
usquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take 
hat at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east 
f the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living 
ff the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and 
estroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the 
oP come after him fast and recklessly. 
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that 
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
 
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
 
 	? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
 
 	? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 	?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
 
 	? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.
 
 	? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
 
 	?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
 204
 
 	? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
 
 	? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 	? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 	?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
> 
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He
 
> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
> 
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.
 To me 
> it makes no sense.
> 
> So I do doubt it.,
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To 
> do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long
 
> they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
 time he 
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a fascinating  river.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>> 
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>>> 
>>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>> 
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
>>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
> number of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as  
> well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river 
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>> 
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
> stories.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.  
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>> 
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>>> 
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
 
> The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to 
> water level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts,
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>> 
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>> 
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
> 
>>> sticking to  it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>> 
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below  
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that 
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
>>> flowed free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff  Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side 
> of
>>> the  river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>> 
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using
 
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is  
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
 
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Margaret
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>> 
>>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
> Antietam,
>>> 
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
> being a
>>>> balanced   combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
> Warhorse.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>> 
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>>> 
>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>> 
>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>>> 
> 
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>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m  -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for   Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
> 
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-----------------------------
Message: 47
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:58:53 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D38E76AA609745D9BFB1CD063BF25BED at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
    Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005  - the 
rticle is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left under 
DF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and it is 
ritten by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/index.htm
Regards, Tom B.


-----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a 
uge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the 
usquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take 
hat at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east 
f the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living 
ff the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and 
estroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the 
oP come after him fast and recklessly. 
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that 
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
 
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
 
 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
 
 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
 204
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
> 
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He
 
> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
> 
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.
 To me 
> it makes no sense.
> 
> So I do doubt it.,
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To 
> do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long
 
> they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
 time he 
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a fascinating  river.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>> 
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>>> 
>>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>> 
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
>>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
> number of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as  
> well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river 
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>> 
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
> stories.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.  
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>> 
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>>> 
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
 
> The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to 
> water level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts,
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>> 
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>> 
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
> 
>>> sticking to  it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>> 
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below  
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that 
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
>>> flowed free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff  Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side 
> of
>>> the  river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>> 
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using
 
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is  
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
 
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Margaret
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>> 
>>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
> Antietam,
>>> 
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
> being a
>>>> balanced   combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
> Warhorse.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>> 
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>>> 
>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>> 
>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m  -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for   Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
> 
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Message: 48
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:05 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <b576.6a32b57a.3c50a1e5 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Well, George-

s usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little  battleship out 
f the water  (Oh the humanity!).

 CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq  R.  It's 
ompletely plausible.

ut I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending  
orrespondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture  Harrisburg".

 can't see him being fixated on it.

ome people in the GDG play the board game of Risk.  When  you advance to 
ake a "country" on the board you lose peices.  There is an  attrition level 
ssociated with any advancement going on.  Then you may  just have to have a 
attle to get into your goal.  So you lose more  pieces.  Then your enemy 
ounter-attacks and you have a big battle and then  you lose more pieces.  
nd if you don't have enough pieces after that  battle you lose the whole 
hing and there goes your advance and all the pieces  you invested in the 
ssault.  Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania.   An issue of overwhelming 
orce 
nd neither side had it so they chewed each other  up. 

o you play the game?  It is fabulous and if I ran West  Point or some 
ther miltary academy I would require   the  cadets to play the game all four 
ears.  It is so instructive.

 don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get  Hrsbg.  I see the Old 
ambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the  S and maybe have an 
dvantageous battle with the AoP.  Two maxims of  battle:  overwhelming force 
nd balance.

y threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and  advantage.  He 
ould knock the N off balance by threatening the  town.  As the Great Poker 
layer Lee's best asset was his focus on  manueverablity.

hat happens when that manueverability goes away?  That's  his best card.

icture the whole ANV in Hrsbg.  Half of his army is  either  drunk in the 
aloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with  the location of Camp 
urtain  there must have had a  bustling business.  The AoP occupations of 
rederick MD render interesting  witness to that.  Coddington goes into the 
roblem a bit.

nd let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have  been done 
n June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other  forces 
re brought in from around the country.  Part of Rosecrans's army  could have 
een sent by rail in a few days.  There were 30k men in DC and  5k in Balt.  
hrow those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from  forage, and ammo 
ould be running low.

nd for what?   Harrisburg?

t was a RR town and junction.  Miltary value.  A  supply base.  Military 
alue.  I think the Penn Central 4-track stone  arch bridge, N of town, was 
uilt by then.  Camp Curtain- a military  target.

ut risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east  protecting 
ichmond?

ee's supply lines were to the Cumberland.  If he takes  his whole army 
cross that massive river he's screwed.  

 can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to  take the town...

e wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian,  Darius Couch, 
tanton and Lincoln.  He wanted to get the AoP out in the  open and destroy it 
The enemy is there and we shall attack".

 think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out  and sent in 
nough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe  collect a 
ansom.  But,  think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town and 
ventually he is going to be  surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross 
he Susq R and get back to the  Cumberland.

'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that  lays the risk 
f Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a  Northern 
ity with no communications to the South.

an you give an argument or case stating how risking the  destruction of 
is army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital  city with mud 
treets full of yokels?

ike playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every  movement.  

OOTNOTE:  The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive  as all hell  ( 
orry Margaret  ;-{)).  4 tracks.  I think it  was in place pre-Civil War.  
E: the destruction of masonry bridges it is  very difficult.  Read Walker's 
fforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over  the Monocacy pre-Antietam.  I've 
een on it a 1000 times and can see  why.  I have sat-mapped the bridge a 
umber of times tracing the RR lines  being a train nut.  It's worth a look.

OOTNOTE:  I still think Jeff Davis had flies in  his eyes.

eorge-  do you like my new sign-off?

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John Walker, just up from 
ichmond with his two-brigade division,  reported to Lee at Frederick, he says 
ee told him that the Army was going to  Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania 
ailroad bridge, and then go to  Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. 
B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee,  Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on 
perating east of the Susquehanna  during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863,   June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
?  Lee to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? 
.R., 27,  pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon  Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 
16.
? June 28: Ewell  ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. 
ich Kohr,  Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, 
ross the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia.  James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 
04
? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He 
hose this objective  because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had 
dvanced to the  Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must 
e around Carlisle  or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
?  Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, 
ut  will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? 
ettysburg  Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous 
tterances. He changed his mind because of  a lack of cavalry to block the 
asses. 
ony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield 
uide class, 6/27/6
?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,  
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, 
n a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now  that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it 
ets  repetitious. 
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but  what you cannot 
o is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other  points east 
f the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.

egards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George....
  
 I love you Man....
 
 But I DO doubt it......
  
 Think of the consequences for Lee.
 
 Before capturing  a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  
e 
  takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
 
 Look at  the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 

 they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to   mention 
ackson 
 falling asleep during the sermon in the  Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught  with  danger.  You don't just 
o 
 in and parade  around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
 
  Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
  
 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being   on tne 
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in  the  Cumberlaand?  
 Politely, I would like to hear an  argument for Lee going  into 
arrisburg.  To me 
 it makes no  sense.
 
 So I do doubt it.,
 
 A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message  dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
  georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 There is absolutely no doubt that  Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. 
o 
 do that, he would have  to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How 
ong 
 they would  stay is another question and very  much depends on how much 
ime he  
 had before the AoP would have been  close.
 
  Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N     81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie   wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The  Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past  Harrisburg,
> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a  good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I  grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New  York,  where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
> is a  fascinating  river.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave  Gillespie
> Parsippany,  NJ
> 
> On Tue,  Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com>  wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>  Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>> 
>> The  Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 

 the
>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into  southern  NY  state.
>> 
>> Extremely  wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a  
uge
>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile   Island.
>> 
>> Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in  
ow
>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>  
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting  any  significant 
 number of
>> infantry east  of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as 
 
 well
>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to   Johnson's  Island.
>> 
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd  put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the 
iver 
  but
>> not infantry.
>> 
>> In  magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers  
 putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river  from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
 stories.
>>  
>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.   Interesting on  the East  Coast. 

 The
>>  Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived  in 
 Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep   knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>  
>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of  the C  Bay is  

>> crater from a meteor striking it  millions of years  ago.
>> 
>> The Conowingo  Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  
ere!).   
 The
>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are  killing the bay (I  need my
>> crabs!).  And more  frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   
o 
 water  level
>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares  experts, 
nd
>> costs me sleep at night  worrying  about it.
>> 
>> Cadmium, lead,  mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>> 
>>  That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I  am
 
>> sticking to  it.
>>  
>> 
>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>> Peter
>> 
>>  
>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>  
>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>  Jeff:
>> 
>> Out of  curiosity:  is the  dam in  which you refer, the one just below 

  City
>> Island across from the city?
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -----Original  Message-----
>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com   
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On  Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24,  2012 1:42 PM
>> To:  GDG
>> Subject:  Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Your  point  about the river being  shallow is true today.  However 
hat 
 is
>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the   
iver
>> flowed free.
>> 
>>  
>> Namaste
>> 
>> Jeff   Burk
>> 
>> 
>>>  ________________________________
>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> The river at that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts  
ut
>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>> 
>>> A smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
ide 
 of
>> the   river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being a   
tate
>>> capital and RR   center.
>>> 
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>  
>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>>  
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the  Confederates 
sing 
  it
>> to
>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is 

  on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled  the  Confederates to   attack the 
ity
>>  from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,  
 the
>>  ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried to 
 save
>>  it.
>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the  world but
>> bridges
>>>  were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't 
nother
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope  was to destroy sections so it  could  be   
ebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
  easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone 
overed
>>  bridge
>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge  in the world at  the time 
nd  
 the
>>  flames
>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only  the granite  supports.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Margaret
>>> 
>>> -----  Original  Message  -----
>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>> 
>>>  Esteemed  GDG Member    Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact,  if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of   
ig
>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going  to   knock the darn thing 
 over
>>> without  a
>>> whole lot  of valuable time and   trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
  fire
>>> (not the granite supports   of course),  by  Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom  B.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>  
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>  
>>> I think  we  disagree,   sir.
>>> 
>>> Where is it  written that  Lee disagreed  with Jackson about    
estroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about as  
 aggressive as
>>>  Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for   example, 
 Antietam,
>> 
>>>  Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>  
>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just  see  Lee & Jackson as 
 being a
>>>  balanced   combination.
>>> 
>>> By  the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>> 
>>> The  Hammer was   Jackson.
>>> 
>>> The Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
  Warhorse.
>>> 
>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being  
oncerned
>> about
>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
  his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of   
ig
>>>  granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn   
hing 
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>  
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.   Raids.  Move overwhelming  
 forces
>>> up  north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming  force.
>>> 
>>> The purpose of going   north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>  Everything else was a subset.
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>  Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
  
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------------------------------
Message: 49
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:00 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <000696B1B0E84B3C8714CADF48469D1E at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8;
reply-type=original
   Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same 
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.


----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.

egards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"



-----------------------------
Message: 50
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:45 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <b906.1cb51524.3c50a339 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard  George.  ;-{)

 wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into  Hrsbg.

 am starting to get afraid of you, sir.   ;-{)

 am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want  to make is that there 
s a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that  Lee SAID he hoped to 
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's  and Hill's. I think 
e should take that at face value.
As the most  audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big 
ne east of the  Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and 
as living off the  land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of 
ennsylvania and  destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box
s and to make the  AoP come after him fast and recklessly. 
But the 'how' of all this is  not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross 
hat river with at least most of his  army and capture Harrisburg. That's a  
act!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in  some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression  that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
ossession
 of some  common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
he
  way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
ushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good  idea.  Preferably cavalry.  
ut
 it made no sense for him to  get a slow moving force trapped on the East 
ide
 of the Susquehanna  until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail 
etween
 its legs.  (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
herever.)
  
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have  "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and  waited for 
he
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the  river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB 
 
  -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George  Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To:  GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from  my Gettysburg notes:
 
     ? During the Antietam  Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his  two-brigade division, reported to Lee at 
rederick,
 he says Lee told  him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania  railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
  Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on  
is
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this  campaign.
 
     ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June  28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
     ?  Lee to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.?  O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
 
     ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p..  316.
 
     ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross  the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG,  8/6/6
 
     ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28  were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. 
ill, p.
 204
  
     ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle,  vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the  SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the  vicinity of York, 
hey
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 
37.
 
     ? Lee:  ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but  will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.?  Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
     ? Lee was  going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances.  He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes.  Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
  Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
 
     ?  In  Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes,  wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
icastro,
  LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,  
/28/6
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources;  I have more but it
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You can moan,  you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
annot do
 is  doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east  
f
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
  26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01  PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you  Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
>  
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
>  Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   artmy. 
He
 
> takes that army on the wrong side of  the  river.
> 
> Look at the Confederate occupation  of Frederick in the  CW.  Before 
nt. 
> they lost a lot  of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention 
ackson 
>  falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
>  Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't  just 
o 
> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control  of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the  N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And, Sir, please tell  me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
> wrong side  of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand? 
 
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going   into 
arrisburg.
 To me 
> it makes no sense.
>  
> So I do doubt it.,
> 
> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
>  
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard  Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>  
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>  Peter,
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee   intended to capture Harrisburg. 
o 
> do that, he would have to move  infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How 
ong
 
> they  would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
  time he 
> had before the AoP would have been   close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
>  On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>  
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The  Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past  Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen  a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA  (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New   York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a  fascinating  river.
>> 
>>  Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,   NJ
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28  PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some  good issues.
>>> 
>>> The Susq R is an amazing  river basin and the largest water   source 
f 
>  the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into  southern  NY  state.
>>> 
>>>  Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there  is a
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some  30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>>  
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks  are  apparent in 
ow
>>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any  sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
> number  of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the  GTYSBG  campaign.  You might 
s  
>  well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to   Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz  Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the 
iver  
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>  
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories  of   loggers 
> putting
>>> log rafts a  good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing  
> stories.
>>> 
>>> The   Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East   
oast.  
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake  fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
> Manhatten  I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high 
ise.
>>> 
>>> If   you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is 
 a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years   ago.
>>> 
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix  
ere!).
 
>  The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing  the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more  frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   
o 
>  water level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy  metals,  which scares  experts,
 and
>>>  costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>>  
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty   scary.
>>> 
>>> That's my story, along with  the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>  
>>> sticking to  it.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>>  
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com  writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG   Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>  
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which  you refer, the one just 
elow  
> City
>>>  Island across from the city?
>>> 
>>>  Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:   gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of  Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42  PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river  being shallow is true today.  However 
hat 
>  is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.   during the  war  the  
iver
>>> flowed  free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff   Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>  ________________________________
>>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>>  Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river  at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts  
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A smart and   careful commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
ide 
> of
>>>  the  river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant   military goal other than being a   
tate
>>>>  capital and RR  center.
>>>> 
>>>>  Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river   there.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated  1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia  destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates 
sing
  
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross  over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg   
s  
> on
>>> the
>>>> east  and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the  
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee  initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
>  the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw  the   advantages to saving it and  tried 
o 
>  save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is   not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>>  bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with  that bridge out there  wasn't
 another
>>>  until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so  it  could  be  
ebuilt
>>>  later
>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that  sort of  precision  wasn't  
>  easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville   bridge was a  wood &  stone
 covered
>>>  bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such  bridge in the world at  the time 
nd
 
>  the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed  the wood, leaving  only the granite   supports.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Regards,
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Margaret
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original   Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January  23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>>  Esteemed  GDG Member    Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>>  in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made  of  
ig
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are  you going to   knock the darn 
hing 
>  over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot   of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed,  by 

> fire
>>>> (not the granite  supports   of course), by  Union  militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>  Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully  Sir,
>>>> 
>>>> I think  we   disagree,  sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is  it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
  destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think  Lee was  just about as  
> aggressive  as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your  opponent. for  example, 
> Antietam,
>>>  
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> &  Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as  
> being a
>>>> balanced    combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By the time of  2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer  was  Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The Anvil  was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old   
> Warhorse.
>>>> 
>>>> Also,  just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being  
oncerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying   the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 

> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of    
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going  to knock  the darn  
hing 
> over
>>>>  without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time  and  trouble?
>>>> 
>>>> Lee's 3  raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming   
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal  in    overwhelming force.
>>>>  
>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was   to  de-stabilizing the 
orth.
>>>> Everything else was  a subset.
>>>> 
>>>> A Loyal    Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
  
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>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>> 
> 
  
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>>>>  
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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------------------------------
Message: 51
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:34 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <C874ED9F0C9D4D5C862B6BD0A62B4B2D at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8;
reply-type=response
   Would have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness - 
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I 
eant to include you ;-D
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.


----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives 


-----------------------------
Message: 52
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:16:43 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <baa5.7edb6543.3c50a3eb at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Can you please forward an addendum to that for our  files?  Thank you.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:41:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
n an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I  believe his orders 
equired him to cover Baltimore as  well.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote:
>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Jack Lawrence Contributes:
> 
 
 
> As an  addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
>  their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw  the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the  hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge  out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
>  Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had  in
> piecemeal.
> 
> Regards,
>  
> Jack
> 
>   As an addendum to the  addendum --- the instructions given Meade was 
ot
> to only  intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same  
ime.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was  perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very  separate primary 
issions
> requiring the army to act in both an  offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.
  
                With  regards,
                   Chet
  
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------------------------------
Message: 53
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:19:42 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <565D0F01-BC13-476E-83BC-61551E368591 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the 
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link 
 but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - 
Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
 
 Regards, Tom B.
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
 To: 'GDG'
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
 
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
 
 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
 
 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
 204
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious.
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 
 
 
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Message: 54
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:20:21 +0000 (UTC)
rom: "Margaret D. Blough" <mdblough1 at comcast.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1786146023.433145.1327450821054.JavaMail.root at sz0190a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to 
ove when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and 
lready north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about 
arrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of 
ime, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the 
eaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the 
ail hub in Harrisburg. 

egards, 

argaret 
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same 
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
Regards, Tom B. 


----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM 
o: 'GDG' 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession 
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the 
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing 
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. 
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But 
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side 
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between 
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) 
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" 
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the 
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. 
Regards, 
TB 
-----Original Message----- 
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
n Behalf Of George Connell 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
eter, 
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: 
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up 
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, 
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his 
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. 
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. 
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture 
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
.. 316. 
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture 
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, 
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 
04 
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry 
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they 
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. 
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as 
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is 
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. 
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous 
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the 
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed 
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, 
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it 
ets repetitious. 
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do 
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of 
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. 

egards, 
George 
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W" 


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nsubscribe 
ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives 

-----------------------------
Message: 55
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:19 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <be87.29d0dcca.3c50a5b3 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ould have typed it out - but for the  sake of clarity and timeliness - 
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2  fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I 
eant to include you  ;-D
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message-----  
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o:  GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts  on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was  Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the  PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.


