GDG- -Battlefield Tour Guides
sherri watts
sherri410 at aol.com
Wed Jan 25 13:03:09 CST 2012
I truly resent the fact that Peter has to make so many negative comments about the tourists or customers that come to Gettysburg. Also as a Licensed Battlefield Guide Candidate I also resent the way he makes it sound about Gettysburg guides. I have worked my butt off to get to this point and know what it takes to become a guide. I have watched many friends ahead of me work hard. You have to know about the Civil War and everything Gettysburg so it's not a popularity contest. It's about having the knowledge and then showing you can put a tour together that the general public can enjoy and hopefully learn something. This isn't a college class. This is a vacation trip where you should be able to learn, enjoy and not made to feel stupid. To be honest, I hope I NEVER EVER go on a tour with you Peter and am surprised you still work at whatever you do. You seem like a miserable person who had nothing nice to say about the people who are paying you. Instead of calling them stupid, maybe you should appreciate the fact that they want to learn and yes, some want to learn more than others. People should be treated with respect and not made fun of constantly. I'm sure you have a few that may be comical but to call all tourists that is downright mean. Again, I haven't posted here in a long time and it's because of people like you.
Sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-request <gettysburg-request at arthes.com>
To: gettysburg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 1:02 pm
Subject: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 25
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oday's Topics:
1. Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
2. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
3. Re: Wasn't Sickles Right? (CWMHTours at aol.com)
4. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
5. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
6. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
7. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
8. Re: Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills)
9. Re: Wasn't Sickles Right? (cameron2 at optimum.net)
10. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
11. Re: Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24 (idunc at q.com)
12. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (cameron2 at optimum.net)
13. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Jack Lawrence)
14. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
15. Re: ISusquehanna River (Dave Gillespie)
16. Re: Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel)
17. Re: Inevitable defeat (George Connell)
18. Re: Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda. (CWMHTours at aol.com)
19. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
20. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
21. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com)
22. Re: Dave- a Second Response (John Lawrence)
23. Re: Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence)
24. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence)
25. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
26. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (CWMHTours at aol.com)
27. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
28. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
29. Re: My Tummy! (CWMHTours at aol.com)
30. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
31. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
32. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
33. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
34. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net)
35. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
36. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
37. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Tom)
38. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (recker at earthlink.net)
39. Re: Inevitable defeat (Matt Diestel)
40. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
41. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
42. Re: Inevitable defeat (William Richardson)
43. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jeff Burk)
44. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
45. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett)
46. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
47. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
48. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
49. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
50. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
51. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
52. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
53. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
54. Re: ISusquehanna River (Margaret D. Blough)
55. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
56. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
57. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (George Connell)
58. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
59. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
60. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
61. Re: Lee & Harrisburg (CWMHTours at aol.com)
62. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom Barrett)
63. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
64. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
65. Re: Inevitable defeat (CWMHTours at aol.com)
66. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
67. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
68. Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars (Jack Lawrence)
69. Re: ISusquehanna River (Tom)
70. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
71. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
72. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell)
73. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
74. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
75. Re: Inevitable defeat (Jack Lawrence)
76. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
77. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
78. Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence)
79. Re: Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com)
80. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
81. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
82. Re: Raid vs Occupation (Jack Lawrence)
83. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
84. Re: Raid vs Occupation (CWMHTours at aol.com)
85. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell)
86. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
87. Re: Susquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
88. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
89. Re: ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
90. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
91. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
92. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
93. Re: Susquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
94. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
95. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
96. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
97. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
98. Re: ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com)
99. Re: ISusquehanna River (atmackeyjr at aol.com)
100. Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
101. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jack Lawrence)
102. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
103. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
104. Re: Inevitable defeat (John Lawrence)
105. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence)
106. Re: ISusquehanna River (William Richardson)
107. Re: ISusquehanna River (John Lawrence)
108. Re: ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
109. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (CWMHTours at aol.com)
110. Invitation to connect on LinkedIn (Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn)
111. Re: Inevitable defeat (Andy Mills)
112. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (George Connell)
113. Re: ISusquehanna River (cameron2 at optimum.net)
114. Re: Raid vs Occupation (cameron2 at optimum.net)
115. Re: ISusquehanna River (Bob Coffman)
116. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder)
117. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Nancy Householder)
118. Heads-Up - Guide Exam (Dennis Lawrence)
119. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Dave Glorioso)
120. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (Andy Mills)
121. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (AWard61890 at aol.com)
122. Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out
against a large force (Andy Mills)
123. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell)
124. Re: Susquehanna River (Dennis Lawrence)
125. Re: Susquehanna River (Robert G Pielke)
126. Re: Susquehanna River (George Connell)
127. Re: Battlefield Tour Guides (John Lawrence)
128. Re: Susquehanna River (John Lawrence)
129. Re: Red River and ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
130. Re: ISusquehanna River (Jeff Burk)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:01:17 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <2AFD112B7BC5423DB7DF803A94E291B0 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
heir forces prior to the battle.
he ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
rapped, so what the hey.
he AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
umberland that was never going to happen.
hen the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
iecemeal.
Regards,
Jack
The south approached the war itself with a certain sense of invetiability.
I have no division.
et us cross across the river...
ell Hill he must come up.
hat man will fight us every day and every hour till the end of the war.
---- Original Message -----
rom: <joadx1 at netscape.net>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:19 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
It would appear, then, that Lee was quite willing to ignore the Napoleonic
maxims. At Chancellorsville, for example, he divided his army. Jackson's
flanking maneuver was not overwhelming force; it was successful surprise
that succeeded because Lee anticipated Hooker's reaction. Second Manassas
was a successful ambush of an army that didn't know where Longstreet was.
Pickett's Charge was hardly overwhelming force.
In short, Lee made do with the human resources he had, which were never
overwhelming in numbers. He relied on speed and surprise, and on the
morale of his forces. He also relied on his knowledge of the AoP
commanders. A lot of psychology was involved, but rarely, if ever,
overwhelming force.
-----Original Message-----
From: CWMHTours <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tim.
Sir,
When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to
remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are:
1. Always strike with overwhelming force.....
If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E.
Lee.
He was a master of those.
ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was briilliant. If you
were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless
you
are a dumb guy, which fortunately we are not.
Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles
between them and Lee he did the right thing.
The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as
possible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never
successfully
attack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to
bring overwhelming force on the AoP.
If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you
attack with overwhelming force.
It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light.
Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but
I like how it sounds.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
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Message: 2
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:06:23 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <737D4FCD904B49CE943EF2C84BAE5E48 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Since we are using historical metaphors for Lee, here is one for the ages.
The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him
oy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him. For he
ad lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his
articular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to
ake recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other
and, as from a fountain continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp
as quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in
ourage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining
ew force and resolution to go on with the war.
Plutarch
hich pretty much describes every one of lee's "victories"?
Lee would probaly better be forgotten than have his name epitomized as king
yrrhus-asin Pyyrhic victory.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:07 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tim.
Sir,
When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to
remember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are:
1. Always strike with overwhelming force.....
If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E.
Lee.
He was a master of those.
ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was briilliant. If you
were in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless
you
are a dumb guy, which fortunately we are not.
Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles
between them and Lee he did the right thing.
The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as
possible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never
successfully
attack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to
bring overwhelming force on the AoP.
If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you
attack with overwhelming force.
It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light.
Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but
I like how it sounds.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/23/2012 11:36:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
joadx1 at netscape.net writes:
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Message: 3
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:06:43 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right?
essage-ID: <1626b.7d8ea01b.3c504d33 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Apparently, as I recall from Coddington, Meade was surprised by his
orward movement. Meade naturally gave consent to posting his troops according
to beneficial terrain. But Meade did not give consent to moving the whole
II Cps a whole mile in front of the lines of the rest of the AoP.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 11:13:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
n a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV
lanking attack?
Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of
he actions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was
ntending to move a large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the
ase
ater in the day), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to
ebate (that he didn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's
rigade), but I think the final conclusion of his (not the move), that a
arge force of the enemy was moving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP
s a valid conclusion.
What I would like to know though: after "discovering" this flank
ovement, did he inform headquarters about this? Was Meade then made aware of
izable force moving to his south?
Thanks,
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Message: 4
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:14:44 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <167cb.3aaf975a.3c504f14 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but very
ide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
xpeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the
iver.
arrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
apital and RR center.
hre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
om-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it to
ross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on the
ast and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city from
oth sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the ANV
enerals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save it.
he Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but bridges
ere needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another until
arrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt later
ut, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily
btained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered bridge
elieved to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the flames
hat destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
egards,
argaret
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> And
n fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
ranite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
ithout a
hole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
egards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we disagree, sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
nfrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as
ackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam,
tysbg,
Monocacy.
I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
alanced combination.
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
The Hammer was Jackson.
The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned about
estroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
n fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
ranite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
ithout a
hole lot of valuable time and trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces
p north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
verything else was a subset.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
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Message: 5
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:18:50 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E0CC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Peter:
When I have some time finalized, I will let you know to see if you are free. As
said earlier, I don't have anything planned at the moment, but wanted to put
his on the list of places to visit this summer, should I find myself having a
ree weekend.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ndy-
don't come into the GDG to solicit business as a tourguide. It is probably
nappropriate.
ut since you asked I sent an email out of the room but I didn't get your
ddress right and I got a bounce back.
am a Civil War battlefield tour guide. I am kind of like a prostitute.
'll go anywhere anytime. Been taking bus tours to the battlefields for
0 years.
've been prowling the battlefields around DC for 30+ years.
redericksburg- I'd like to go wander around the Slaughter Pen some more.
The northern stonewall is over-rated. The southern end of the battlefield is
ar more interesting.
here is a really really great restaurant on the river- very romantic.
ind of a fancy place now but it it used to be a cheap sports brass and fern
ar. Now called Tru Love's. It has a webvsite. The manager James might
hrow us a free round.
ust so you know, I love being on a battlefield. I go by myself all the time.
'll go anywhere.
f you want a tour guide I will work for chili and beer. Anywhere you
ant to go. You should go on the Booth Escape Route tour with me. Way cool.
ny time anyone from GDG wants to go out and poke around a battlefield I'll do
t for chili and beer. That goes for everyone.
e'll take John Grim. He's fun. Save your money. Let's get John and have
ome fun.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg
nd tour some of those battlefields.
Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which
ne could hire a guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes
ense).
Thanks,
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Message: 6
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:38:42 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <177bd.5a3004e.3c5054b2 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey Andy-
HNX-
ou can easily spend years prowling around battlefields in this area.
here is also something new to go try to find.
here is never enough time for any one place which is fortunate in one
ay. But the other side of the coin is that it gets dark and the park police
ome and chase you off the battlefield..
redericksburg has some wonderful restaurants. I wish I could have lived
own there also but......
ru Love's is right on the river across from the island north oif the
ridge and S of the northern landing poiunt. Has huge picture windows to watch
the Rappahannock current flow by. Way cool. Fireplace too.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 1:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter:
When I have some time finalized, I will let you know to see if you are
ree. As I said earlier, I don't have anything planned at the moment, but
anted to put this on the list of places to visit this summer, should I find
yself having a free weekend.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:55 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ndy-
I don't come into the GDG to solicit business as a tourguide. It is
robably inappropriate.
But since you asked I sent an email out of the room but I didn't get your
ddress right and I got a bounce back.
I am a Civil War battlefield tour guide. I am kind of like a
rostitute.
'll go anywhere anytime. Been taking bus tours to the battlefields for
0 years.
I've been prowling the battlefields around DC for 30+ years.
Fredericksburg- I'd like to go wander around the Slaughter Pen some
ore.
he northern stonewall is over-rated. The southern end of the
attlefield is far more interesting.
There is a really really great restaurant on the river- very romantic.
ind of a fancy place now but it it used to be a cheap sports brass and
ern
ar. Now called Tru Love's. It has a webvsite. The manager James
ight
hrow us a free round.
Just so you know, I love being on a battlefield. I go by myself all the
ime. I'll go anywhere.
If you want a tour guide I will work for chili and beer. Anywhere you
ant to go. You should go on the Booth Escape Route tour with me. Way
ool.
Any time anyone from GDG wants to go out and poke around a battlefield
'll do it for chili and beer. That goes for everyone.
We'll take John Grim. He's fun. Save your money. Let's get John and
ave some fun.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:14:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment
ther than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends
hich are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to
redericksburg and tour some of those battlefields.
Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides
ne could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know
f people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area
n which one could hire a guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show
ou those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on
he edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time
f the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I
ope this makes sense).
Thanks,
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 7
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:42:22 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327430542.46001.YahooMailNeo at web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because
he river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very
wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.?
Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
capital and RR center.
Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter?
In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original? Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>> And
in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
Regards, Tom B.?
-----Original Message-----
From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
Dave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we disagree,? sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
Gtysbg,
& Monocacy.
I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
balanced? combination.
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
The Hammer was Jackson.
The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
Everything else was a subset.
A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter?
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Message: 8
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:48:36 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E119 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jeff:
Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City Island
cross from the city?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
our point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is because
he river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed free.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but
very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.
Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
capital and RR center.
Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the flames
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original? Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>> And
in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
Regards, Tom B.?
-----Original Message-----
From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
Dave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we disagree,? sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
Gtysbg,
& Monocacy.
I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
balanced? combination.
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
The Hammer was Jackson.
The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
Everything else was a subset.
A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter?
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Message: 9
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:59:51 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Wasn't Sickles Right?
essage-ID: <e65cc1ec1ec74.4f1effa7 at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<< In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV flanking
ttack?
Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of the
ctions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was intending to move
large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the case later in the
ay), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to debate (that he
idn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's brigade), but I think
he final conclusion of his (not the move), that a large force of the enemy was
oving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is a valid conclusion. >>
Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at all sure this did
quate to discovering any particular intent to move a large force around his
lank. Now, that of course is what ended up happening, but at the time of the
itzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was an extension of the
onfederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and not necessarily a wider
lanking movement.
here's also the matter of how, had Sickles taken up his assigned sector,
nstead of moving forward, the intended Confederate flanking movement wouldn't
ave ended up off his flank at all.
Jim Cameron
-----------------------------
Message: 10
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:00:59 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <186a3.30368703.3c5059eb at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
This may rile some feathers and make a kerfluffle but I have had a couple
ozen LBG on my tourbuses at GTYSBG and have never really been very
mpressed by them. Sure, the tourists love it.
ut tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie.
ut I sit there and look out the window and want to go Hey! Point that
ut! What about that? Point this out.
had a LBG once who only wanted to talk about about Daniel Sickles
hooting Philip Barton Key on Lafayette Square 75 mi away in DC. Meanwhile the
bus is rolling past Oak Ridge and the Peach Orchid and the guy was talking
bout P.B. Key. As a matter of protocol and courtesy you don't contradict
nother guide on a tour but I had to repeatedly keep telling him discreetly
o stay on topic. Did no good tho. Didn't stop talking about it til the
our was over. The tour co provided the tip for the guy but I didn't want
o give it to him.
love the story.... I tell it a lot as a ghost story on Lafayette
quare. One of my favorite stories. But when LRT is rolling by outside the
us
indow you should talk about that, not Sickles and Key.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:36:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
o. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to
he day after the battle.
he NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a
artnership of sorts ever since.
an you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service,
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but
enerally
ood.
hey do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides
t
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms
f the minituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
Regards,
Jack
9
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
ubject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment
other than this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends
which are in short supply due to some family issues), I would like to
et
to Fredericksburg and tour some of those battlefields.
Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides
ne
could use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know
of people who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area
in which one could hire a guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
Fredericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show
you those "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost
n
the edge of the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the
ime
of the battle and where various points are in relation to each other (I
hope this makes sense).
Thanks,
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 11
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:04:34 -0500 (EST)
rom: idunc at q.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Gettysburg Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
essage-ID:
<1202429509.2256702.1327431874089.JavaMail.root at md02.quartz.synacor.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
<<Neo-Confederate: One who gives the impression of living under an unusually
rotracted Union occupation.
Jim Cameron>>
Frigg'in brilliant!!
Ian Duncanson
------------------------------
Message: 12
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:06:55 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <e4c5c4401ab04.4f1f014f at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<< The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years
go. >>
As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a guide
orce (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
Jim Cameron
-----------------------------
Message: 13
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:24:37 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <96922F6FE46A4E07965699417FDC368A at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If
hey pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns
efore being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
our style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
<< The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not
unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and,
IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was
O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and began giving tours
when he was about fifteen. The current guide service was started a little
more than five years ago. >>
As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a
guide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does
have one affiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
Jim Cameron
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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------------------------------
Message: 14
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:28:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <19a11.4b5259d5.3c506067 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
he Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of the
hes Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
xtremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge
am, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
omeone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
ater on the R at Wrightsville.
cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant number of
nfantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as well
ave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
f I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river but
ot infantry.
n magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers putting
og rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing stories.
he Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. The
udson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in Manhatten I
ouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
f you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
rater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
he Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). The
verflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
rabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to water
evel
ith silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and
osts me sleep at night worrying about it.
admium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
hat's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
ticking to it.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eff:
Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City
sland across from the city?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
our point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
lowed free.
amaste
Jeff Burk
________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of
he river.
Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
capital and RR center.
Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it
o
cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on
he
east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
rom
both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the
NV
generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save
t.
The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
ridges
were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another
ntil
Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
ater
but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily
obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered
ridge
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the
lames
that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> And
in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
(not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
From: CWMHTours at aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Dave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we disagree, sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as
Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam,
Gtysbg,
& Monocacy.
I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
balanced combination.
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
The Hammer was Jackson.
The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
bout
destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
nd
in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
without a
whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces
up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
Everything else was a subset.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
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Message: 15
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:32:13 -0500
rom: Dave Gillespie <gillespd at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<CAK09S9UGQTXyXEdxUgwF6Sm=KpudQw5XNwnX8ZQrZVi3-zOuxg at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
here it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
usquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
n South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
s a fascinating river.
Thanks,
ave Gillespie
arsippany, NJ
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water ?source of the
Ches Bay. ?Goes all the way up into southern NY ?state.
Extremely wide. ?Just north of the state border with MD ?there is a huge
dam, the Conowingo. ?some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile ?Island.
Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are ?apparent in low
water on the R at Wrightsville.
I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any ?significant number of
infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG ?campaign. ?You might as well
wave goodbye as ?they marched off to ?Johnson's Island.
If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of ?the river but
not infantry.
In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of ?loggers putting
log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. ?Pretty ?amazing stories.
The Susq ?R is an earthquake fault. ?Interesting on ?the East Coast. ?The
Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly ?enough. ?If I lived in Manhatten I
wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. ?And certainly in a high rise.
If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C ?Bay is a
crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix ?here!). ?The
overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I ?need my
crabs!). ?And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up ?to water
evel
with silt. ?The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares ?experts, and
costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty ?scary.
That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and ?I am
sticking to it.