----Original  Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26  PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of  months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that  Lee, being in 
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps,  was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was  to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East 
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives  

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-----------------------------
Message: 56
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:30 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D6E4BB3C7ADE4F659B7B4DD09F296CE3 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252;
reply-type=original
  Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on 
t - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are 
riceless - stumbled upon this while searching for something else - I 
ctually have the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is 
heaper ;-D , and better.
egards,
om B.

-----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the 
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same 
 link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On 
 Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._

 Regards, Tom B.




 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
 To: 'GDG'
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
 possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
 the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.

 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East 
 side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail 
 between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
 wherever.)

 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for 
 the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.

 Regards,

 TB

 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,

 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:

 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on 
 his
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.

 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.

 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914

 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.

 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6

 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, 
 p.
 204

 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 
 137.

 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.

 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6

 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
 Nicastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 
 6/28/6

 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious.

 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot 
 do
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.


 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"




 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
  -to unsubscribe
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------------------------------
Message: 57
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:25:47 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <39563785-FB3D-4D2E-A2F9-CF0D6F95B084 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Peter,
You start off OK, but before you know you're back in that hole again, digging, 
igging, and digging. Put down the shovel and accept that Lee hoped to have at 
east two of his corps east of the Susquehanna. He said so! We don't know for 
ow long or what would come next, but's a fact.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Well, George-
 
 As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little  battleship out 
 of the water  (Oh the humanity!).
 
 I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq  R.  It's 
 completely plausible.
 
 But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending  
 correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture  
arrisburg".
 
 I can't see him being fixated on it.
 
 Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk.  When  you advance to 
 take a "country" on the board you lose peices.  There is an  attrition level 
 associated with any advancement going on.  Then you may  just have to have a 
 battle to get into your goal.  So you lose more  pieces.  Then your enemy 
 counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then  you lose more pieces.  
 And if you don't have enough pieces after that  battle you lose the whole 
 thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces  you invested in the 
 assault.  Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania.   An issue of overwhelming 
orce 
 and neither side had it so they chewed each other  up. 
 
 Do you play the game?  It is fabulous and if I ran West  Point or some 
 other miltary academy I would require   the  cadets to play the game all four 
 years.  It is so instructive.
 
 I don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get  Hrsbg.  I see the Old 
 Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the  S and maybe have an 
 advantageous battle with the AoP.  Two maxims of  battle:  overwhelming force 
 and balance.
 
 By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and  advantage.  He 
 could knock the N off balance by threatening the  town.  As the Great Poker 
 Player Lee's best asset was his focus on  manueverablity.
 
 What happens when that manueverability goes away?  That's  his best card.
 
 Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg.  Half of his army is  either  drunk in the 
 saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with  the location of Camp 
 Curtain  there must have had a  bustling business.  The AoP occupations of 
 Frederick MD render interesting  witness to that.  Coddington goes into the 
 problem a bit.
 
 And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have  been done 
 in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other  forces 
 are brought in from around the country.  Part of Rosecrans's army  could have 
 been sent by rail in a few days.  There were 30k men in DC and  5k in Balt.  
 Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from  forage, and ammo 
 would be running low.
 
 And for what?   Harrisburg?
 
 It was a RR town and junction.  Miltary value.  A  supply base.  Military 
 value.  I think the Penn Central 4-track stone  arch bridge, N of town, was 
 built by then.  Camp Curtain- a military  target.
 
 But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east  protecting 
 Richmond?
 
 Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland.  If he takes  his whole army 
 across that massive river he's screwed.  
 
 I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to  take the town...
 
 He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian,  Darius Couch, 
 Stanton and Lincoln.  He wanted to get the AoP out in the  open and destroy it 
> "The enemy is there and we shall attack".
 
 I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out  and sent in 
 enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe  collect a 
 ransom.  But,  think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town 
nd 
 eventually he is going to be  surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross 
 the Susq R and get back to the  Cumberland.
 
 I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that  lays the risk 
 of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a  Northern 
 city with no communications to the South.
 
 Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the  destruction of 
 his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital  city with mud 
 streets full of yokels?
 
 Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every  movement.  
 
 FOOTNOTE:  The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive  as all hell  ( 
 Sorry Margaret  ;-{)).  4 tracks.  I think it  was in place pre-Civil War.  
 RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it is  very difficult.  Read Walker's 
 efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over  the Monocacy pre-Antietam.  I've 
 been on it a 1000 times and can see  why.  I have sat-mapped the bridge a 
 number of times tracing the RR lines  being a train nut.  It's worth a look.
 
 FOOTNOTE:  I still think Jeff Davis had flies in  his eyes.
 
 George-  do you like my new sign-off?
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg notes:
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John Walker, just up from 
 Richmond with his two-brigade division,  reported to Lee at Frederick, he says 
> Lee told him that the Army was going to  Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania 
 railroad bridge, and then go to  Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. 
 (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee,  Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on 
 operating east of the Susquehanna  during this campaign.
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863,   June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 ?  Lee to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? 
 O.R., 27,  pt.3. p.914
 
 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon  Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 
 316.
 
 ? June 28: Ewell  ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. 
 Rich Kohr,  Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
 
 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, 
 cross the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia.  James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 
04
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He 
 chose this objective  because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had 
 advanced to the  Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must 
 be around Carlisle  or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
 
 ?  Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, 
 but  will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? 
 Gettysburg  Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous 
 utterances. He changed his mind because of  a lack of cavalry to block the 
asses. 
 Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield 
 Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,  
 wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, 
 in a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
 
 Now  that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it 
 gets  repetitious. 
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but  what you cannot 
 do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other  points east 
 of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
> 
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
> Before capturing  a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  
 He 
> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
> 
> Look at  the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
 
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to   mention 
 Jackson 
> falling asleep during the sermon in the  Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught  with  danger.  You don't just 
 go 
> in and parade  around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being   on tne 
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in  the  Cumberlaand?  
> Politely, I would like to hear an  argument for Lee going  into 
 Harrisburg.  To me 
> it makes no  sense.
> 
> So I do doubt it.,
> 
> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that  Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. 
 To 
> do that, he would have  to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How 
 long 
> they would  stay is another question and very  much depends on how much 
 time he  
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N     81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie   wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The  Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past  Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a  good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I  grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New  York,  where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a  fascinating  river.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Dave  Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>> 
>> On Tue,  Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com>  wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
 
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into  southern  NY  state.
>>> 
>>> Extremely  wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a  
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>> 
>>> Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in  
 low
>>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting  any  significant 
> number of
>>> infantry east  of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as 
 
> well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to   Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd  put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the 
 river 
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>> 
>>> In  magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers  
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river  from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
> stories.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.   Interesting on  the East  Coast. 
 
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived  in 
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep   knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>> 
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of  the C  Bay is  
 a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it  millions of years  ago.
>>> 
>>> The Conowingo  Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  
 here!).   
> The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are  killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more  frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   
 to 
> water  level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares  experts, 
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night  worrying  about it.
>>> 
>>> Cadmium, lead,  mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>> 
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I  am
> 
>>> sticking to  it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>> 
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the  dam in  which you refer, the one just below 
 
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com   
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On  Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24,  2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being  shallow is true today.  However 
 that 
> is
>>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the   
 river
>>> flowed free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff   Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts  
 but
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
 side 
> of
>>> the   river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being a   
 state
>>>> capital and RR   center.
>>>> 
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the  Confederates 
 using 
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is 
 
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled  the  Confederates to   attack the 
 city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,  
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried to 
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't 
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope  was to destroy sections so it  could  be   
 rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone 
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge  in the world at  the time 
 and  
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only  the granite  supports.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Margaret
>>>> 
>>>> -----  Original  Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member    Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact,  if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of   
 big
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going  to   knock the darn thing 
> over
>>>> without  a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and   trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of course),  by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom  B.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>> 
>>>> I think  we  disagree,   sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is it  written that  Lee disagreed  with Jackson about    
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about as  
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for   example, 
> Antietam,
>>> 
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just  see  Lee & Jackson as 
> being a
>>>> balanced   combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By  the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer was   Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
> Warhorse.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being  
 concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of   
 big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn   
 thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>> 
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.   Raids.  Move overwhelming  
> forces
>>>> up  north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming  force.
>>>> 
>>>> The purpose of going   north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for     Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m  -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for    Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>>  -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>> 
>>> 
> 
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-----------------------------
Message: 58
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:28 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <c061.b4987fe.3c50a66f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey Tom-

on't worry about it.

y cat types with one paw.

e's a good little cat.  I just wish he would display  some kind of respect 
or me.  I have never seen it yet tho.  Before I  feed him he shows a lot 
f love then after I feed him it is back to  disrespect.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ould have typed it out - but for the  sake of clarity and timeliness - 
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2  fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I 
eant to include you  ;-D
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message-----  
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o:  GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts  on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was  Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the  PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.


----Original  Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26  PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of  months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that  Lee, being in 
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps,  was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was  to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East 
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives  

---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives


-----------------------------
Message: 59
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:41 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2531AB69-8016-40C0-8231-F333F43FB036 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place 
or it.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard  George.  ;-{)
 
 I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into  Hrsbg.
 
 I am starting to get afraid of you, sir.   ;-{)
 
 I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Timing is obviously important, but the point I want  to make is that there 
 is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that  Lee SAID he hoped to 
 cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's  and Hill's. I think 
 we should take that at face value.
 
 As the most  audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big 
 one east of the  Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and 
 was living off the  land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of 
 Pennsylvania and  destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box
 es and to make the  AoP come after him fast and recklessly. 
 
 But the 'how' of all this is  not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross 
 that river with at least most of his  army and capture Harrisburg. That's a  
 fact!
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> When we discussed this in  some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression  that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
 possession
> of some  common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
 the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
 rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.  
> 
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good  idea.  Preferably cavalry.  
 But
> it made no sense for him to  get a slow moving force trapped on the East 
 side
> of the Susquehanna  until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail 
 between
> its legs.  (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
 wherever.)
> 
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have  "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and  waited for 
 the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the  river.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> TB 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George  Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To:  GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> Some relevant items from  my Gettysburg notes:
> 
>    ? During the Antietam  Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his  two-brigade division, reported to Lee at 
 Frederick,
> he says Lee told  him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania  railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on  
 his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this  campaign.
> 
>    ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June  28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
> 
>    ?  Lee to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.?  O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
> 
>    ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p..  316.
> 
>    ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross  the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG,  8/6/6
> 
>    ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28  were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between Harrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. 
 Hill, p.
> 204
> 
>    ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle,  vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the  SOuthern infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the  vicinity of York, 
 they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 
 137.
> 
>    ? Lee:  ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but  will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.?  Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
> 
>    ? Lee was  going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances.  He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes.  Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
> 
>    ?  In  Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes,  wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
 Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,  
 6/28/6
> 
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources;  I have more but it
> gets repetitious. 
> 
> You can moan,  you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
 cannot do
> is  doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east  
 of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01  PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> George....
>> 
>> I love you  Man....
>> 
>> But I DO doubt it......
>> 
>> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>> 
>> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   artmy. 
 He
> 
>> takes that army on the wrong side of  the  river.
>> 
>> Look at the Confederate occupation  of Frederick in the  CW.  Before 
 Ant. 
>> they lost a lot  of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention 
 Jackson 
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
>> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't  just 
 go 
>> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control  of yo0ur army.
>> 
>> Lee was in the N only to threaten the  N, not to capture a  city.
>> 
>> And, Sir, please tell  me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
>> wrong side  of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand? 
 
>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going   into 
 Harrisburg.
> To me 
>> it makes no sense.
>> 
>> So I do doubt it.,
>> 
>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter  
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard  Time,  
>> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>> 
>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>> Peter,
>> 
>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee   intended to capture Harrisburg. 
 To 
>> do that, he would have to move  infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How 
 long
> 
>> they  would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
> time he 
>> had before the AoP would have been   close.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> George
>> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
>> 
>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The  Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past  Harrisburg,
>>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen  a good deal of the
>>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA  (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>>> in South Central New   York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>>> is a  fascinating  river.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dave Gillespie
>>> Parsippany,   NJ
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28  PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some  good issues.
>>>> 
>>>> The Susq R is an amazing  river basin and the largest water   source 
 of 
>> the
>>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into  southern  NY  state.
>>>> 
>>>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there  is a
> huge
>>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some  30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>>> 
>>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks  are  apparent in 
 low
>>>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>>> 
>>>> I cannot imagine any  sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
>> number  of
>>>> infantry east of  the river during the  GTYSBG  campaign.  You might 
 as  
>> well
>>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to   Johnson's  Island.
>>>> 
>>>> If I wuz  Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the 
 river  
>> but
>>>> not infantry.
>>>> 
>>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories  of   loggers 
>> putting
>>>> log rafts a  good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing  
>> stories.
>>>> 
>>>> The   Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East   
 Coast.  
>> The
>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake  fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
>> Manhatten  I
>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high 
 rise.
>>>> 
>>>> If   you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is 
  a
>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years   ago.
>>>> 
>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix  
 here!).
> 
>> The
>>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing  the bay (I  need my
>>>> crabs!).  And more  frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   
 to 
>> water level
>>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy  metals,  which scares  experts,
> and
>>>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>>> 
>>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty   scary.
>>>> 
>>>> That's my story, along with  the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>> 
>>>> sticking to  it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
>>>> amills at jplcreative.com  writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG   Member Contributes:
>>>> Jeff:
>>>> 
>>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which  you refer, the one just 
 below  
>> City
>>>> Island across from the city?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>> From:   gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
>> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>>> On Behalf  Of  Jeff  Burk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42  PM
>>>> To:  GDG
>>>> Subject:  Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>>>> Your  point  about the river  being shallow is true today.  However 
 that 
>> is
>>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.   during the  war  the  
 river
>>>> flowed  free.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Namaste
>>>> 
>>>> Jeff   Burk
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>> 
>>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>> The river  at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts  
 but
>>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A smart and   careful commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
 side 
>> of
>>>> the  river.
>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant   military goal other than being a   
 state
>>>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river   there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In a message dated  1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>> Tom-The  militia  destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates 
 using
> 
>> it
>>>> to
>>>>> cross  over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg   
 is  
>> on
>>>> the
>>>>> east  and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the  
 city
>>>> from
>>>>> both sides. While Lee  initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
>> the
>>>> ANV
>>>>> generals on the scene saw  the   advantages to saving it and  tried 
 to 
>> save
>>>> it.
>>>>> The Susquehanna is   not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>>> bridges
>>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with  that bridge out there  wasn't
> another
>>>> until
>>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so  it  could  be  
 rebuilt
>>>> later
>>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that  sort of  precision  wasn't  
>> easily
>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville   bridge was a  wood &  stone
> covered
>>>> bridge
>>>>> believed to  be the  longest such  bridge in the world at  the time 
 and
> 
>> the
>>>> flames
>>>>> that  destroyed  the wood, leaving  only the granite   supports.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Margaret
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original   Message  -----
>>>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January  23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>> 
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member    Contributes:
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made  of  
 big
>>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are  you going to   knock the darn 
 thing 
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot   of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed,  by 
 
>> fire
>>>>> (not the granite  supports   of course), by  Union  militia.
>>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>>> 
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Respectfully  Sir,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think  we   disagree,  sir.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where is  it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
> destroying
>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think  Lee was  just about as  
>> aggressive  as
>>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your  opponent. for  example, 
>> Antietam,
>>>> 
>>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>> &  Monocacy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as  
>> being a
>>>>> balanced    combination.
>>>>> 
>>>>> By the time of  2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The  Hammer  was  Jackson.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Anvil  was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old   
>> Warhorse.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also,  just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being  
 concerned
>>>> about
>>>>> destroying   the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
 
>> his.
>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if  you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of    
 big
>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going  to knock  the darn  
 thing 
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time  and  trouble?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lee's 3  raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming   
>> forces
>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal  in    overwhelming force.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was   to  de-stabilizing the 
 North.
>>>>> Everything else was  a subset.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A Loyal    Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
> 
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>>>> m
>>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>> 
>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
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Message: 60
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:29:35 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <c1cf.62707c24.3c50a6ef at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thank you Margaret-

ould you mind telling George that you are on my side of the  matter?

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:20:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
om-The Second Corps was just across the river from  Harrisburg and prepared
to move when Lee called it back after learning that  the AOP was on the 
ove and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee  was quite serious 
bout Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for  any 
ignificant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew  Curtin 
f PA 
as one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the  President) and 
o damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg. 

egards,  

argaret 
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>  
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM 
ubject: Re: GDG-  ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
orry, more  specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same 
ink - but  the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On 
g. 
03 -  "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
Regards, Tom B.  


----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett 
ent:  Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM 
o: 'GDG' 
ubject: Re: GDG-  ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
When we  discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
ith the  impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
ossession 
f  some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
he  
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing  
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. 
Sending  a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But 
t made  no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East 
ide 
f  the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail 
etween  
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or  
herever.) 
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would  have "sacked" 
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and  waited for 
he 
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the  river. 
Regards, 
TB 
-----Original Message-----  
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]  
n Behalf Of George Connell 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM  
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes: 
eter, 
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg  notes: 
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just  up 
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at  Frederick, 
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg,  destroy the 
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia,  Baltimore, or 
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II,  pp. 360-1 for on 
is 
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during  this campaign. 
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope  we may be in 
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  pp.76-77. 
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means,  capture 
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
? ..."orders were...issued to  move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
.. 316. 
? June 28: Ewell  ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture 
arrisburg. Rich Kohr,  Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow  in trace of Early, 
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and  seize the railroad 
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson,  General A. P. Hill, 
. 
04 
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column  for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
e chose this objective because he reasoned  that if the SOuthern infantry 
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not  in the vicinity of York, they 
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg."  Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 
37. 
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we  will not move to Harrisburg as 
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg  and see what General Meade is 
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.  
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous  
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the  
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed  
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would  dig in at Cashtown, block the 
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for  Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
icastro, 
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg  Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 
/28/6 
Now that's ten citations from  eight respected sources; I have more but it 
ets repetitious. 
You  can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot 
o  
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of  
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.  

egards, 
George 
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"  


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Message: 61
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <c303.4e536815.3c50a779 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
George!

here's still dirt down here! 

 have to get it out!

 have to.

 am making proigress,  I can't stop now. 

 just have to keep digging deeper and then everything will be  OK

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:26:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
You start off OK, but before you know  you're back in that hole again, 
igging, digging, and digging. Put down the  shovel and accept that Lee hoped to 
have at least two of his corps east of the  Susquehanna. He said so! We 
on't know for how long or what would come next,  but's a fact.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Well,  George-
 
 As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my  little  battleship 
ut 
 of the water  (Oh the  humanity!).
 