A ?Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
amills at jplcreative.com writes:
Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff:
Out of curiosity: ?is the dam in ?which you refer, the one just below City
Island across from the city?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
From: ?gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf ?Of Jeff Burk
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
To: GDG
Subject: ?Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your ?point about the river being shallow is true today. ?However that is
because the river has been dammed upstream. ?during the ?war the ?river
flowed free.
Namaste
Jeff ?Burk
>________________________________
>From: ?"CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: ?gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 ?PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG ?Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in ?summer ?droughts but
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very ?rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more ?than ?an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on ?the east side of
the ?river.
>Harrisburg was no significant ?military goal other than being a ?state
>capital and RR ?center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the ?river ?there.
>
>A ?Loyal Neo-Anti ?Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 ?2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>mdblough1 at comcast.net ?writes:
>
>Esteemed ?GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The ?militia destroyed it in order to keep the ?Confederates using it
to
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. ?Harrisburg ?is on
the
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to ? attack the city
from
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the ?bridge's ?destruction, the
ANV
>generals on the scene saw the ?advantages to saving it and ?tried to save
it.
>The Susquehanna is ?not one of the wildest rivers in the ?world but
bridges
>were ?needed to cross it and with that bridge out there ?wasn't another
until
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could ?be ?rebuilt
later
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of ?precision ?wasn't easily
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville ?bridge was a wood & ?stone covered
bridge
>believed to be the ?longest such bridge in the world at ?the time and the
flames
>that ?destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite ?supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original ?Message -----
>From: "Tom" ?<bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG" ? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 ?PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed ?GDG Member ?Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you ?think about it, the damn ?thing IS still made of big
>granite ?blocks. Now just how are you going to ?knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and ?trouble? ?<<< It was destroyed, by fire
>(not the granite supports ? of course), by Union militia.
>Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 ?9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Subject: Re: GDG- ?Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member ?Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we ?disagree, ?sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed ?with Jackson about ?destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I ?think Lee was just about as ?aggressive as
>Jackson was in ?bringing the war to your opponent. for ?example, Antietam,
>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not ?dispersing ?you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced ?combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee ?could see the Hammer and the ?Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was ?Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful ?James Peter ?Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I ?don't ?recall reference to Lee being concerned
about
>destroying ?the RR bridge ?over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
And
>in fact, if you think ?about it, the damn thing IS still made of ?big
>granite blocks. Now just how ?are you going to knock the darn ?thing over
>without a
>whole lot of ?valuable time and ?trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. ?Raids. ?Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in ? overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was ?to ?de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal ?Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 16
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:36:05 -0800
rom: Matt Diestel <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<CA+i57zYGHKKp=CYK99_HWfHzb0J5RMidX_Kiwkv2_NJ=JtLdyw at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
their forces prior to the battle.
The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
trapped, so what the hey.
The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
Cumberland that was never going to happen.
Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
piecemeal.
Regards,
Jack
As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not
to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time.
Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
same time.
With regards,
Chet
-----------------------------
Message: 17
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:39:37 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <5406AD3E-2A0E-45CD-B3B6-F4C87FD87C49 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders required
im to cover Baltimore as well.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
>
> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
> their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
> piecemeal.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was not
> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same time.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.
With regards,
Chet
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Message: 18
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:07 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Sickles...Wudna, Cudda, Shudda.
essage-ID: <374.3c0e8260.3c506317 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I am 100% convinced that if Sickles had taken the axis II Cps - LRT that
here would have been no crisis on Day 2. His III C. 2 divs should have
een more than sufficient to handle any attack by the Hood or McLaws.
eade was given a free hand by Lincoln. Remove any officers he wanted,
romote any officers he wanted, (Hey! No one's addressing my ?s about Merritt,
arnsworth & Custer. THNX guys.)
f I wuz Meade after the 2nd Day I wudda stood one-legged Sickles against
tree, pulled out my .44 Colt and shot him in the head.
ust my opinion and I get feedback from people that I am too easy and
ompassionate in my views.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:01:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ameron2 at optimum.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
< In a roundabout way, wasn't Sickles right in "discovering" the ANV
lanking attack?
Granted, he didn't run into any of Longstreet's units, but as a result of
he actions against Wilcox's men, he did find out that the ANV was
ntending to move a large force to attack his flank (which was eventually the
ase
ater in the day), but the manner in which he went about it is subject to
ebate (that he didn't discover Longstreet's movement but instead Wilcox's
rigade), but I think the final conclusion of his (not the move), that a
arge force of the enemy was moving south to flank his line / ergo: the AOP is
valid conclusion. >>
Considering where Wilcox's force was encountered, I'm not at all sure this
id equate to discovering any particular intent to move a large force
round his flank. Now, that of course is what ended up happening, but at the
ime of the Pitzer's woods action all it necessarily signified was an
xtension of the Confederate line further down along Seminary Ridge, and not
ecessarily a wider flanking movement.
here's also the matter of how, had Sickles taken up his assigned sector,
nstead of moving forward, the intended Confederate flanking movement
ouldn't have ended up off his flank at all.
Jim Cameron
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Message: 19
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:40:33 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <D7AF5F8BF72544D091B9FC13085B4766 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Can try this site - ALBG Site.
http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs.html
Regards,
om B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: Dave Glorioso
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:35 AM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ny syllabi from those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that
an be purchased or shared?
ave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the
ay after the battle.
The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a
artnership of sorts ever since.
Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service,
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally
ood.
They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of
he minituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
Regards,
Jack
9
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
>
> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg
nd tour some of those battlefields.
>
> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which
ne could hire a guide?
>
> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes
ense).
>
> Thanks,
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Message: 20
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:45:52 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <7ff.596acb79.3c50646f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Don't hook me! Please! Don't hook me!
-{) !!!!!
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:19:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
awrence at rwlcpa.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
nytime a member finds themselves commenting "don't hook me" its best to
top right there and not send the post.
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:52 AM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
om B.-
My Friend-
If you are worried about getting slammed by other members in the GDG
lease feel free to sign MY name at the bottom of your posts. I can
ake the
ain. See if Al responds.
I am starting to get used to it. like a duck in the rain.
What is frequently lost in discussion of Lee, Longstreet and Jackson
s/are the two Napoleonic Maxims of War.
Which are:
1:. Always attack with overwhelming force [A modern example being Donald
umsflod "You go to war with what you got"{DON'T HOOK ME THIS !
ERMAINE!!!!!]} ( Did I spell germaine right?)
2. Always keep your opponent off bakance.
Lee was a master of these 2 emxample beimg iftims. Our esteemned Noble
od Shelby Foote labeled as geniuses both Lincoln and Forrest but you have
o admit that Lee, Jackson and Longstreet belong in the ampheuon
Spell?)of heroes.
NOT AS A MODERN POLITICAL COMMENT! DON'T HOOK ME!!!!!!
It is effficient as a military commander to attack with "overwhelming
orce" for example being that sometimes if you bring a LOT of your dudes the
ther guy runs away, ie. the first Gulf War. (Also, as a bachelor,} the
irst datecan get scared and his dudes orun away. [As a bachelor on a
irst date when attacking with overwhelming force does't work very well. I
on't know why
RE: Viet Nam. {DON'T HOOK ME!!!!! THIS is GERMAINE! } in the
xample
Military-not political- don't HOOK me!] In the peak of the quantitiy
f troops.the
axim of overwhelming force did not work in that the US got as high as
50,000 troops) (Correct me if that figger is wrong.) The maxim fails
s..... but we have few other examples
A modern example is the Humvees in Iraq [DON'T HOOK ME!!!!! DO YOU SEE
LL THE EXCLAMATION MARKS? THAT MEANS DOIN'T HOOK ME- NOR YOU'L;L NEVER
ET A BOWL OF CHILI IN IN DC IF YOU
That military idiot said go to war with what you got qand we got
fghanisant and Iraq,
We should mot have gone in there until we were prepared.