 I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across  the Susq  R.  It's 
 completely plausible.
 
  But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending  
  correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture   
arrisburg".
 
 I can't see him being fixated on it.
  
 Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk.  When   you advance 
o 
 take a "country" on the board you lose peices.   There is an  attrition 
evel 
 associated with any advancement  going on.  Then you may  just have to 
ave a 
 battle to get  into your goal.  So you lose more  pieces.  Then your 
nemy  
 counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then  you lose  more 
ieces.  
 And if you don't have enough pieces after  that  battle you lose the 
hole 
 thing and there goes your  advance and all the pieces  you invested in 
he 
 assault.   Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania.   An issue of 
verwhelming  force 
 and neither side had it so they chewed each other  up.  
 
 Do you play the game?  It is fabulous and if I ran  West  Point or some 
 other miltary academy I would  require   the  cadets to play the game all 
our 
  years.  It is so instructive.
 
 I don't think Lee was  sitting around itching to get  Hrsbg.  I see the 
ld 
  Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the  S and maybe have  
n 
 advantageous battle with the AoP.  Two maxims of   battle:  overwhelming 
orce 
 and balance.
 
 By  threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and   advantage. 
He 
 could knock the N off balance by threatening  the  town.  As the Great 
oker 
 Player Lee's best asset was  his focus on  manueverablity.
 
 What happens when that  manueverability goes away?  That's  his best card.
 
  Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg.  Half of his army is  either   drunk in 
he 
 saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which  with  the location of 
amp 
 Curtain  there must have had  a  bustling business.  The AoP occupations 
f 
 Frederick MD  render interesting  witness to that.  Coddington goes into 
he  
 problem a bit.
 
 And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg-  and clearly that could have  been 
one 
 in June easily then the  AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other  
orces 
 are brought  in from around the country.  Part of Rosecrans's army  could 
ave  
 been sent by rail in a few days.  There were 30k men in DC  and  5k in 
alt.  
 Throw those in and Lee would be  surrounded, cut off from  forage, and 
mmo 
 would be running  low.
 
 And for what?   Harrisburg?
 
  It was a RR town and junction.  Miltary value.  A  supply  base.  
ilitary 
 value.  I think the Penn Central 4-track  stone  arch bridge, N of town, 
as 
 built by then.  Camp  Curtain- a military  target.
 
 But risk losing your army-  ONLY army of the Conf in the east  protecting 
 Richmond?
  
 Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland.  If he takes   his whole army 
 across that massive river he's screwed.  
  
 I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to  take the  town...
 
 He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew  Curtian,  Darius Couch, 
 Stanton and Lincoln.  He wanted to  get the AoP out in the  open and 
estroy it 
 "The enemy is there  and we shall attack".
 
 I think he would have bordered the  town, scared the Yanks out  and sent 
n 
 enough troops to destroy  anything of military value and maybe  collect a 
 ransom.   But,  think about it George, his army starts falling apart in 
own and  
 eventually he is going to be  surrounded by the Yanks with no  way to 
ross 
 the Susq R and get back to the  Cumberland.
  
 I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that  lays  the 
isk 
 of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and  surrounded in a  
orthern 
 city with no communications to the  South.
 
 Can you give an argument or case stating how risking  the  destruction of 
 his army was worth the occupation of some  little dinky capital  city 
ith mud 
 streets full of  yokels?
 
 Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to  every  movement.  
 
 FOOTNOTE:  The RR bridge  over the Susq R is just massive  as all hell  ( 
 Sorry  Margaret  ;-{)).  4 tracks.  I think it  was in place  pre-Civil 
ar.  
 RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it  is  very difficult.  Read 
alker's 
 efforts to destroy the  C&O viaduct over  the Monocacy pre-Antietam.  
've 
 been  on it a 1000 times and can see  why.  I have sat-mapped the bridge 
  
 number of times tracing the RR lines  being a train nut.   It's worth a 
ook.
 
 FOOTNOTE:  I still think Jeff Davis  had flies in  his eyes.
 
 George-  do you like my new  sign-off?
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
  Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19  P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com  writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
  Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg  notes:
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John  Walker, just up from 
 Richmond with his two-brigade division,   reported to Lee at Frederick, 
e says 
 Lee told him that the Army was  going to  Harrisburg, destroy the 
ennsylvania 
 railroad bridge,  and then go to  Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. 
  (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee,  Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his  
houghts on 
 operating east of the Susquehanna  during this  campaign.
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863,   June  28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
 Harrisburg in three days..."  Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 ?  Lee  to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? 

 O.R., 27,  pt.3. p.914
 
 ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon  Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
.. 
  316.
 
 ? June 28: Ewell  ordered Rhodes to cross the river  and capture 
arrisburg. 
 Rich Kohr,  Gettysburg LBG,  8/6/6
 
 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to  follow in trace of Early, 
 cross the Susquehanna downstream  from  Harrisburg, and seize the 
ailroad 
 between Harrisburg and  Philadelphia.  James Robertson, General A. P. 
ill, p. 204
  
 ? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis  Dillsburg. He 
 chose this objective  because he reasoned that if  the SOuthern infantry 
ad 
 advanced to the  Susquehanna and were  not in the vicinity of York, they 
ust 
 be around Carlisle  or  Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
 
 ?  Lee:  ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as 
xpected, 
  but  will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?  
 Gettysburg  Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 ? Lee was  going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous 
  utterances. He changed his mind because of  a lack of cavalry to block  
he passes. 
 Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg  Licensed Battlefield 
 Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 ?  In  Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
asses,   
 wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,  
GB, 
 in a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide  class, 6/28/6
 
 Now  that's ten citations from eight  respected sources; I have more but 
t 
 gets  repetitious.  
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate,  but  what you 
annot 
 do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to  Harrisburg (and other  points 
ast 
 of the Susquehanna)--and he  was taking a lot of infantry with  him.
 
 
  Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N     81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM,  CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you  Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
>  
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
>  Before capturing  a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   
rtmy.  
 He 
> takes that army on the wrong side of  the  river.
> 
> Look at  the Confederate  occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before 
nt. 
  
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not  to   mention 
 Jackson 
> falling asleep during the  sermon in the  Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city  for ANY army is fraught  with  danger.  You don't just 
  go 
> in and parade  around.  You risk losing   control of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to  threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And,  Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being   on tne 

> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in   the  
umberlaand?  
> Politely, I would like to hear  an  argument for Lee going  into 
 Harrisburg.  To me  
> it makes no  sense.
> 
> So I do doubt  it.,
> 
> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a  message  dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,   
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
>  Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
> Peter,
>  
> There is absolutely no doubt that  Lee  intended to  capture Harrisburg. 
 To 
> do that, he would have  to  move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How 
 long 
>  they would  stay is another question and very  much depends on how  
uch 
 time he  
> had before the AoP would have  been  close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  George
> 26?11'56"N     81?48'19W"
>  
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie    wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> The  Susquehanna  River is extremely  low once it gets past  Harrisburg,
>> where it is also   very low.  I have seen a  good deal of the
>>  Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I  grew up in Carlisle, PA)  
nd
>> in South Central New  York,  where it is much  deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a  fascinating   river.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Dave   Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>>  
>> On Tue,  Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,    <CWMHTours at aol.com>  wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good  issues.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq R is an  amazing river basin and the largest water   source 
f 
  
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up  into  southern  NY  state.
>>>  
>>> Extremely  wide.  Just north of  the state  border with MD  there is a 

 huge
>>> dam,  the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3  Mile   
sland.
>>> 
>>>  Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are   apparent 
n  
 low
>>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any  sane Conf  commander putting  any  significant 
>  number of
>>> infantry east  of  the river during  the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might 
s 
 
>  well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to    Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz  Ewell I'd  put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the  
 river 
> but
>>> not  infantry.
>>> 
>>> In  magazines like  American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
 
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the  river  from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
>  stories.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq  R is an  earthquake fault.   Interesting on  the East  
oast.  
 
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake  fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived  in 
>  Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep   knowing  that.  And certainly in a high 
ise.
>>>  
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half  of  the C  Bay 
s  
 a
>>> crater from a  meteor striking it  millions of years  ago.
>>>  
>>> The Conowingo  Dam basin is an environmental   issue (No politix  
 here!).   
>  The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are   killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And  more  frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   

 to 
> water  level
>>> with  silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares   
xperts, 
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night   worrying  about it.
>>> 
>>> Cadmium,  lead,  mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>>  
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in  Wrightsville and  I  am
> 
>>> sticking  to  it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  A  Loyal Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>>  Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a  message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern  Standard  Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>  
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>  
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the  dam in   which you refer, the one just 
elow 
 
>  City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>  
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>>  -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:   gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com   
>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On   Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January  24,  2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>>  Subject:  Re:  GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>  
>>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river  being  shallow is true today.  However 
 that 
>  is
>>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.   during the  war  the   
 river
>>>  flowed free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff    Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>  ________________________________
>>>> From:     "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent:  Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>  
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member   Contributes:
>>>> The river at that  point is  frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts 

  but
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle.  Very   rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A  smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more   than    
n
>>>> expeditionary force that could  have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
 side 
>  of
>>> the   river.
>>>>  Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being  a   
 state
>>>> capital and  RR   center.
>>>> 
>>>> Thre  are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river   
here.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti   Unionist,
>>>>  Peter
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49   A.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>  mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>>  
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member   Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it  in order to  keep the  Confederates 
 using 
>  it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the  eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  
s 
  
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this  would have enabled  the  Confederates to   attack the  
 city
>>> from
>>>> both sides.  While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction, 
 
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on  the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried 
o  
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The  Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the   world 
ut
>>> bridges
>>>> were   needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't  
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg.  The hope  was to destroy sections so it  could  be    
 rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in  the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision   wasn't 

> easily
>>>> obtained. The  Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone  
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed  to  be the  longest such bridge  in the world at  the time  
 and  
> the
>>>  flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving   only  the granite  supports.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Regards,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Margaret
>>>>  
>>>> -----  Original  Message   -----
>>>> From: "Tom"     <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent:  Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>  
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member     Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>>  in fact,  if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS  still made of 
 
 big
>>>> granite   blocks. Now just how are you going  to   knock the darn 
hing  
> over
>>>> without   a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and    trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by 

>  fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of  course),  by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards,  Tom  B.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original   Message-----
>>>> From:    CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012   9:28  PM
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:   GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>>  
>>>> Esteemed GDG   Member   Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>  
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>  
>>>> I think  we  disagree,    sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is it   written that  Lee disagreed  with Jackson about     
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North?  I  think Lee  was  just about as  
> aggressive  as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your  opponent. for   example, 
> Antietam,
>>>  
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> &  Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just  see  Lee & Jackson as  
> being a
>>>> balanced    combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By  the  time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the    Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer  was   Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the  Old  
> Warhorse.
>>>>  
>>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't   recall reference to Lee being  
 concerned
>>>  about
>>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over  the Susq. R.  being a big concern 
f 
>  his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you   think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of   

 big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are  you going to knock  the darn   
 thing 
>  over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole   lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>>  
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.    Raids.  Move overwhelming  
>  forces
>>>> up  north and attack piecemeal in   overwhelming  force.
>>>>  
>>>> The purpose of going   north for Lee  was  to  de-stabilizing the 
orth.
>>>>  Everything else was a subset.
>>>> 
>>>>  A  Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>  Peter
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
> 
  
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>>  m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for     Archives
>>>> 
> 
  ---
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>>>  m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
> 
  
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>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>> 
> 
  
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------------------------------
Message: 62
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:32:16 -0500
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <07806C821B26439E89206B34DFD26EAA at BIFF>
ontent-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

his is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a
erious read as opposed to a quick scan.  But thank!
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
   Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005  -
he article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left
nder PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and
t is written by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/
ndex.htm
Regards, Tom B.


-----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is
 huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
e should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one
ast of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was
iving off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
ennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political
oxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly. 
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
 
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,
 
 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
 
 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
 
 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
 
 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
.
 204
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
 
 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
 
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
> 
> I love you Man....
> 
> But I DO doubt it......
> 
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
> 
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.
e
 
> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
> 
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go
>> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
> 
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
> 
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into
arrisburg.
 To me 
> it makes no sense.
> 
> So I do doubt it.,
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
 
> they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
 time he 
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
> 
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a fascinating  river.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>> 
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of 
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>>> 
>>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>> 
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in
ow
>>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>> 
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant 
> number of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as
>> well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>>> 
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river
>> but
>>> not infantry.
>>> 
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers 
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing 
> stories.
>>> 
>>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.
>> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in 
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>> 
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is

>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>>> 
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
 
> The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to
>> water level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts,
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>> 
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>> 
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
> 
>>> sticking to  it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>> 
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>> 
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that
>> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the
iver
>>> flowed free.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff  Burk
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>>> 
>>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side
>> of
>>> the  river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a
tate
>>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>> 
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>> 
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates
sing
 
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
>> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,  
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to 
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't  
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
 
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Margaret
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by  
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>> 
>>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>>> 
>>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as  
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example, 
> Antietam,
>>> 
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>> 
>>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as 
> being a
>>>> balanced   combination.
>>>> 
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>>> 
>>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>>> 
>>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old  
> Warhorse.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of 
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing 
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>> 
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming  
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>>> 
>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>> 
>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 

---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for   Archives
>>>> 
> 

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>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for    Archives
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 

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-----------------------------
Message: 63
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <729445D5BCB54FC29D7666C9F160312B at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252;
reply-type=original
George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars 
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya 
hrough it.
Regards,
om B.



----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ot to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the 
lace for it.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard  George.  ;-{)

 I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into  Hrsbg.

 I am starting to get afraid of you, sir.   ;-{)

 I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter




------------------------------
Message: 64
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:30 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D57154AED0CC4686A64F06EC8F717648 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8;
reply-type=original
Welcome Tom B. #1 - same offer goes out to ya.
Regards,
om B.

-----Original Message----- 
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:32 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
This is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a
erious read as opposed to a quick scan.  But thank!
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
   Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005  -
he article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left
nder PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and
t is written by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/
ndex.htm
Regards, Tom B.


-----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is
 huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
e should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one
ast of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was
iving off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
ennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political
oxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.

 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)

 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.

 Regards,

 TB

 -----Original Message-----
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
 On Behalf Of George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,

 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:

 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.

 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.

 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914

 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
 p.. 316.

 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6

 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
.
 204

 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.

 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.

 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6

 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6

 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious.

 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.


 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"

 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.
e

> takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go
>> in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into
arrisburg.
 To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How
ong

> they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much
 time he
> had before the AoP would have been  close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
>> is a fascinating  river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,  NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a
 huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in
ow
>>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as
>> well
>>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river
>> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.
>> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is

>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).

> The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to
>> water level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts,
 and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>
>>> sticking to  it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that
>> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the
iver
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff  Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side
>> of
>>> the  river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a
tate
>>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>>
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates
sing

> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
>> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't
 another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone
 covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and

> the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
 destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced   combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>

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>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>

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>>>>
>

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------------------------------
Message: 65
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:36:13 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <c56e.42fe8a25.3c50a87d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Wow~

nother complement.  

 am going to put another mark on the wall here.    Pisses the landlord off 
ut makes me feel good.

TW- did you tell George this?  He just sank my  battleship.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eneral.jackson at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ackson used surprise to keeps the   Yanks off balance
A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
eter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Peter,
You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so 
ecretive  he did not inform his staff as to his  plans.

espectfully,
William  Richardson
ount Gilead, North  Carolina

ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The  Confederate
tates Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick  their butts 
or
our long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing  and avenues  of
enial. 
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
 -to unsubscribe
ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives


-----------------------------
Message: 66
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:10:50 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2771B6B0-EA6A-4844-AA63-A1450B9C043F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Thanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars 
ike this. It's great stuff!
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars 
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through 
t.
 
 Regards,
 Tom B.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message----- From: George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place 
or it.
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard  George.  ;-{)
> 
> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into  Hrsbg.
> 
> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir.   ;-{)
> 
> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
 
 
 
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to unsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 67
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:16:23 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <7BBC3919-0ECD-434B-B212-117EAB294669 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Oops. Missed this answer. Thanks again.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:24 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on it 
 you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are 
riceless - stumbled upon this while searching for something else - I actually 
ave the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is cheaper ;-D , and 
etter.
 Regards,
 Tom B.
 
 
 
 -----Original Message----- From: George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the 
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link 
 but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 - 
Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
> 
> Regards, Tom B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
> To: 'GDG'
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
> 
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
> 
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> TB
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
> 
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
> 
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
> 
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
> 
> ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
> 
> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p.. 316.
> 
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
> 
> ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
> 204
> 
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
> 
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
> 
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
> 
> ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
> 
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
> gets repetitious.
> 
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George
> 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 
 
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Message: 68
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "gdG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars
essage-ID: <350C14ECEF1B4F378BAB3F357E670D7D at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
For those who care.

egards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "John Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:51 AM
ubject: ALBG Scholarly Seminars

 http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/seminar.html


-----------------------------
Message: 69
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:30:27 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D762A787E3FD46A89DB9D5461C91D89C at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
  You're quite welcome - as a matter of fact - they do have a seminar this April 
3th - 15th - you have to register - link below:
http://www.nps.gov/gett/historyculture/2012-seminar.htm
We?ve already booked it ? a great program ? 2 tours ? seminars ? and an evening 
ith David Kincaid ? singing Irish C.W. ballads. Well worth it!!!
Regards,
om B.


----Original Message----- 
rom: George Connell 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:10 PM 
o: GDG 
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars 
ike this. It's great stuff!
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars 
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through 
t.
 
 Regards,
 Tom B.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message----- From: George Connell
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
 To: GDG
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place 
or it.
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard  George.  ;-{)
> 
> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into  Hrsbg.
> 
> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir.   ;-{)
> 
> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
 
 
 
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Message: 70
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:35:24 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <A5446E57-8E9C-4A34-9519-EF5453192081 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Margaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to assume 
hat Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the Susquehanna and 
hen pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he 
tated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the 
ther side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that 
ee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight 
he AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need 
ll his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various 
nion corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by 
 rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one 
nother.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of 
udacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we die."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to 
ove when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and 
lready north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about 
arrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of 
ime, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the 
eaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the 
ail hub in Harrisburg. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 
 Margaret 
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
 To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
 Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same 
 link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 
 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
 
 Regards, Tom B. 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: Tom Barrett 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM 
 To: 'GDG' 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession 
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the 
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing 
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal. 
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But 
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side 
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between 
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.) 
 
 Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" 
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the 
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. 
 
 Regards, 
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original Message----- 
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
 On Behalf Of George Connell 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM 
 To: GDG 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
 Peter, 
 
 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes: 
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up 
 from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, 
 he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his 
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. 
 
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77. 
 
 ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture 
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
 
 ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
 p.. 316. 
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture 
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
 
 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, 
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 
 204 
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
 He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry 
 had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they 
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137. 
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as 
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is 
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111. 
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous 
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the 
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed 
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
 
 ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
 passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, 
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6 
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it 
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do 
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of 
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 George 
 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" 
 
 
 
 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
to unsubscribe 
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Message: 71
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:18 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e498.18dec416.3c50b691 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
argaret,
I don't understand why so many  esteemed members of this group want to 
ssume that Lee would have sent as  small a force as possible across the 
usquehanna and then pulled it back as  soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's  Corps across the river 
as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going  to leave Longstreet's 
n the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not  unreasonable to 
peculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war,  might have been 
illing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are  some caveats, 
owever. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed  information on the 
ocations of the various Union corps; and the confidence  that the AoP corps 
ere exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in  position to 
rovide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet.  But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of 
udacious commanders  burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we  
ie."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Tom-The Second  Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and 
repared to move when Lee  called it back after learning that the AOP was on the 
move and already north  of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite 
erious about Harrisburg. I  don't believe he meant to occupy it for any 
ignificant length of time, just  long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin 
f 
A was one of the leaders of  the "War Governors" supporting the President) 
nd do damage to the rail hub in  Harrisburg. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 
  Margaret 
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
 To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00  PM 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes: 
 Sorry, more specifically , re: your below  posts on Harrisburg - the same 
 link - but the article " Our Whole  Force Was Directed ........... ". On 
g. 
 103 - "Why Harrisburg"  (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
 
 Regards, Tom B.  
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----  
 From: Tom Barrett 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM  
 To: 'GDG' 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
  
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
 
 When we discussed  this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
 with the  impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
ossession 
  of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
he  
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
ushing 
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably  cavalry. But 
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force  trapped on the East 
ide 
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail 
etween 
 its legs. (Then he could move on to  Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
herever.) 
 
 Of course, things  never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" 
 Harrisburg,  wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for 
he 
  inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. 
  
 Regards, 
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original  Message----- 
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
 On Behalf Of George Connell  
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM 
 To: GDG 
  Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
 Peter, 
 
 Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg notes: 
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John Walker, just up 
 from Richmond with his two-brigade  division, reported to Lee at 
rederick, 
 he says Lee told him that the  Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
 Pennsylvania railroad  bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
 Washington.  (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on 
is 
  thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. 
  
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in  
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.  
 
 ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means,  capture 
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
 
 ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
 p.. 316.  
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and  capture 
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
  
 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,  
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the  railroad 
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson,  General A. P. 
ill, p. 
 204 
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started  the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
 He chose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern 
nfantry 
 had  advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, 
hey  
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  p. 
37. 
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to  Harrisburg as 
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what  General Meade is 
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.  
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and  spontaneous 
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of  cavalry to block 
he 
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed 
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
 
  ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
  passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
icastro,  
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,  
/28/6 
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but 
t 
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You  can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
annot do  
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points  east 
f 
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 George 
  26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" 
 
 
 
 
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------------------------------
Message: 72
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:41:00 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <AAE83D4A-0C68-4BD3-AE0E-C180F5860CBC at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
WIlliam,
I just don't know how more scholarly references to provide. I'm not saying it 
as a good idea or a bad one. I'm not trying to justify the benefits or minimize 
he risks. I'm just pointing out that Lee SAID he wanted to go to Harrisburg and 
e gave instructions to Ewell and Hill to cross that river.
Best,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:25 PM, William Richardson wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
 To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George....
 
 
 Think of the consequences for Lee.
 
 Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He 
 takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.
 
 Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant. 
 they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson 
 falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go 
 in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
 
 Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.
 
 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne 
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?  
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg.  To 
e 
 it makes no sense.
 
 So I do doubt it.,
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 Peter,
 
   I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on 
apturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the
 Susquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I 
hink he planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw
 panic throughout the North. 
  
 Respectfully,
 
      William Richardson
      Mount Gilead, North Carolina
 
 
 Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long 
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial. 
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Message: 73
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:57 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e7e8.5e29ae1.3c50b821 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dammit George!

nother excellent contribution.

 hate that from you.

ou are much better than me.

ut I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in  Harrisburg,  
ust the minimum possible.

s a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale  ale with me?  
e'll get John Grim.  He knows good chili.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
argaret,
I don't understand why so many  esteemed members of this group want to 
ssume that Lee would have sent as  small a force as possible across the 
usquehanna and then pulled it back as  soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's  Corps across the river 
as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going  to leave Longstreet's 
n the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not  unreasonable to 
peculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war,  might have been 
illing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are  some caveats, 
owever. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed  information on the 
ocations of the various Union corps; and the confidence  that the AoP corps 
ere exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in  position to 
rovide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet.  But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of 
udacious commanders  burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we  
ie."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Tom-The Second  Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and 
repared to move when Lee  called it back after learning that the AOP was on the 
move and already north  of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite 
erious about Harrisburg. I  don't believe he meant to occupy it for any 
ignificant length of time, just  long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin 
f 
A was one of the leaders of  the "War Governors" supporting the President) 
nd do damage to the rail hub in  Harrisburg. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 
  Margaret 
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
 To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00  PM 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes: 
 Sorry, more specifically , re: your below  posts on Harrisburg - the same 
 link - but the article " Our Whole  Force Was Directed ........... ". On 
g. 
 103 - "Why Harrisburg"  (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
 
 Regards, Tom B.  
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----  
 From: Tom Barrett 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM  
 To: 'GDG' 
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
  
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
 
 When we discussed  this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
 with the  impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
ossession 
  of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
he  
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
ushing 
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably  cavalry. But 
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force  trapped on the East 
ide 
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail 
etween 
 its legs. (Then he could move on to  Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
herever.) 
 
 Of course, things  never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" 
 Harrisburg,  wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for 
he 
  inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. 
  
 Regards, 
 
 TB 
 
 -----Original  Message----- 
 From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
 On Behalf Of George Connell  
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM 
 To: GDG 
  Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
 Peter, 
 
 Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg notes: 
 
 ? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John Walker, just up 
 from Richmond with his two-brigade  division, reported to Lee at 
rederick, 
 he says Lee told him that the  Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
 Pennsylvania railroad  bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
 Washington.  (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on 
is 
  thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. 
  
 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in  
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.  
 
 ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means,  capture 
 it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
 
 ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
 p.. 316.  
 
 ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and  capture 
 Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
  
 ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,  
 cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the  railroad 
 between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson,  General A. P. 
ill, p. 
 204 
 
 ? "Then 'Jeb' started  the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
 He chose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern 
nfantry 
 had  advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, 
hey  
 must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  p. 
37. 
 
 ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to  Harrisburg as 
 expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what  General Meade is 
 after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.  
 
 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and  spontaneous 
 utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of  cavalry to block 
he 
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed 
 Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
 
  ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
  passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
icastro,  
 LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,  
/28/6 
 
 Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but 
t 
 gets repetitious. 
 
 You  can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
annot do  
 is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points  east 
f 
 the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him. 
 
 
 Regards, 
 
 George 
  26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" 
 
 
 
 
  
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to unsubscribe 
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives 
  
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Message: 74
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:55:57 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <D5C68CDC008449A980C403D9C0C2C890 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Matt Diestel" <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:36 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
>


> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
> their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
> piecemeal.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
>    As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was 
> not
> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same 
> time.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.

                With regards,
                        Chet
Chet,
His specific orders were not to intercept Lee and cover Washington.
They were to cover washington and ddefeat Lee.
Little more leeway in that.
Regards,
Jack

ooker had consistently wanted to grapple lee down on the river, and IMHO, 
as content foe Lee to come back out. 


------------------------------
Message: 75
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:00:22 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <49577D2414FF4C16ABD9B3712835F0C1 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
If Meade had maintained Hooker's position, hje was prepared to move and 
ntercept Lee from Marylan if Lee came out of the Cumberland valley.
Given that Halleck and kincoln were well aware of Lee's movement north had 
eally considered any border incursion as a serious threat, I think it is 
nlikely that they really cared what Lee did as long as DC was safe. they 
ere concentrated on Vicksburg at the time. I get the impression that 
incoln, at least, was pretty sanguibe about the whole thing, other than an 
ppurtunity to defeat Lee.
There was never a real threat.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Matt Diestel" <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:21 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes:


 In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders
 required him to cover Baltimore as well.

 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"

 George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums.
 Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed
 capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to 
 cover
 Boston as well.

                With regards,
                   Chet
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------------------------------
Message: 76
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:07:19 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <B07C669C-7047-4060-9C5F-522C632949CE at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thank you, Peter.
I don't think he would have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having 
aptured it, I expect he would have quickly reduced the number to that 
ufficient to control the town and destroy its war-fighting facilities.
One reason is that there were important objectives outside Harrisburg to be 
estroyed. For that we have a bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to follow 
n trace of Ewell, but then to focus on targets east of Harrisburg. Another 
eason is that he would have had to maneuver quickly to fight the various Union 
orps separately. 
You can be sure, if actually were to have happened, that Lee would never sit 
till and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a well-rested and 
ell-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been everything.
Regards,

eorge

n Jan 24, 2012, at 20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Dammit George!
 
 Another excellent contribution.
 
 I hate that from you.
 
 You are much better than me.
 
 But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in  Harrisburg,  
 just the minimum possible.
 
 As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale  ale with me?  
 We'll get John Grim.  He knows good chili.
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Margaret,
 
 I don't understand why so many  esteemed members of this group want to 
 assume that Lee would have sent as  small a force as possible across the 
 Susquehanna and then pulled it back as  soon as possible.
 
 If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's  Corps across the river 
 (as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going  to leave Longstreet's 
 on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not  unreasonable to 
 speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war,  might have been 
 willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are  some caveats, 
 however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed  information on the 
 locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence  that the AoP corps 
 were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in  position to 
 provide meaningful support to one another.
 
 Risky? You bet.  But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of 
 audacious commanders  burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we  
 die."
 
 Regards,
 
 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough  wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Tom-The Second  Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and 
 prepared to move when Lee  called it back after learning that the AOP was on 
he 
 move and already north  of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite 
 serious about Harrisburg. I  don't believe he meant to occupy it for any 
 significant length of time, just  long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew 
urtin of 
 PA was one of the leaders of  the "War Governors" supporting the President) 
 and do damage to the rail hub in  Harrisburg. 
> 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> 
> Margaret 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom"  <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00  PM 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes: 
> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below  posts on Harrisburg - the same 
> link - but the article " Our Whole  Force Was Directed ........... ". On 
 Pg. 
> 103 - "Why Harrisburg"  (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
> 
> Regards, Tom B.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----  
> From: Tom Barrett 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM  
> To: 'GDG' 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
> 
> When we discussed  this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left 
> with the  impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in 
 possession 
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
 the  
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
 rushing 
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.  
> 
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably  cavalry. But 
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force  trapped on the East 
 side 
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail 
 between 
> its legs. (Then he could move on to  Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
 wherever.) 
> 
> Of course, things  never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked" 
> Harrisburg,  wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for 
 the 
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> TB 
> 
> -----Original  Message----- 
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> On Behalf Of George Connell  
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM 
> To: GDG 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
> Peter, 
> 
> Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg notes: 
> 
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when  General John Walker, just up 
> from Richmond with his two-brigade  division, reported to Lee at 
 Frederick, 
> he says Lee told him that the  Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
> Pennsylvania railroad  bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
> Washington.  (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on 
 his 
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign. 
> 
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in  
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.  
> 
> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means,  capture 
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
> 
> ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
> p.. 316.  
> 
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and  capture 
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6 
> 
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,  
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the  railroad 
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson,  General A. P. 
 Hill, p. 
> 204 
> 
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started  the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
> He chose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern 
 infantry 
> had  advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, 
 they  
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  p. 
 137. 
> 
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to  Harrisburg as 
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what  General Meade is 
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.  
> 
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and  spontaneous 
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of  cavalry to block 
 the 
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed 
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
> 
> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
 Nicastro,  
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,  
 6/28/6 
> 
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but 
 it 
> gets repetitious. 
> 
> You  can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
 cannot do  
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points  east 
 of 
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him. 
> 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> George 
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe 
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives 
> 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
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Message: 77
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:11:32 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <f5d3.7730dd5.3c50bed4 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Yayyyyy!!!!!

inally Sir-

e see finally eye-to-eye.  I can see putting a  raiding/expeditionary 
orce into Hrsbg but to invest it would be nuts.   Just suicide.

ou are so much cooler than me.  I find that hard to  accept.

 well.... 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:07:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
hank you, Peter.
I don't think he would  have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having 
aptured it, I expect he  would have quickly reduced the number to that 
ufficient to control the town  and destroy its war-fighting facilities.
One reason is that there were  important objectives outside Harrisburg to 
e destroyed. For that we have a  bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to 
ollow in trace of Ewell, but then  to focus on targets east of Harrisburg. 
nother reason is that he would have  had to maneuver quickly to fight the 
arious Union corps separately.  
You can be sure, if actually were to have happened, that Lee would  never 
it still and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a  
ell-rested and well-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been  
verything.
Regards,

eorge

n Jan 24, 2012, at  20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 Dammit George!
 
 Another excellent  contribution.
 
 I hate that from you.
 
 You are  much better than me.
 
 But I still don't think Lee would have  put the whole ANV in  Harrisburg, 

 just the minimum  possible.
 
 As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not  share a pale  ale with 
e?  
 We'll get John Grim.  He  knows good chili.
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
  Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55  P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 georgeconnell at mac.com  writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
  Margaret,
 
 I don't understand why so many  esteemed  members of this group want to 
 assume that Lee would have sent  as  small a force as possible across the 
 Susquehanna and then  pulled it back as  soon as possible.
 
 If Lee intended to  move Ewell's Corps and Hill's  Corps across the river 
 (as he  stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going  to leave 
ongstreet's  
 on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not   unreasonable to 
 speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of  the war,  might have 
een 
 willing to fight the AoP east of the  Susquehanna. There are  some 
aveats, 
 however. He would need all  his cavalry with him; detailed  information 
n the 
 locations of  the various Union corps; and the confidence  that the AoP 
orps 
  were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in  position to  
 provide meaningful support to one another.
 
 Risky?  You bet.  But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number 
f  
 audacious commanders  burning their boats and telling troops "We  win or 
e  
 die."
 
 Regards,
 
  George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
 
 On Jan 24,  2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough  wrote:
 
>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Tom-The Second  Corps was  just across the river from Harrisburg and 
 prepared to move when  Lee  called it back after learning that the AOP 
as on the 
 move  and already north  of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite  
 serious about Harrisburg. I  don't believe he meant to occupy it  for any 
 significant length of time, just  long enough to score a  PR coup (Andrew 
urtin of 
 PA was one of the leaders of  the "War  Governors" supporting the 
resident) 
 and do damage to the rail hub  in  Harrisburg. 
> 
> 
> Regards,  
> 
> 
> Margaret 
> 
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
> To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  7:08:00  PM 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River  
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes: 
>  Sorry, more specifically , re: your below  posts on Harrisburg - the 
ame  
> link - but the article " Our Whole  Force Was Directed  ........... ". 
n 
 Pg. 
> 103 - "Why Harrisburg"   (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._ 
> 
> Regards, Tom  B.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  -----Original Message-----  
> From: Tom Barrett 
>  Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM  
> To: 'GDG'  
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River 
> 
>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
> 
> When we  discussed  this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was 
eft  
> with the  impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in 
 possession 
> of some common sense, and being able  to read maps, was using Harrisburg 
 the  
> way a  matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP  
  rushing 
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.  
> 
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was  a good idea. Preferably  cavalry. 
ut 
> it made no sense for  him to get a slow moving force  trapped on the 
ast 
 side  
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with  its tail 
 between 
> its legs. (Then he could move on  to  Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or 
 wherever.) 
>  
> Of course, things  never got that far, but I think he would  have 
sacked" 
> Harrisburg,  wrecked the railroad, burned the  warehouses, and waited 
or 
 the 
> inevitable reaction- but  waited on the West side of the river. 
> 
> Regards,  
> 
> TB 
> 
> -----Original   Message----- 
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] 
> On Behalf Of George  Connell  
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM  
> To: GDG 
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River  
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
>  Peter, 
> 
> Some relevant items from my  Gettysburg  notes: 
> 
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when   General John Walker, just up 
> from Richmond with his  two-brigade  division, reported to Lee at 
 Frederick,  
> he says Lee told him that the  Army was going to Harrisburg,  destroy 
he 
> Pennsylvania railroad  bridge, and then go to  Philadelphia, Baltimore, 
r 
> Washington.  (B&L, vol. 3).  See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for 
n 
 his 
>  thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.  
> 
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I  hope we may be in  
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.  
> 
> ? Lee to  Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means,  capture 
> it.?  O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914 
> 
> ? ..."orders   were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, 
> p..  316.  
> 
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross  the river and  capture 
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg  LBG, 8/6/6 
> 
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to  follow in trace of Early,  
> cross the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the  
ailroad 
> between Harrisburg  and Philadelphia. James Robertson,  General A. P. 
 Hill, p.  
> 204 
> 
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started  the  entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. 
> He chose this   objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern 
 infantry  
> had  advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the  vicinity of York, 
 they  
> must be around Carlisle or  Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  p. 
 137. 
>  
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to   Harrisburg as 
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see  what  General Meade is 
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp  110-111.  
> 
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say  the document and  spontaneous 
> utterances. He changed his  mind because of a lack of  cavalry to block 
 the 
>  passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the  Gettysburg Licensed  
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6 
> 
> ? In  Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the 
>  passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony 
  Nicastro,  
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed  Battlefield Guide class,  
 6/28/6 
> 
> Now  that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but 

 it 
> gets repetitious. 
> 
> You   can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you 
 cannot  do  
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and  other points  
ast 
 of 
> the Susquehanna)--and he was  taking a lot of infantry with  him. 
> 
>  
> Regards, 
> 
> George 
> 26?11'56"N  81?48'19W" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
  
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Message: 78
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:12:25 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <27DBFFCDD111414097FD75D0A190610B at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original
Hello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
ee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he wanted 
o do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid 
nough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but a 
aid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a 
wift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the 
nemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon 
ompletion of the assigned mission.
The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more than it was.
Regards,
Jack
 ----- Original Message ----- 
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from 
ichmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he 
ays Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the 
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or 
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his 
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in 
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 
7, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 
16.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. 
ich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross 
he Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between 
arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He 
hose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had 
dvanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must 
e around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, 
ut will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? 
ettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous 
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the 
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed 
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, 
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in 
 lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it 
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do 
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of 
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.

Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 George....

 I love you Man....

 But I DO doubt it......

 Think of the consequences for Lee.

 Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact  artmy.  He
 takes that army on the wrong side of the  river.

 Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the  CW.  Before Ant.
 they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to  mention Jackson
 falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go
 in and parade around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.

 Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a  city.

 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being  on tne
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the  Cumberlaand?
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going  into Harrisburg. 
 To me
 it makes no sense.

 So I do doubt it.,

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 georgeconnell at mac.com writes:

 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Peter,

 There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to capture Harrisburg. To
 do that, he would have to move infantry  east of the Susquehanna. How long
 they would stay is another question and very  much depends on how much 
 time he
 had before the AoP would have been  close.

 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"

 On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna  River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also  very low.  I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.  It
> is a fascinating  river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany,  NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water   source of
 the
>> Ches Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY  state.
>>
>> Extremely wide.  Just north of  the state border with MD  there is a 
>> huge
>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in low
>> water on the R at  Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf  commander putting any  significant
 number of
>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG  campaign.  You might as
 well
>> wave goodbye as  they marched off to  Johnson's  Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could  move fast east of  the river
 but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of   loggers
 putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty  amazing
 stories.
>>
>> The  Susq  R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  Coast.
 The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly   enough.  If I lived in
 Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If  you go online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years  ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
 The
>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the bay (I  need my
>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up   to
 water level
>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,  which scares  experts, 
>> and
>> costs me sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty  scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the  57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am

>> sticking to  it.
>>
>>
>> A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed  GDG  Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam in  which you refer, the one just below
 City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
 [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf  Of Jeff  Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To:  GDG
>> Subject:  Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your  point  about the river being shallow is true today.  However that
 is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the  river
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff  Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From:   "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very  rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and  careful commander would not want to put more  than   an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed  on  the east side
 of
>> the  river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal other than being a   state
>>> capital and RR  center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the   river  there.
>>>
>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed it in order to  keep the  Confederates using
 it
>> to
>>> cross over  the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
 on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the  Confederates to   attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the  bridge's  destruction,
 the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages to saving it and  tried to
 save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers in  the  world but
>> bridges
>>> were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there  wasn't 
>>> another
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be  rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the  days before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't
 easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge was a  wood &  stone 
>>> covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to  be the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
 the
>> flames
>>> that  destroyed the wood, leaving  only the granite  supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original  Message  -----
>>> From: "Tom"   <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG"    <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  10:38:11  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable  defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the damn  thing IS still made of  big
>>> granite  blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed, by
 fire
>>> (not the granite supports   of course), by  Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:  CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012  9:28  PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think  we  disagree,  sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it  written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about 
>>> destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee was  just about as
 aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example,
 Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not  dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as
 being a
>>> balanced   combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee   could see the Hammer and the  Anvil.
>>>
>>> The  Hammer was  Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the  wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old
 Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I   don't  recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying  the RR bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of
 his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you  think  about it, the damn thing IS still made of   big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn  thing
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming
 forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in    overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
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------------------------------
Message: 79
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:18:30 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <f8bd.7b421b8e.3c50c076 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in  keeping view of 
ee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge  fortress and was 
lmost impenetrable.  Certainly no Conf army sent north  would ever have the 
esources to penetrate it.

t was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and  move.  Kinda 
ike a great big luxury liner and a buncha  rocks. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in  ascendence raises its head.
ee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade  started to move. All he wanted 
o do was to pull Meade north to clear his  rear.
obby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially  stupid 
nough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into  anything but 
 
aid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale,  involving a 
wift penetration of hostile territory to secure information,  confuse the 
nemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned  withdrawal upon 
ompletion of the assigned mission.
The mission  here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the  mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more  than it was.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----  
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09  PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member  Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg  notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up  from 
ichmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,  he 
ays Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the  
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or  
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for  on 
is 
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this  campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may  be in 
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  pp.76-77.
?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your  means, capture it.? 
.R., 
7, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 
16.
?  June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. 

ich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, 
ross 
he Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between 
arrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He 
hose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had 
dvanced  to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they 
ust 
e  around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
?  Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, 

ut will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?  
ettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous 
tterances. He changed his mind  because of a lack of cavalry to block the 
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed 
attlefield Guide class,  6/27/6
?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown,  block the passes, 
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible.  Tony Nicastro, LGB, 
n 
 lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield  Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but it 
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can  grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot 
o 
s doubt any  longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of 
he  Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.

egards,
George
6?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  George....

 I love you Man....

 But I DO doubt  it......

 Think of the consequences for Lee.

  Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   artmy.  
e
 takes that army on the wrong side of the   river.

 Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in  the  CW.  Before Ant.
 they lost a lot of men getting drunk  in the town, not to  mention Jackson
 falling asleep during the  sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
 Occupying a city for ANY army  is fraught with  danger.  You don't just go
 in and parade  around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.

 Lee  was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a   city.

 And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro  being  on tne
 wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were  in the  Cumberlaand?
 Politely, I would like to hear an argument  for Lee going  into 
arrisburg. 
 To me
 it makes no  sense.

 So I do doubt it.,

 A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated  1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 georgeconnell at mac.com  writes:

 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
  Peter,

 There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to  capture Harrisburg. To
 do that, he would have to move infantry   east of the Susquehanna. How 
ong
 they would stay is another question  and very  much depends on how much 
 time he
 had before  the AoP would have been  close.

 Regards,

  George
> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"

 On Jan  24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:

> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna  River is extremely  low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also  very  low.  I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both  in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South  Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.   It
> is a fascinating  river.
>
>  Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany,   NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,    <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good  issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin  and the largest water   source of
 the
>> Ches  Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY   state.
>>
>> Extremely wide.  Just north  of  the state border with MD  there is a 
>>  huge
>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>
>> Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in  
ow
>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane  Conf  commander putting any  significant
 number  of
>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG   campaign.  You might as
 well
>> wave goodbye  as  they marched off to  Johnson's   Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that  could  move fast east of  the river
 but
>> not  infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage  I have read stories of   loggers
 putting
>> log  rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty   amazing
 stories.
>>
>> The  Susq   R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East   Coast.
 The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault,  oddly   enough.  If I lived in
 Manhatten  I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If  you go  online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is  
a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years   ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix  here!).
  The
>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the  bay (I  need my
>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the  dam has pretty much silted up   to
 water  level
>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares  experts, 
>> and
>> costs me  sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>
>>  Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty   scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the   57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am

>> sticking  to  it.
>>
>>
>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>  Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message  dated  1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed   GDG  Member Contributes:
>>  Jeff:
>>
>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam  in  which you refer, the one just below
 City
>>  Island across from the city?
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original  Message-----
>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf  Of  Jeff  Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42  PM
>> To:  GDG
>> Subject:  Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Your  point  about the river being  shallow is true today.  However that
 is
>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the   
iver
>> flowed  free.
>>
>>
>>  Namaste
>>
>> Jeff   Burk
>>
>>
>>>  ________________________________
>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> The river at that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts  
ut
>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east side
 of
>> the   river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being a   
tate
>>> capital and RR   center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river   there.
>>>
>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>  Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the  Confederates 
sing
  it
>> to
>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
 on
>>  the
>>> east and this would have enabled the   Confederates to   attack the 
ity
>>  from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,
 the
>>  ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried to
 save
>>  it.
>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the  world but
>> bridges
>>>  were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't 
>>> another
>> until
>>>  Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be   
ebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't
  easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone 
>>>  covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to  be  the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time and
  the
>> flames
>>> that  destroyed the wood,  leaving  only the granite   supports.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>  Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original   Message  -----
>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed   GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>  And
>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the  damn  thing IS still made of  
ig
>>> granite   blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing
  over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed,  by
 fire
>>> (not the granite supports   of  course), by  Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom  B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>>  Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully  Sir,
>>>
>>> I think  we   disagree,  sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it   written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about 
>>>  destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about as
 aggressive as
>>> Jackson was  in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example,
  Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>>  & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as
  being a
>>> balanced    combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man  Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>
>>> The  Hammer was   Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old
  Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being  
oncerned
>> about
>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of
  his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of   
ig
>>>  granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn   thing
 over
>>> without a
>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time and   trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where  just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming
  forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in     overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of  going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the  
orth.
>>> Everything else was a  subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>  Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
  
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------------------------------
Message: 80
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:27:15 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <7AEDD7441304441E937227EC05889880 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.  Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on 
he GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee 
o an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.


 have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.



------------------------------
Message: 81
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:33:49 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <ffbd.3cce327d.3c50c40d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jack...

 am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.

e says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and  invest 
arrisburg.

an you please address him in this matter?

 really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the  city.

lease talk to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man that I 
hink it is worth the effort.

-{)   !!!!!

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member  Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in 
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was  using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.  But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East 
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are  correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled 
n 
he  GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that  grandiosize 
ee 
o an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
mancipator, even  though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was  never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
arrisburg. But,  as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail lines.


 have cut the thread as the  length was getting  onerous.


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-----------------------------
Message: 82
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:49:04 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <F758E5AAEB4C4CFB95F3BCC129561AFB at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
First,
We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!!
ary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our 
aptain is Italian.
I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but 
ot lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression 
 picked up somewhere.
Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC?

---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in  keeping view of
 Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge  fortress and 
 was
 almost impenetrable.  Certainly no Conf army sent north  would ever have 
 the
 resources to penetrate it.

 It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and  move. 
 Kinda
 like a great big luxury liner and a buncha  rocks.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:

 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Hello.

 Once again, the chimera of a Lee in  ascendence raises its head.
 Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade  started to move. All he 
 wanted
 to do was to pull Meade north to clear his  rear.
 Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially  stupid
 enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into  anything but
 a
 raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale,  involving a
 swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information,  confuse the
 enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned  withdrawal 
 upon
 completion of the assigned mission.

 The mission  here was certainly to confuse the enemy.

 Once Meade moved north, the  mission was complete.

 Time to go home.

 Let's not make this more  than it was.

 Regards,

 Jack

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
 To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 Peter,

 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg  notes:

 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up  from
 Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,  he
 says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for  on
 his
 thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this  campaign.

 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may  be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  pp.76-77.

 ?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your  means, capture it.?
 O.R.,
 27, pt.3. p.914

 ? ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
 316.

 ?  June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture 
 Harrisburg.

 Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6

 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
 cross
 the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
 between
 Harrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204

 ? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
 chose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry 
 had
 advanced  to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
 must
 be  around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.

 ?  Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,

 but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
 Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.

 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind  because of a lack of cavalry to block the
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide class,  6/27/6

 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown,  block the passes,
 wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible.  Tony Nicastro, LGB,
 in
 a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield  Guide class, 6/28/6

 Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but it
 gets repetitious.

 You can moan, you can  grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
 do
 is doubt any  longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east 
 of
 the  Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.


 Regards,

 George
 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"

 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>  George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt  it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
>  Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   artmy.
 He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the   river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in  the  CW.  Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk  in the town, not to  mention 
> Jackson
> falling asleep during the  sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army  is fraught with  danger.  You don't just 
> go
> in and parade  around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee  was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a   city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro  being  on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were  in the  Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument  for Lee going  into
 Harrisburg.
> To me
> it makes no  sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated  1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com  writes:
>
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>  Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to  capture Harrisburg. 
> To
> do that, he would have to move infantry   east of the Susquehanna. How
 long
> they would stay is another question  and very  much depends on how much
> time he
> had before  the AoP would have been  close.
>
> Regards,
>
>  George

> 26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan  24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>
>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely  low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also  very  low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both  in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South  Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.   It
>> is a fascinating  river.
>>
>>  Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,   NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,    <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good  issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin  and the largest water   source of
> the
>>> Ches  Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY   state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide.  Just north  of  the state border with MD  there is a
>>>  huge
>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>>
>>> Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in
 low
>>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane  Conf  commander putting any  significant
> number  of
>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG   campaign.  You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye  as  they marched off to  Johnson's   Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that  could  move fast east of  the 
>>> river
> but
>>> not  infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage  I have read stories of   loggers
> putting
>>> log  rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty   amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The  Susq   R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East 
>>> Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault,  oddly   enough.  If I lived in
> Manhatten  I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high 
>>> rise.
>>>
>>> If  you go  online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is
 a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years   ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix 
>>> here!).
>  The
>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the  bay (I  need my
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the  dam has pretty much silted up 
>>> to
> water  level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares  experts,
>>> and
>>> costs me  sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>>
>>>  Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty   scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the   57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>
>>> sticking  to  it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>  Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message  dated  1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed   GDG  Member Contributes:
>>>  Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam  in  which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>>  Island across from the city?
>>>
>>>  Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf  Of  Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42  PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>> Subject:  Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river being  shallow is true today.  However 
>>> that
> is
>>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the
 river
>>> flowed  free.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff   Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>>  ________________________________
>>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts
 but
>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
>>>> side
> of
>>> the   river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being a
 state
>>>> capital and RR   center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river   there.
>>>>
>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>  Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the  Confederates
 using
>  it
>>> to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
> on
>>>  the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the   Confederates to   attack the
 city
>>>  from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,
> the
>>>  ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried to
> save
>>>  it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the  world but
>>> bridges
>>>>  were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't
>>>> another
>>> until
>>>>  Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be
 rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't
>  easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone
>>>>  covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to  be  the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time 
>>>> and
>  the
>>> flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood,  leaving  only the granite   supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original   Message  -----
>>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed   GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>>  And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the  damn  thing IS still made of
 big
>>>> granite   blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing
>  over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed,  by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports   of  course), by  Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom  B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>>>  Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully  Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think  we   disagree,  sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it   written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
>>>>  destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was  in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example,
>  Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>  & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as
>  being a
>>>> balanced    combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man  Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The  Hammer was   Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old
>  Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being
 concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of
>  his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of
 big
>>>>  granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn 
>>>> thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time and   trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where  just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming
>  forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in     overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of  going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the
 North.
>>>> Everything else was a  subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>  Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>>  m
>>>>  -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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------------------------------
Message: 83
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:51:52 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <31532F75B1914DCD975DDB9629A3802F at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jack...

 I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.

 He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and  invest
 Harrisburg.

 Can you please address him in this matter?

 I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the  city.

 Please talk to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man that 
 I
 think it is worth the effort.

 ;-{)   !!!!!

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:

 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:

 ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
 To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:

 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in
 possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was  using Harrisburg 
 the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP 
 rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.

 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry. 
 But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East
 side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail 
 between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or 
 wherever.)

 Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for 
 the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.

 Regards,

 TB

 Hello.

 You are  correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
 on
 the  GDG.

 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that  grandiosize
 Lee
 to an unsubstainable level.

 Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
 Emancipator, even  though that is an unrealistic perception and I know 
 it.)

 There was  never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
 Harrisburg. But,  as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).

 Regards,

 Jack

 BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail lines.




 I have cut the thread as the  length was getting  onerous.





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------------------------------
Message: 84
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:56:55 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <10953.10d3ab2c.3c50c977 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
So what's wrong with an Italian captain?  If you follow  him closely you'll 
e the 2nd person off the boat when it starts to  sink.  Nuttin wrong with 
hat.

-{)

o you like my new sign-off?  I don't know what a  neo-anti unionst is but 
 hope it will make people leave me alone.  A lot  of Libertarians ask too 
any questions. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
irst,
We don't talk about cruise liners and  rocks here. Please!!
ary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is  already asking if our 
aptain is Italian.
I am not so sure DC was  not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but 
ot lots of soldiers.  Never really looked at it, but that was my 
mpression 
 picked up  somewhere.
Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how  could he hold DC?

---- Original Message ----- 
rom:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent:  Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs  Occupation

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 You are  correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in  keeping view of
  Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge  fortress and 

 was
 almost impenetrable.  Certainly no Conf army sent  north  would ever have 
 the
 resources to penetrate  it.

 It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid  and  move. 
 Kinda
 like a great big luxury liner and a  buncha  rocks.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
  Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:

  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 Hello.

 Once  again, the chimera of a Lee in  ascendence raises its head.
 Lee  pulled these guys back as soon as Meade  started to move. All he 
  wanted
 to do was to pull Meade north to clear his  rear.
  Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially   stupid
 enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg  into  anything 
ut
 a
 raid. Raid is defined as an  operation, usually small scale,  involving a
 swift penetration of  hostile territory to secure information,  confuse 
he
 enemy, or  to destroy installations. It ends with a planned  withdrawal 
  upon
 completion of the assigned mission.

 The  mission  here was certainly to confuse the enemy.

 Once  Meade moved north, the  mission was complete.

 Time to go  home.

 Let's not make this more  than it  was.

 Regards,

 Jack

 -----  Original Message -----
 From: "George Connell"  <georgeconnell at mac.com>
 To: "GDG"   <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  4:09  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River


 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
  Peter,

 Some relevant items from my Gettysburg   notes:

 ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John  Walker, just up  from
 Richmond with his two-brigade division,  reported to Lee at Frederick,  he
 says Lee told him that the Army  was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
 Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and  then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
 Washington. (B&L, vol. 3).  See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for  on
 his
  thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this   campaign.

 ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I  hope we may  be in
 Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's  Lieutenants, Vol III,  pp.76-77.

 ?  Lee to  Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your  means, capture  it.?
 O.R.,
 27, pt.3. p.914

 ? ..."orders   were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
  316.

 ?  June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river  and capture 
 Harrisburg.

 Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG,  8/6/6

 ?  Lee?s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to  follow in trace of Early,
 cross
 the Susquehanna  downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
  between
 Harrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A.  P. Hill, p. 204

 ? "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column  for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
 chose this  objective because he  reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry 
 had
 advanced  to  the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
  must
 be  around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol  III, p. 137.

 ?  Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not  move to Harrisburg as 
xpected,

 but will go over to Gettysburg  and see what General Meade is after.?
 Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp  110-111.

 ? Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the  document and spontaneous
 utterances. He changed his mind  because  of a lack of cavalry to block 
he
 passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in  a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
 Battlefield Guide  class,  6/27/6

 ?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would  dig in at Cashtown,  block the 
asses,
 wait for Stuart, and head  for Harrisburg if possible.  Tony Nicastro, 
GB,
 in
 a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield  Guide class,  6/28/6

 Now that's ten citations from eight respected   sources; I have more but 
t
 gets repetitious.

 You can  moan, you can  grumble, and you can speculate, but what you  
annot
 do
 is doubt any  longer. Lee was going to  Harrisburg (and other points east 
 of
 the   Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with   him.


 Regards,

 George
  26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"

 On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01  PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>  George....
>
> I love you  Man....
>
> But I DO doubt   it......
>
> Think of the consequences for  Lee.
>
>  Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he  would have an intact   artmy.
 He
> takes that army  on the wrong side of the   river.
>
> Look at  the Confederate occupation of Frederick in  the  CW.  Before  
nt.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk  in the town, not  to  mention 
> Jackson
> falling asleep during  the  sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
> Occupying a  city for ANY army  is fraught with  danger.  You don't just 

> go
> in and parade  around.  You risk  losing  control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee  was in  the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a    city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would  gain fro  being  on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his  supply lines were  in the  Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I  would like to hear an argument  for Lee going  into
  Harrisburg.
> To me
> it makes no   sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
>  A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
>  Peter
>
>
> In a message dated  1/24/2012  3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com   writes:
>
> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>  Peter,
>
> There is  absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to  capture Harrisburg. 

> To
> do that, he would have to move  infantry   east of the Susquehanna. How
 long
>  they would stay is another question  and very  much depends on how  much
> time he
> had before  the AoP would have  been  close.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  George

>  26?11'56"N    81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan  24,  2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>
>>  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna   River is extremely  low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>>  where it is also  very  low.  I have seen a good deal of  the
>> Susquehanna, both  in  South Central PA (I grew  up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South  Central New  York,  where it is much deeper, yet narrower.   
t
>> is a  fascinating  river.
>>
>>   Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany,    NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,   <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG  Member   Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up  some good  issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is  an amazing river basin  and the largest water   source  
f
> the
>>> Ches  Bay.  Goes all the way  up into southern  NY    state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide.  Just  north  of  the state border with MD  there is  a
>>>  huge
>>> dam, the   Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile    
sland.
>>>
>>> Someone  correct me but  if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in
  low
>>> water on the R at    Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any  sane  Conf  commander putting any  significant
>  number  of
>>> infantry east of  the river during  the GTYSBG   campaign.  You might 
s
>  well
>>> wave goodbye  as  they marched off to   Johnson's   Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz  Ewell I'd put cavalry that  could  move fast east of  the  
>>> river
> but
>>> not   infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American  Heritage  I have read stories of   loggers
>  putting
>>> log  rafts a good mile long down the river  from  NY.  Pretty   amazing
>  stories.
>>>
>>> The  Susq   R  is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East  
>>> Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is  an earthquake fault,  oddly   enough.  If I lived  in
> Manhatten  I
>>> wouldn't be able to  sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high  
>>> rise.
>>>
>>> If   you go  online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay  
s
 a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of  years   ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo  Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix  
>>> here!).
>  The
>>>  overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the  bay (I   need 
y
>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the   dam has pretty much silted up 
>>> to
> water   level
>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy  metals,   which scares  experts,
>>>  and
>>> costs me  sleep at night worrying  about  it.
>>>
>>>  Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc.  It is  pretty   scary.
>>>
>>>  That's my story, along with the   57mm's gun in Wrightsville  and  I 
m
>
>>> sticking  to   it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A   Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>   Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a  message  dated  1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>  amills at jplcreative.com  writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed   GDG   Member Contributes:
>>>   Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of  curiosity:  is  the dam  in  which you refer, the one just 
elow
>  City
>>>  Island across from the  city?
>>>
>>>   Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original   Message-----
>>> From:   gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>   [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf   Of  Jeff  Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  1:42  PM
>>> To:  GDG
>>>  Subject:  Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>>> Your  point  about the river  being  shallow is true today.  However 
>>>  that
> is
>>> because  the river has been  dammed upstream.  during the  war  the
  river
>>> flowed   free.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff    Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>>   ________________________________
>>>> From:     "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>   To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent:  Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable   defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed   GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> The river at  that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer   droughts
 but
>>>> very wide and quite an   obstacle. Very    rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and   careful  commander would not want to put more  than     
n
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been   sacrificed  on  the east 
>>>> side
>  of
>>> the   river.
>>>>  Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being  a
 state
>>>> capital and RR    center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns  sitting  on the west side of the   river    
here.
>>>>
>>>> A   Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>   Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  In a message  dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern  Standard  Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net   writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed   GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The   militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the   Confederates
 using
>  it
>>>  to
>>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the  Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  
s
>  on
>>>  the
>>>> east and this would  have enabled the   Confederates to   attack the
  city
>>>  from
>>>> both sides. While  Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,
>  the
>>>  ANV
>>>> generals on the  scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried  
o
> save
>>>  it.
>>>> The  Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the   world 
ut
>>> bridges
>>>>  were   needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there    wasn't
>>>> another
>>>  until
>>>>  Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy  sections so it  could  be
 rebuilt
>>>  later
>>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite,  that sort of  precision  wasn't
>   easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville   bridge  was a  wood &  stone
>>>>   covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to   be  the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time  
>>>> and
>  the
>>>  flames
>>>> that  destroyed the wood,   leaving  only the granite    supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Margaret
>>>>
>>>> -----  Original   Message  -----
>>>> From:  "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To:  "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>  Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11   PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable   defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed    GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>>   And
>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it,  the  damn  thing IS still made of
  big
>>>> granite   blocks. Now just how are you  going to   knock the darn 
hing
>   over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot   of  valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was  destroyed,  
y
> fire
>>>> (not the granite  supports   of  course), by  Union  militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom   B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:    CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012   9:28  PM
>>>> To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re:   GDG-   Inevitable  defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed  GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>>>   Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully   Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think   we   disagree,   sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it    written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson  about
>>>>  destroying
>>>>  infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about  as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was   in   bringing the war to your opponent. for   example,
>   Antietam,
>>>
>>>>  Gtysbg,
>>>>  &  Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not    dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson  as
>  being a
>>>> balanced     combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of  2nd Man  Lee   could see the Hammer and the    Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The  Hammer  was   Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The  Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the  Old
>   Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just  curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being
  concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying   the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern  
f
>  his.
>>> And
>>>> in  fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made  of
 big
>>>>  granite blocks. Now just  how  are you going to knock  the darn 
>>>>  thing
> over
>>>> without  a
>>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time  and   trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's  3 raids up north where  just that.  Raids.  Move  overwhelming
>  forces
>>>> up north and  attack piecemeal in     overwhelming  force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of   going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the
  North.
>>>> Everything else was a   subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal    Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>   Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
  
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Message: 85
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:16:28 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <C494B935-9D64-4749-981B-FDC962081642 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Jack,
First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support. 
Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long 
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references. 
On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to 
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was 
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over 
he river is more than a raid. 
I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as 
hey came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why 
ouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be 
o exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore.  What's west 
f it? Breezewood?
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com
 
 Hello.
 
 You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on 
he GDG.
 
 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee 
o an unsubstainable level.
 
 Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
 
 There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
 
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
 
 
 
 
 I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
 
 
 
 
 
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------------------------------
Message: 86
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:18:33 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3C068B9B-0B50-4DCA-B788-E4B5D8441C18 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Peter,
I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down the 
hovel and look them up!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jack...
 
 I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.
 
 He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and  invest 
 Harrisburg.
 
 Can you please address him in this matter?
 
 I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the  city.
 
 Please talk to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man that I 
 think it is worth the effort.
 
 ;-{)   !!!!!
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter  
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
 
 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 
 ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
 To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 
 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 
 When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I was left
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in 
 possession
 of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was  using Harrisburg the
 way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP rushing
 wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
 
 Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.  But
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East 
 side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail between
 its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
 
 Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for the
 inevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
 TB
 
 Hello.
 
 You are  correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled 
 on 
 the  GDG.
 
 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that  grandiosize 
 Lee 
 to an unsubstainable level.
 
 Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
 Emancipator, even  though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
 
 There was  never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
 Harrisburg. But,  as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).
 
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail lines.
 
 
 
 
 I have cut the thread as the  length was getting  onerous.
 
 
 
 
 
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  -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
 
 
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Message: 87
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:26:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <114d7.1489a0a0.3c50d06f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Actually there's some good cheap restaurants in  Breezewood.  

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:17:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at me.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ack,
First of all, your Faulkner comment is  patronizing.
Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of  evidence in 
upport. 
Third, you dismiss with exactly one short,  unsubstantiated sentence a long 
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen  documented references. 
On the other hand, we know that Lee had given  "be prepared" instructions 
o cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps.  We don't know what he 
as planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of  two-thirds of his army 
ver the river is more than a raid. 
I speculate  here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in 
etail as they came  up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always 
ought, why wouldn't  he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he 
ould need to be to  exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and 
altimore.  What's  west of it? Breezewood?
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012,  at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com
 
 Hello.
 
 You are  correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are 
ettled on the  GDG.
 
 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers  that grandiosize 
ee to an unsubstainable level.
 
 Thus, the  Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the 
reat Emancipator,  even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know 
t.)
 
  There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy  
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
  
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 BTW: Haupt thought  that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
 
 
  
 
 I have cut the thread as the length was getting  onerous.
 
 
 
 
 
  
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
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-----------------------------
Message: 88
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:29:26 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11606.3615928.3c50d116 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
You are a good man, my friend George.

 have tuff standards for respect.  Please... tell me I  am full of crap 
ny time....  It's good for me  when it comes  from  people,who explain to me 
e why.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at me.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave  you the precise references. Put down 
he shovel and look them  up!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM,  CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
  Jack...
 
 I am having some issues with the illustrious George  in the  matter.
 
 He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps  east of the Susq R and  invest 
 Harrisburg.
 
 Can  you please address him in this matter?
 
 I really like the guy  but I don't see no investment of the  city.
 
 Please talk  to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man 
hat I  
 think it is worth the effort.
 
 ;-{)    !!!!!
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter   
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,  
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
 
  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 
 ----- Original Message  ----- 
 From: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
  To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January  24, 2012 4:26  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
  
 
 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 
 When  we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I was  
eft
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,   being in 
 possession
 of some common sense, and being able to  read maps, was  using Harrisburg 
he
 way a matador uses a red  cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP 
ushing
 wildly after  him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
 
 Sending a  force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.   
ut
 it made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped  on the East 
 side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent  the  AOP home with its tail 
etween
 its legs. (Then he could move  on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or 
herever.)
 
 Of  course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have  
sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the  warehouses, and waited for 
he
 inevitable reaction- but waited on  the  West side of the river.
 
 Regards,
 
  TB
 
 Hello.
 
 You are  correct, we have  discussed this before. But no issues are 
ettled 
 on 
  the  GDG.
 
 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee  admirers that  
randiosize 
 Lee 
 to an unsubstainable  level.
 
 Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same  way about Lincoln the 
reat 
 Emancipator, even  though that is an  unrealistic perception and I know 
t.)
 
 There was  never  any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
 Harrisburg.  But,  as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).
  
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 BTW: Haupt thought  that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail lines.
 
 
  
 
 I have cut the thread as the  length was getting   onerous.
 
 
 
 
 
  
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
   -to unsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 89
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:32:10 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <A80762BC-D493-4B77-906C-44295FD56425 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Jack,
I think you need to take another look at a map!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
 
 Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 ----- Original Message ----- From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
 To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
 
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
> 
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.
> 
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and  invest
> Harrisburg.
> 
> Can you please address him in this matter?
> 
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the  city.
> 
> Please talk to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man that I
> think it is worth the effort.
> 
> ;-{)   !!!!!
> 
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
> 
> 
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
> 
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> 
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was  using Harrisburg the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
> 
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry. But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
> 
> Of course, things never got that far,  but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited for the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the river.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> TB
> 
> Hello.
> 
> You are  correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the  GDG.
> 
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that  grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
> 
> Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even  though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
> 
> There was  never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But,  as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jack
> 
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have cut the thread as the  length was getting  onerous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
> 
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------------------------------
Message: 90
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:15 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327462395.40834.YahooMailNeo at web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.

Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.

Regards,

Jack
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and? invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the? city.
>
> Please talk to him about this.? I have such high regard? for the man that 
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{)?  !!!!!
>
> A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom? Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26? PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months? ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,? being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was? using Harrisburg 
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to? have the AOP 
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.?  Preferably cavalry. 
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving? force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the? AOP home with its tail 
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,? Buffalo, Syracuse or 
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far,? but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned? the warehouses, and waited for 
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the? West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are? correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the? GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that? grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even? though that is an unrealistic perception and I know 
> it.)
>
> There was? never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But,? as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal? WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the? length was getting? onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>? -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 91
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:34:56 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <1184a.5d2a2000.3c50d260 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I HAVE got to learn how my computer works. My fingers  need only whisp past 
he keyboard and it wanders off.  I am  sorry.

nyway George,  I am in the GDG to learn-  I'll  fight & argue anytime but 
how me I am wrong and I'll admit  it. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:30:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
WMHTours at aol.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ou are a good man, my friend George.
I have  tuff standards for respect.  Please... tell me I  am full of crap  
ny time....  It's good for me  when it comes  from   people,who explain to 
e 
e why.
A  Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
eter  

n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10  P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
eorgeconnell at me.com  writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
I  didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave  you the precise references. Put down 

he shovel and look them  up!
Regards,
George
On  Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM,  CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
  Jack...
 
 I am having  some issues with the illustrious George  in the  matter.
  
 He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps  east of the Susq R  and  invest 
 Harrisburg.
 
 Can  you please  address him in this matter?
 
 I really like the guy  but I  don't see no investment of the  city.
 
 Please talk   to him about this.  I have such high regard  for the man 
hat  I  
 think it is worth the effort.
 
 ;-{)   !!!!!
 
 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
  Peter   
 
 
 In a message dated 1/24/2012  9:27:47 P.M. Eastern  Standard Time,  
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com  writes:
 
  Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
  
 ----- Original Message  ----- 
 From: "Tom  Barrett"  <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
  To: "'GDG'"   <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January  24, 2012  4:26  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
   
 
 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 
  When  we discussed this in some detail a couple of months  ago, I  was  
eft
 with the impression that most everybody agreed that  Lee,   being in 
 possession
 of some common sense,  and being able to  read maps, was  using 
arrisburg 
he
  way a matador uses a red  cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP  
ushing
 wildly after  him (like a bull) and to defeat  it  piecemeal.
 
 Sending a  force into Harrisburg was  a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.  

ut
 it  made no sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped  on the  
ast 
 side
 of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent   the  AOP home with its tail 
etween
 its legs. (Then he could  move  on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or 
herever.)
  
 Of  course, things never got that far,  but I think he  would have  
sacked"
 Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad,  burned  the  warehouses, and waited 
or 
he
 inevitable  reaction- but waited on  the  West side of the river.
  
 Regards,
 
  TB
 
 Hello.
  
 You are  correct, we have  discussed this before. But no  issues are 
ettled 
 on 
  the  GDG.
  
 There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee  admirers  that  
randiosize 
 Lee 
 to an unsubstainable   level.
 
 Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the  same  way about Lincoln the 
reat 
 Emancipator, even   though that is an  unrealistic perception and I know 
t.)
  
 There was  never  any intent, nor was there ever any means,  to occupy 
 Harrisburg.  But,  as you point out, it was a  good idea (and it  worked).
  
 Regards,
  
 Jack
 
 BTW: Haupt thought  that Lee's goal   WAS to wreck the rail lines.
 
 
  
 
  I have cut the thread as the  length was getting    onerous.
 
 
 
 
 
   
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-----------------------------
Message: 92
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:39:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11a4b.7497fa6c.3c50d389 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff!  Don't let him know that!

o you know what kind of trouble we are going to have in here  once he 
iggers that out?

SSSHHHH Don't say anything.  Maybe he won't  notice.

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:33:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways,  the  Sus, flows almost flat out N-S

amaste
Jeff  Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
  
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally  runs east and west.

Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while  Lee looked at it.

Regards,

Jack
-----  Original Message ----- 
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I  am having some issues with the illustrious George in the   matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of  the Susq R and  invest
> Harrisburg.
>
>  Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really  like the guy but I don't see no investment of the   city.
>
> Please talk to him about this.  I have such  high regard  for the man 
hat 
> I
> think it is  worth the effort.
>
> ;-{)    !!!!!
>
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>  Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47  P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com  writes:
>
> Esteemed  GDG Member  Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: "Tom  Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To:  "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January  24, 2012 4:26  PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a  couple of months  ago, I was 
eft
> with the impression that  most everybody agreed that Lee,  being in
>  possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps,  was  using 
arrisburg 
> the
> way a matador uses a  red cape. His real intent was to  have the AOP 
>  rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it   piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good  idea.   Preferably cavalry. 
> But
> it made no  sense for him to get a slow moving  force trapped on the East
>  side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home  with its tail 
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move  on to Boston,  Buffalo, Syracuse or 
>  wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far,   but I think he would have 
sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the  railroad, burned  the warehouses, and waited 
or 
>  the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the  West side of the  river.
>
> Regards,
>
>  TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are   correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are 
ettled
>  on
> the  GDG.
>
> There is a certain  innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that  
randiosize
>  Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the  Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the  
reat
> Emancipator, even  though that is an unrealistic  perception and I know 
> it.)
>
> There  was  never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to  occupy
> Harrisburg. But,  as you point out, it was a good idea  (and it  worked).
>
>  Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt  thought that Lee's goal  WAS to wreck the rail  lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut  the thread as the  length was getting   onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
>  
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>   -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for  Archives
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 93
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:42:02 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <803D5989C6234F26AD65F153F1C606E5 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jack,

 First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
eorge, here is what Faulkner said.
as Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said 
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about 
eart attacks.
nd I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
ou overreact.
 For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants 
t, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July 
fternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the 
uns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already 
oosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and 
is hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill 
aiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it 
asn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet 
ut there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those 
ircumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and 
ilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come 
oo far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a 
ourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much 
o lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the 
olden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable 
ictory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago.
- William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust


 Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in 
 support.
I am not sure what this is all about.
>
 Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long 
 discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
I think this is the same thing.

On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to 
cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was 
planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army 
over the river is more than a raid.
Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was 
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
efore you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek 
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a 
atural barrier.
 > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in 
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always 
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he 
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and 
altimore.  What's west of it? Breezewood?
Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans 
here.
George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you 
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But 
k, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
he only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
TW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
HAT is patronizing.
Regards,
ack
What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
" <gettysburg at arthes.com
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled 
> on the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize 
> Lee to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know 
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
>  -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives

 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
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------------------------------
Message: 94
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:44:06 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <9308F25064DA424EAAEA1806479DDE91 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
egards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S

amaste
Jeff Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.

Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.

Regards,

Jack
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{)   !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 95
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:48:29 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11e75.2571dc72.3c50d58d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
No fool....   Once again you have it all  wrong.  It flows from the Gulf 
orthwards up the Mississippi north to the  Susq R where it also starts 
lowing north. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
hat means the Susquehanna flows south from  harrisburg to the gulf?
egards,
Jack
---- Original Message  ----- 
rom: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33  PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member  Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost  flat out N-S

amaste
Jeff  Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs  east and west.

Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee  looked at it.

Regards,

Jack
-----  Original Message ----- 
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I  am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of  the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you  please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the  guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please  talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>  I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
>  ;-{)   !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>  jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a  couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most  everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some  common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>  the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the  AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to  defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg  was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.
> But
>  it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the  East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he  could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>  wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I  think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad,  burned the warehouses, and waited for
> the
> inevitable  reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
>  Regards,
>
> TB
>
>  Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before.  But no issues are 
ettled
> on
> the  GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee  admirers that grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable  level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same  way about Lincoln the 
reat
> Emancipator, even though that is an  unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
>  There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to  occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and  it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
>  Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck  the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I  have cut the thread as the length was getting  onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
>  
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>  -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives
>
>
>  
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-----------------------------
Message: 96
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:55:13 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <20567FE5DD85493FBB1731788B3C755A at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Don't read this in the morning.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:48 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 No fool....   Once again you have it all  wrong.  It flows from the Gulf
 northwards up the Mississippi north to the  Susq R where it also starts
 flowing north.

 A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
 Peter


 In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:

 Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
 That means the Susquehanna flows south from  harrisburg to the gulf?
 Regards,

 Jack
 ----- Original Message  ----- 
 From: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
 To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33  PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


 Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
 Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost  flat out 
 N-S


 Namaste

 Jeff  Burk


>________________________________
> From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs  east and west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee  looked at it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>-----  Original Message ----- 
>From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I  am having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of  the Susq R and invest
>> Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you  please address him in this matter?
>>
>> I really like the  guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please  talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>>  I
>> think it is worth the effort.
>>
>>  ;-{)   !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>  jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26  PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a  couple of months ago, I was 
>> left
>> with the impression that most  everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>> possession
>> of some  common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>>  the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the  AOP
>> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to  defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg  was a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.
>> But
>>  it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the 
>> East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the  AOP home with its tail
>> between
>> its legs. (Then he  could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>>  wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I  think he would have 
>> "sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad,  burned the warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable  reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>>  Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before.  But no issues are
 settled
>> on
>> the  GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee  admirers that 
>> grandiosize
>> Lee
>> to an unsubstainable  level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same  way about Lincoln the
 Great
>> Emancipator, even though that is an  unrealistic perception and I know
>> it.)
>>
>>  There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to  occupy
>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and  it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>  Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck  the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I  have cut the thread as the length was getting  onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>  -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/  for Archives
>>
>>
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>>
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>
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 m
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------------------------------
Message: 97
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:23 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327466183.4761.YahooMailNeo at web114603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

From:?Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o:?GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>?
ent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
ubject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S

Namaste

eff Burk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

o, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything 
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. ?:)

espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
 ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina

ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, 
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who 
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 98
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:38:19 -0500 (EST)
rom: atmackeyjr at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <8CEA9324BB6ADE8-AF4-40F9 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

ome interesting points: Jackson had family who lived in the area and had 
isited the Harrisburg area prior to the war.  He was familiar with the area and 
ith the Susquehanna.  One can be forgiven for wondering what kinds of 
iscussions the two had in the winter of '62-'63 and in the weeks prior to 
hancellorsville regarding the possibility of capturing Pennsylvania's capital 
ity.
Best Regards,
l Mackey

----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell georgeconnell at mac
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:11 pm
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ter,
ome relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond 
th his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told 
m that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad 
idge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). 
e also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of 
e Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg 
 three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
?  Lee to Ewell:  ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R., 
, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich 
ohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
?  Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the 
squehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between 
rrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose 
is objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to 
e Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around 
rlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but 
ll go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg 
body Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances. 
 changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony 
castro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 
27/6
?  In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait 
r Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a 
cture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
ow that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets 
petitious. 
ou can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is 
ubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the 
squehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
eorge
?11'56"N   81?48'19W"

------------------------------
Message: 99
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:55:32 -0500 (EST)
rom: atmackeyjr at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <8CEA934B34C683E-AF4-41B7 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 pay local taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the 
usquehanna River.  There must be some reason they don't call it the South Shore 
ax Bureau.  : )
Best Regards,
l Mackey

-----Original Message-----
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ck, you are holding the map sideways,  the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
eff Burk

------------------------------
Message: 100
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:10:59 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <014F4A529E9D4EE289FEA7D567683487 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one 
onference room.
o when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back 
nd sit at a picknik table.
t wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River 
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the 
innesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is 
n the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a 
leasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are 
ant when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the 
ocale.
hey pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south 
o north river in the country.
 pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville 
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below 
emphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee 
lows NORTH also.
o, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow 
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to 
est.
 couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me 
hey were correct.
So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go 
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
his is not to patronize anyone.
ow that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to 
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? 
till 500 miles away from home?
regards,
jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:


 From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
 To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S


 Namaste

 Jeff Burk

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with 
 everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)

 Respectfully,

 William Richardson
 Mount Gilead, North Carolina


 Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
 America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four 
 long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of 
 denial.
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
  -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 


------------------------------
Message: 101
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:12:20 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <309E9FA57D4E480BB9E2E5B9B1ED6042 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Ignorance?
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: <atmackeyjr at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:55 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

 I pay local taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the 
 Susquehanna River.  There must be some reason they don't call it the South 
 Shore Tax Bureau.  : )

 Best Regards,
 Al Mackey



 -----Original Message-----
 From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
 To: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com
 Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm
 Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 ack, you are holding the map sideways,  the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S

 Namaste

 eff Burk

 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
  -to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 


------------------------------
Message: 102
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:43 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327468543.61054.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE course towards the bay when it hits 
entral Pa.?, but never does it take a east course.

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
Regards,

Jack
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S


Namaste

Jeff Burk


>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
>> Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you please address him in this matter?
>>
>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>> I
>> think it is worth the effort.
>>
>> ;-{)?  !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>> possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>> the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.?  Preferably cavalry.
>> But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>> between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>> wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
>> on
>> the GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
>> Lee
>> to an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
>> it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 103
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:23:34 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327469014.86783.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are 
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow 
elow Harrisburg.

ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
?Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference 
oom.
So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back 
nd sit at a picknik table.
It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously 
ot the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At 
hat point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay 
atershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The 
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are 
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to 
orth river in the country.
I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along 
aldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until 
t flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also.
No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from 
he headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me 
hey were correct.

So the Susquehanna flows east to west.

Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.

And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go 
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
This is not to patronize anyone.
Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do 
ith those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 
iles away from home?

regards,

jack
----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> 
> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
> 
> 
> Namaste
> 
> Jeff Burk
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything 
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> William Richardson
> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
> 
> 
> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long 
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? 
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 



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------------------------------
Message: 104
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:57 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <1ufbn27yyo290msyfh6mdb40.1327445937319 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks.
 meant was it used to cool the plant.
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer 
s that on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the 
ork Haven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant.


?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk


>________________________________
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>  
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
>Regards,
>Jack
>
>Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is 
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed 
ree. 
>>
>>
>>?Namaste
>>?
>>Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very 
>>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
>>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.? 
>>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
>>>capital and RR center.
>>>
>>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>>>
>>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>Peter? 
>>>
>>>
>>>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
>>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to 
>>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the 
>>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from 
>>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV 
>>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it. 
>>>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges 
>>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until 
>>>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later 
>>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily 
>>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered 
ridge 
>>>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the 
lames 
>>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports. 
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards, 
>>>
>>>
>>>Margaret 
>>>
>>>----- Original? Message -----
>>>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net> 
>>>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM? 
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>>>> And 
>>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
>>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over 
>>>without a 
>>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire 
>>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia. 
>>>Regards, Tom B.? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>Dave, 
>>>
>>>Respectfully Sir, 
>>>
>>>I think we disagree,? sir. 
>>>
>>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
>>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
>>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
>>>Gtysbg, 
>>>& Monocacy. 
>>>
>>>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
>>>balanced? combination. 
>>>
>>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 
>>>
>>>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>>>
>>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
>>>
>>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
>>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
>>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
>>>without a 
>>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 
>>>
>>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 
>>>
>>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
>>>Everything else was a subset. 
>>>
>>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
>>>Peter? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>>? -to unsubscribe 
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>>>
>>>
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Message: 105
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:34:40 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2ildh0qvg38fpce21r3q3ih4.1327469680470 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
And it goes east
Am I.  The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the 
ourse of the Susquehanna?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are 
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow 
elow Harrisburg.
?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png

?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk


>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>  
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one 
onference room.
>So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back 
nd sit at a picknik table.
>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously 
ot the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At 
hat point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay 
atershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The 
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are 
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to 
orth river in the country.
>I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville 
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis 
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH 
lso.
>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from 
he headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me 
hey were correct.
>
>So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>
>Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>
>And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go 
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>This is not to patronize anyone.
>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do 
ith those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500 
iles away from home?
>
>regards,
>
>jack
>----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> 
>> 
>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>> 
>> 
>> Namaste
>> 
>> Jeff Burk
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything 
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> 
>> William Richardson
>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>> 
>> 
>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long 
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? 
to unsubscribe
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>> 
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 106
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:03:51 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327475031.86182.YahooMailNeo at web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
?From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ccording to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.?
Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in 
tsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border 
nd across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake 
ay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.??
?It runs mostly North & South....Not East to West Jack.?
Thank you and goodnight....

espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
 ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina

ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, 
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who 
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 107
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:11:22 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <fee7vua1vaim7wpsf775nsyr.1327475482676 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The watershed I'd east.
egards 
ack

William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
?From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.

Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.

Regards,

Jack?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


According to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.?

Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in 
tsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border 
nd across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake 
ay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.??

?It runs mostly North & South....Not East to West Jack.?

Thank you and goodnight....
?
Respectfully,

? ? ?William Richardson
? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina


Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America, 
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who 
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
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------------------------------
Message: 108
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:07:40 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <18c43.50fc9c3.3c514a8b at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff Burk-

y friend-

ho are you?

o you live in Penn?  I am in DC.

hy don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and  chili?

e'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam.  It is 7AM  and I  woke up an 
our ago worrying about the the dam full  of silt would burst and poison the 
hesapeake.  Not the first time I  couldn't sleep worrying about the 
onowingo. 

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
o Jack it does not.  It does take a SSE  course towards the bay when it 
its central Pa. , but never does it take  a east course.

amaste
Jeff  Burk

________________________________
 From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
  
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
That means the Susquehanna flows south from  harrisburg to the gulf?
Regards,

Jack
-----  Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Burk"  <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River


Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the  Sus, flows almost flat out  
-S


Namaste

Jeff  Burk


>________________________________
>  From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I  ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and  west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee  looked at  it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>-----  Original Message ----- 
>From:  <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To:  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I am  having some issues with the illustrious George in the  matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps  east of the Susq R and invest
>>  Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you please address him in this  matter?
>>
>> I really like the guy but I don't see  no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please talk to him  about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>>  I
>> think it is worth the  effort.
>>
>> ;-{)    !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>  Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated  1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>  jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message  ----- 
>> From: "Tom Barrett"  <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some  detail a couple of months ago, I was 
eft
>> with the impression  that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>>  possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps,  was using Harrisburg
>> the
>> way a matador uses a  red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>>  rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it  piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was  a good idea.   Preferably cavalry.
>>  But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force  trapped on the East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna  until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>>  between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo,  Syracuse or
>> wherever.)
>>
>> Of  course, things never got that far, but I think he would have  
sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the  warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable  reaction- but waited on the West side of the  river.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>>  Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this  before. But no issues are 
ettled
>> on
>> the  GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in  many Lee admirers that 
randiosize
>> Lee
>> to an  unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as  doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the 
reat
>>  Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I  know
>> it.)
>>
>> There was never any  intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>> Harrisburg.  But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it  worked).
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>  BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail  lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  I have cut the thread as the length was getting  onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
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------------------------------
Message: 109
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:08:38 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <18c7b.3e81a5f3.3c514ac6 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
YES!

  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter  
 
n a message dated 1/25/2012 1:08:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
nd it goes east
Am I.  The only one  who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining 
he course of the  Susquehanna?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>  wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You can always find  a bend in a river to prove what you say.  But you are 
rong.  Here  is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w 
low below  Harrisburg.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png

 Namaste
 
Jeff  Burk


>________________________________
>  From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012  12:10 AM
>Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna  River
>  
>Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building  that had only one 
onference room.
>So when one side had to present  their case the other side had to go out 
ack and sit at a picknik  table.
>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the  Red River 
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on  the Minnesota 
side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is  in the 
udson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a  pleasant 
fternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want  when out 
f towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the  locale.
>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River  was the only 
outh to north river in the country.
>I pointed out  that the Tennesse River flows north to south from 
ashville along Waldens  Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to 
elow 
emphis until it  flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee 
lows NORTH  also.
>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction  of the 
low from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows  east to 
est.
>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on  another issue who 
old me they were correct.
>
>So the  Susquehanna flows east to west.
>
>Harrisburg may be east  of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>
>And when I  drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I 
o north, and  somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>This is  not to patronize anyone.
>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill,  what do you think Lee was going 
o do with those two shot up corp up north,  could and tired and all alone? 
till 500 miles away from  home?
>
>regards,
>
>jack
>-----  Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson"  
general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36  PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna  River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> 
>> 
>> From: Jeff Burk  <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>> To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012  10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>  
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack, you  are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out 
N-S
>> 
>> 
>> Namaste
>>  
>> Jeff Burk
>> 
>>  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
>>  
>> 
>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT  about this as he is with 
verything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong.  :)
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>>  
>> William Richardson
>> Mount Gilead, North  Carolina
>> 
>> 
>> Pro-Excuser: People  who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and  under supplied, could kick their butts for four 
ong years. Who resort to all  kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>  
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com   
to unsubscribe
>>  http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for  Archives
>>  
>
>
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-----------------------------
Message: 110
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:42:03 +0000 (UTC)
rom: Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn <member at linkedin.com>
o: John Gross Gdg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
essage-ID:
<645747031.12799772.1327498923303.JavaMail.app at ela4-bed79.prod>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
LinkedIn
-----------


   Ron Chaplin requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:
 
------------------------------------------
John Gross,
I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.
- Ron
Accept invitation from Ron Chaplin
ttp://www.linkedin.com/e/cmimsm-gxuel0rl-48/q-RiaR17_P2jQ7NH-eBVUPYP-gCEstUgI9/blk/I175951119_60/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYMdBYVcj4NdjARdP59bSFJkSN9kQxJbPkTe3kNd3cRdzkLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=false&tok=26Lgy_w3aSCl41
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Message: 111
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:59:35 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E41E at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks Jeff.
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:15 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
i Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it 
as built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in 
913.

Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
 From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
  
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff:

Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below 
City Island across from the city?

Thanks,

-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com 
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is 
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed 
ree. 


?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk


>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but 
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an 
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the? 
iver.
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state 
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using 
>it to cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg 
>is on the east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack 
>the city from both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? 
>destruction, the ANV generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it 
nd? tried to save it.
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but 
>bridges were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't 
>another until Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? 
>be rebuilt later but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of 
>precision? wasn't easily obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge 
>was a wood &? stone covered bridge believed to be the longest such 
>bridge in the world at? the time and the flames that destroyed the wood, 
eaving only the granite? supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>>>> And
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing 
>over without a whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was 
>destroyed, by fire (not the granite supports? of course), by Union 
>militia.
>Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com? 
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM 
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com? 
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat 
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes: 
>Dave, 
>
>Respectfully Sir, 
>
>I think we disagree,? sir. 
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying 
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as 
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam, 
>Gtysbg, 
>& Monocacy. 
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a 
>balanced? combination. 
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil. 
>
>The Hammer was Jackson. 
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse. 
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about 
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And 
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big 
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over 
>without a 
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble? 
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces 
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force. 
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North. 
>Everything else was a subset. 
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist, 
>Peter? 
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 112
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:41 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <FFC24AA2-64E6-43A5-AAEA-CDAA8505A837 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to 
ay Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We 
hould all just give up now!
Regards,
George
On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 And it goes east
 
 Am I.  The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the 
ourse of the Susquehanna?
 Regards,
 Jack
 
 Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.  But you are 
rong.  Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow 
elow Harrisburg.
>  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
> 
>  Namaste
>  
> Jeff Burk
> 
> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one 
onference room.
>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back 
nd sit at a picknik table.
>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River 
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota 
ide. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson 
ay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The 
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are 
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south 
o north river in the country.
>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville 
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis 
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH 
lso.
>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow 
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me 
hey were correct.
>> 
>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>> 
>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>> 
>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go 
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>> This is not to patronize anyone.
>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to 
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 
00 miles away from home?
>> 
>> regards,
>> 
>> jack
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>> 
>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Namaste
>>> 
>>> Jeff Burk
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything 
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> 
>>> William Richardson
>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long 
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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to unsubscribe
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>> 
>> 
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------------------------------
Message: 113
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:13 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e456a02f1df23.4f20135d at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<<   If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as 
e stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the 
ther side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that 
ee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight 
he AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need 
ll his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various 
nion corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by 
 rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one 
nother.  >>
Which is quite a few caveats, and a lot of stuff he didn't have, and wasn't 
ikely to get.  And if he does cross the Susquehanna, getting back over now 
nvolves the far shore still being hostile territory, not VA.  
till, I do think he intended to cross a major force, if possible.  I wonder, 
hough, if his preference wouldn't have been to continue to maneuver, and maybe 
ight against any isolated Union force he might encounter, rather than risk a 
eneral engagement under such circumstances.  Although I can't say I've ever 
evoted much thought to the matter, since it never did happen.  
ust as a thought, while it wouldn't have been something he could have 
nticipated at the time, the post-battle rains which made crossing back into VA 
o difficult could have created an extremely critical situation for Lee if he 
eed to recross the Susquehanna in a hurry after a reverse on the eastern side 
f the river and had no bridges available.  
Jim Cameron

-----------------------------
Message: 114
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:54:10 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <e493876c1fe93.4f201792 at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<<  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
o what's wrong with an Italian captain? If you follow him closely you'll 
e the 2nd person off the boat when it starts to sink. Nuttin wrong with 
hat.
;-{)
Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but 
 hope it will make people leave me alone. A lot of Libertarians ask too 
any questions. 
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter   >>
Please SNIP when replying to another post, and if possible select the option in 
our e-mail program NOT to include the previous post in your reply.  These 
engthy replies filled with previous posts end up generating needless digests, 
or those members who participate that way.  
his is not directed just at you, by the way, but to a number of members who 
hould know better by now.   And it's becoming more important what with more and 
ore people participating Thanks,
im Cameron 

-----------------------------
Message: 115
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:15 -0500
rom: Bob Coffman <bcoffman at ohio.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <4F20180F.1080607 at ohio.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

om B,
I'm also very grateful!  More stuff to read!
- Bob
On 1/24/2012 7:24 PM, Tom wrote:
 Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click
 on it - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format -
 they are priceless

------------------------------
Message: 116
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:38 -0800 (PST)
rom: Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<1327503578.60823.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack- Actually HACC does offer those classes for potential Licensed Battlefield 
uides, but only in the year in
hich the test will be offered.? They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from 
ugust thru Nov. and the test
as in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test, 
issed the cut off score by 12 points.
ook 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not 
ure about, and took the test in Dec.
65 people took the test in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18.? I am still 
aiting to give my oral test sometime
his year. They have not announce when the next test will be given.

ancy Householder
estminster, MD

________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
o. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the 
ay after the battle.
he NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a 
artnership of sorts ever since.
an you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, 
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally 
ood.
hey do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired 
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the 
ACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's 
ork in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the 
inituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
Regards,
Jack


9
---- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
ubject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
 
 At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other 
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in 
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg 
nd tour some of those battlefields.
 
 Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one 
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?? Or does anyone know of 
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which 
ne could hire a guide?
 
 It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you 
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge 
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle 
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes 
ense).
 
 Thanks,
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------------------------------
Message: 117
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:14:25 -0800 (PST)
rom: Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<1327504465.71195.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour 
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the 
Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the 
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
5 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the 
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors
enter and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you 
an explain the battle in the time frame of
n average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to 
ersonalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG
ill pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include 
omething about each of those states in your tour.
he reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have 
o show that you can personalize the tour 
for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.

 lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very 
ell. For a two hour time frame,
ou need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the 
nowledge to be able to answer
uestions that people might ask.
Nancy Householder
future LBG

________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
s I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they 
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being 
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written 
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, 
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 <<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not 
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the 
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who 
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about 
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years 
go.? >>
 
 As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a 
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one 
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
 
 Jim Cameron
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------------------------------
Message: 118
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:35:04 -0600
rom: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: GDG- Heads-Up - Guide Exam
essage-ID: <20120125073511.D8806CC3 at dm0207.mta.everyone.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Hi,

 am forwarding the following information from Fred Hawthorne.
Take Care
Dennis

>I wanted to give you a "heads-up" that the park is 99.5% sure that they
WILL be giving the Gettysburg guide exam this year after all.  It is
tentatively scheduled for Saturday, December 1, 2012. Previously they had
announced that another exam would not be held until "2013 at the
earliest." That has now changed.

In the past Harrisburg Area Community College has run a series of
guide-led classes leading up to the exam.  Since the demise of HACC's
Continuing Education department the future of those classes was up in the
air. The ALBG was the original sponsor of those programs before turning
them over to HACC many, many years ago when I was still President of the
group.  We recently decided to take the program back and are busily
working on lining up facilities and instructors to run the guide test-prep
program starting this August. Precise details will be posted on the ALBG
website at some point before the end of the month.

If you know any members of your Gettysburg Discussion Group who have a
burning desire to become guides here this information may be of value to
them so please feel free to pass it on.  Of course they would need to
contact Guide Supervisor Clyde Bell at the park (1195 Baltimore Pike,
Gettysburg, PA 17325) to make certain their name gets put on the list.



Regards,

Fred Hawthorne


------------------------------
Message: 119
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:47:26 -0500
rom: Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <619B06A7-474E-4C0A-B63E-7694504921EC at zbzoom.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
What is timeframe during which classes are given by HAAC? How is it structured?
hx
lso wanna thank George for sharing his notes
 scholar and a gentleman!
ave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:59 AM, Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 Jack- Actually HACC does offer those classes for potential Licensed 
attlefield Guides, but only in the year in
 which the test will be offered.  They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from 
ugust thru Nov. and the test
 was in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test, 
issed the cut off score by 12 points.
 Took 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not 
ure about, and took the test in Dec.
 165 people took the test in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18.  I am still 
aiting to give my oral test sometime
 this year. They have not announce when the next test will be given.
 
 
 Nancy Householder
 Westminster, MD
 
 
 
 ________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
 To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM
 Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
 
 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the 
ay after the battle.
 The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a 
artnership of sorts ever since.
 Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service, 
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
 
 The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally 
ood.
 They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
 
 In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired 
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
 
 But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at 
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do 
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of 
he minituae of the field.
 
 Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jack
 
 
 
 
 
 9
 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
 To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
 Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
 
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
> 
> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other 
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in 
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg 
nd tour some of those battlefields.
> 
> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one 
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?  Or does anyone know of 
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which 
ne could hire a guide?
> 
> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in 
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you 
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge 
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle 
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes 
ense).
> 
> Thanks,
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
 
 
 
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Message: 120
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:52:27 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E5EC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Nancy:
I can see how important it is to stay in the timeframe.  When I take friends to 
ettysburg (and by no means do I have even an ounce of the knowledge of the tour 
uides), I find myself talking for two hours and we haven't even left 
cPherson's Ridge.  I think it would take a lot of hard work to come up with a 
ethod to do this and be successful.   
Out of curiosity:  if you pass the written test and are on the list for the oral 
xam and fail the oral part, do you have to start over with the written test 
gain, or can you put your name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and 
ork on getting a better delivery and retake that part only?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On 
ehalf Of Nancy Householder
ent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:14 AM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour 
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the 
Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the 
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
5 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the 
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors Center and ends when you get back 
here.? The point to this, is to see if you can explain the battle in the time 
rame of an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also 
ave to personalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG will pretend they are from two 
ifferent states, so you have to include something about each of those states in 
our tour.
he reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have 
o show that you can personalize the tour 
for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.

 lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very 
ell. For a two hour time frame, you need to generalize a lot.? The written test 
s to show that you have the knowledge to be able to answer questions that 
eople might ask.
Nancy Householder
future LBG

________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

steemed GDG Member Contributes:
s I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they 
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being 
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written 
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, 
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides

 Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 <<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are 
 not unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system 
 and, IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield 
 guide was O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and 
 began giving tours when he was about fifteen. The current guide 
 service was started a little more than five years ago.? >>
 
 As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a 
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one 
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
 
 Jim Cameron
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arth
 es.com? -to unsubscribe 
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 

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------------------------------
Message: 121
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:08:01 -0500 (EST)
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <10b04.1dbc7efe.3c5182e1 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

n a message dated 1/25/2012 10:55:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
if you  pass the written test and are on the list for the oral exam and 
ail the oral  part, do you have to start over with the written test again, or 
an you put  your name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and work 
n getting a  better delivery and retake that part only?

ou must go thru the entire process again, including passing the written  
xam.

ndy Ward

------------------------------
Message: 122
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:08:12 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold
out against a large force
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E614 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In reading one of the articles posted earlier ( http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/essay4.pdf 
, on page 144, Halleck is quoted as to have said:  "Neither this
apital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out against a large force. They must 
epend for their security very much upon the co-operation of your army"
It has been said in this forum that Washington was a nearly impenetrable 
ortress and the ANV could never actually capture the city.
But this quote makes it seem that he feared very much for the safety of DC and I 
ave to believe Lincoln would also feel this way, or Halleck wouldn't be able to 
end such telegrams to the army.
Did they see a reality that is we don't see today?  Were the forces that 
efending Washington DC impressive on paper, but troops to which you couldn't 
ely on when the fighting got heated?  In 1863, how many troops defended the 
apitol and were they mostly green troops with short enlistments?   What makes 
s today claim DC was unable to be taken when the military men of the time 
hought the exact opposite?
I know there are a lot of questions, but I am trying to figure out the 
ifferences in beliefs and if this is all with the hindsight of history to know 
ee / ANV / Confederacy never had the capabilities the Union / US high command 
elieved they were capable of.
Thanks,

-----------------------------
Message: 123
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:15:45 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <6B6A6B1A-8716-4DF7-B44F-66D834C3242F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack,
I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you 
an recite it from memory.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
 To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
 
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack,
> 
> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
 George, here is what Faulkner said.
 Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said 
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart 
ttacks.
 And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
 You overreact.
 
 For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, 
here is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon 
n 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid 
nd ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out 
nd Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand 
robably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet 
o give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't 
ven begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not 
o begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than 
arnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, 
e all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment 
oesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time 
ith all this much to lose than all this much
 to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington 
tself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, 
he cast made two years ago.
 
 - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
 
 
> 
> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in 
upport.
 
 I am not sure what this is all about.
 >
> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long 
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
 
 I think this is the same thing.
 
 
> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to 
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was 
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over 
he river is more than a raid.
 
 Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was 
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
 Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
 
 Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek 
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural 
arrier.
 
 > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail 
s they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why 
ouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be 
o exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore.  What's west 
f it? Breezewood?
 
 Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans 
here.
 
 George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you 
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, 
his is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
 The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
 BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
 THAT is patronizing.
 
 Regards,
 Jack
 
 What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
 
 " <gettysburg at arthes.com
>> 
>> Hello.
>> 
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on 
he GDG.
>> 
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee 
o an unsubstainable level.
>> 
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
>> 
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com  
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
 
 
 
 ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
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-----------------------------
Message: 124
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:05 -0600
rom: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <20120125081912.D88EEA8B at dm0201.mta.everyone.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

  Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite 
 it from memory.
ello,
      Along with the Gettysburg address?
Take Care
Dennis

>>>>>>>>>
ou can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. Sure I'd like to 
ape a baseball game without the express written consent of Major 
eague Baseball, but that's just not the way it works. Hank Hill 
------------------------------
Message: 125
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:24:35 -0800
rom: "Robert G Pielke" <rpielke at ca.rr.com>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <000301ccdb7d$d41fa3a0$7c5eeae0$@ca.rr.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
I used the Faulkner quote as the epigraph of my novel A New Birth of
reedom: The Visitor -- wherein there was "still time for it not to happen."
Altered Dimensions Press -- for anyone interested]
"Northerners" know the quote as well....
Bob Pielke
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:16 AM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack,
I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless
ou can recite it from memory.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N   81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
 ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" 
 <georgeconnell at me.com>
 To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
 Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
 
 
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack,
> 
> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
 George, here is what Faulkner said.
 Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I
aid that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing
bout heart attacks.
 And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
 You overreact.
 
 For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants
t, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July
fternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the
uns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already
oosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and
is hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill
aiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it
asn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet
ut there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those
ircumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and
ilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come
oo far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a
ourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much
o lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the
olden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable
ictory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago.
 
 - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
 
 
> 
> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
upport.
 
 I am not sure what this is all about.
 >
> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a
ong discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
 
 I think this is the same thing.
 
 
> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions
o cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he
as planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army
ver the river is more than a raid.
 
 Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
 Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
 
 Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a
atural barrier.
 
 > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and
altimore.  What's west of it? Breezewood?
 
 Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans
here.
 
 George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but
ou have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you
re.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would
atronize.
 The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
 BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
 THAT is patronizing.
 
 Regards,
 Jack
 
 What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
 
 " <gettysburg at arthes.com
>> 
>> Hello.
>> 
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled on the GDG.
>> 
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
ee to an unsubstainable level.
>> 
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the 
>> Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and 
>> I know it.)
>> 
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_ar
>> thes.com  -to unsubscribe 
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_art
> hes.com  -to unsubscribe 
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-----------------------------
Message: 126
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:29:30 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <DC3D11D3-491C-425D-A587-6978C303225F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Touch? !
Regards,
George

n Jan 25, 2012, at 11:19, Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
 
> Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from 
emory.
 Hello,
 
     Along with the Gettysburg address?
 
 Take Care
 
 Dennis
 
 
 >>>>>>>>>
 You can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. Sure I'd like to tape a 
aseball game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, but 
hat's just not the way it works. Hank Hill ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
to unsubscribe
 http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives

------------------------------
Message: 127
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:16:55 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <k3u0ihetk5hg3ngi8ohpphq7.1327511815458 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks nancy. I have learned more from this discussion about guides then I have 
n 20 years of going to gettysburg. 
egards,
ack
Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour 
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the 

Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the 
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
15 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the 
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors
Center and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you 
an explain the battle in the time frame of
an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to 
ersonalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG
will pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include 
omething about each of those states in your tour.
The reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have 
o show that you can personalize the tour 

for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.


A lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very 
ell. For a two hour time frame,
you need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the 
nowledge to be able to answer
questions that people might ask.

Nancy Householder
?future LBG



________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
 
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they 
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being 
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written 
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides, 
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.

Regards,

Jack
----- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> <<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not 
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the 
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who 
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about 
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years 
go.? >>
> 
> As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a 
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one 
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
> 
> Jim Cameron
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? 
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
> 



----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
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------------------------------
Message: 128
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:25:05 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <f2n5i28alrp8gmb25utjevr5.1327512305023 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
And the pledge of allegiance. 
till provides more service members than any other area.
egards,
ack 

eorge Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack,

I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless 
ou can recite it from memory.

Regards,

George
26?11'56"N   81?48'19W"

On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
> 
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack,
>> 
>> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
> George, here is what Faulkner said.
> Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said 
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart 
ttacks.
> And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
> You overreact.
> 
> For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, 
here is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon 
n 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid 
nd ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out 
nd Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand 
robably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet 
o give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't 
ven begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not 
o begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than 
arnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, 
e all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment 
oesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time 
ith all this much to lose than all this muc
h to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington 
tself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, 
he cast made two years ago.
> 
> - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
> 
> 
>> 
>> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in 
upport.
> 
> I am not sure what this is all about.
> >
>> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long 
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
> 
> I think this is the same thing.
> 
> 
>> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to 
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was 
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over 
he river is more than a raid.
> 
> Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was 
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
> Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
> 
> Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek 
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural 
arrier.
> 
> > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in 
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always 
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he 
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and 
altimore.  What's west of it? Breezewood?
> 
> Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans 
here.
> 
> George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you 
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok, 
his is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
> The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
> BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
> THAT is patronizing.
> 
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
> 
> " <gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> 
>>> Hello.
>>> 
>>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled 
n the GDG.
>>> 
>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize 
ee to an unsubstainable level.
>>> 
>>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great 
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
>>> 
>>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy 
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
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Message: 129
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:31:36 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327512696.69846.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
right you are you are George,? Its real sad when you show a person a map proving 
our point and still said person doesn't give up.? 


?Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
From: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to 
ay Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We 
hould all just give up now!

Regards,

George

On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> And it goes east
> 
> Am I.? The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the 
ourse of the Susquehanna?
> Regards,
> Jack
> 
> Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are 
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow 
elow Harrisburg.
>>? 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
>> 
>>? Namaste
>>? 
>> Jeff Burk
>> 
>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>>> 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one 
onference room.
>>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out 
ack and sit at a picknik table.
>>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River 
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota 
ide. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson 
ay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The 
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are 
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south 
o north river in the country.
>>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville 
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis 
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH 
lso.
>>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow 
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told 
e they were correct.
>>> 
>>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>>> 
>>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>>> 
>>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go 
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>>> This is not to patronize anyone.
>>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to 
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 
00 miles away from home?
>>> 
>>> regards,
>>> 
>>> jack
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" 
general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>>> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Namaste
>>>> 
>>>> Jeff Burk
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with 
verything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> 
>>>> William Richardson
>>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of 
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long 
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com? 
to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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to unsubscribe
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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------------------------------
Message: 130
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:34:07 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327512847.62848.YahooMailNeo at web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I live in Lancaster Pa.??

Thank you for your most kind offer concerning Lincoln, but I will be caving in 
V that week end
?Namaste

eff Burk

________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff Burk-

My friend-

Who are you?

Do you live in Penn?? I am in DC.

Why don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and? chili?

We'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam.? It is 7AM? and I? woke up an 
hour ago worrying about the the dam full? of silt would burst and poison the 
Chesapeake.? Not the first time I? couldn't sleep worrying about the 
Conowingo. 

A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter? 


In a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,? 
jlb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:

Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE? course towards the bay when it 
hits central Pa. , but never does it take? a east course.


Namaste

Jeff? Burk


>________________________________
> From: Jack? Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG? <gettysburg at arthes.com> 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44? PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>? 
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>That means the Susquehanna flows south from? harrisburg to the gulf?
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>-----? Original Message ----- 
>From: "Jeff Burk"? <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33? PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the? Sus, flows almost flat out? 
N-S
>
>
>Namaste
>
>Jeff? Burk
>
>
>>________________________________
>>? From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>>To: GDG? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51? PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>I? ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and? west.
>>
>>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee? looked at? it.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Jack
>>-----? Original Message ----- 
>>From:? <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>To:? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33? PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>> Jack...
>>>
>>> I am? having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter.
>>>
>>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps? east of the Susq R and invest
>>>? Harrisburg.
>>>
>>> Can you please address him in this? matter?
>>>
>>> I really like the guy but I don't see? no investment of the city.
>>>
>>> Please talk to him? about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>>>? I
>>> think it is worth the? effort.
>>>
>>> ;-{)? ? !!!!!
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti? Unionist,
>>>? Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated? 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>? jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG? Member Contributes:
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message? ----- 
>>> From: "Tom Barrett"? <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>>> To: "'GDG'"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012? 4:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>>
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>
>>> When we discussed this in some? detail a couple of months ago, I was 
left
>>> with the impression? that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>>>? possession
>>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps,? was using Harrisburg
>>> the
>>> way a matador uses a? red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>>>? rushing
>>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal.
>>>
>>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was? a good idea.? Preferably cavalry.
>>>? But
>>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force? trapped on the East
>>> side
>>> of the Susquehanna? until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>>>? between
>>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo,? Syracuse or
>>> wherever.)
>>>
>>> Of? course, things never got that far, but I think he would have? 
"sacked"
>>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the? warehouses, and waited for
>>> the
>>> inevitable? reaction- but waited on the West side of the? river.
>>>
>>>? Regards,
>>>
>>> TB
>>>
>>>? Hello.
>>>
>>> You are correct, we have discussed this? before. But no issues are 
settled
>>> on
>>> the? GDG.
>>>
>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in? many Lee admirers that 
grandiosize
>>> Lee
>>> to an? unsubstainable level.
>>>
>>> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the 
Great
>>>? Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I? know
>>> it.)
>>>
>>> There was never any? intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>>> Harrisburg.? But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked).
>>>
>>>? Regards,
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>? BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail? lines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>? I have cut the thread as the length was getting? onerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>? 
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