The analogy being Pap Thomas at Nashville. he didn'tattack until all his
ogistics was readv
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/23/2012 11:12:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
isclaimer : I respect Lee, and a big fan of Longstreet - but - I
onestly feel Lee's finest hours was the Jackson episodes, thus deferring to
ost
f Dave's post. IMHO - Lee was an accomplished strategist - Jackson was
he tactician, deferring to your post of the Lee-Jackson combo. Sometimes I
onder (at the risk of getting slammed in this group), whether Lee headed
orth, besides the tried and true reasons, to stave off the chance of
osing some of his command to the West (Vicksburg especially). Commanders
on't like to lose troops to another command, maybe an ego thing ;-D. Not
aying Lee's best interests for the Confederacy were not in his heart, but
he acceleration of his movements after meeting with Davis was (to me) a
it suspect. If my musings are wrong, so be it, as I'm sure this esteemed
roup will put me in the right direction - just a thought, though! (Have to
o back to lurker mode - starting to put my fat in the fire !!)
Regards,
om B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: Tom
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> And
n fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
ranite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
ithout a
hole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
egards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
ent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ave,
Respectfully Sir,
I think we disagree, sir.
Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
nfrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as
ackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam,
tysbg, & Monocacy.
I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being
balanced combination.
By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
The Hammer was Jackson.
The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
bout destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
nd
n fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
ranite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
ithout a whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces
p north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
verything else was a subset.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
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Message: 21
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:50:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <15921.3869595a.3c50658f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
our style.
here is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam. The
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is
iven to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the
andidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance.
OTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you
an give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified,
ut you are not "interviewed" by guides.
oth the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor
ets a quality tour.
eter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a
orsepie.
he tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,
nd one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat
he customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is
"stupid"
ndy Ward
------------------------------
Message: 22
ate: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:11:21 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Dave- a Second Response
essage-ID: <845lsq5f5qplylil6swld7q2.1327374681880 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Unfortunately, this dream scenario ignores the fact that the war in the west was
nexorably moving east.
umbers, assets and geography were going to play a heavy staccato on the south ,
s the confederate will slowly drained.
egards,
acj
CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
In more thought, at the risk of annoying everyone.
By 2nd Man Lee had the perfect instrument of war.
Just absolutely perfect.
Longstreet, the master of solid assault and massive defense.
Jackson, the master of fast Napoleonic warfare.
Had that miraculous triumvirate survived Chancallorseville, it may not
have been the battle of Gettysburg or anything else that we would recognize in
>battle to this day.
Easily if Jackson had lived there just might never be any battle of
Gettysburg at all. It would still be a quiet little boring farm town like
Adamstown or Littlestown.
Inconsequential.
Jackson is the "X" factor of the war the East. Had he survived Chncvl
anything could have happened- including Northern defeat on the battlefield.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/23/2012 8:24:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
glory at zbzoom.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Just finished "how the south could have won the civil war", by Bevin
Alexander-Armchair General 3-2012
It ends:
Saddled with leaders like Davis and Lee, who could not perceive reality,
the South's defeat was inevitable.
The crux of the article is Jackson understood that the means of war now
favored the defense as witnessed during the 7 days battles when only 1 of
Lee's 5 frontal attacks succeeded.
Rifled muskets and canister would bleed out the southern army at this rate.
Instead, Jackson encouraged offensive movement leading to a defensive
stance on ground of his choice.
He also favored aggressive northern invasion with additional plans to
destroy factories, railroads and mines.
Both Davis and Lee rejected his strategy. Davis was in favor of a more
passive policy hoping the north would tire or Britain/France would intervene.
Lee favored frontal attacks.
At second manassas, Jackson's proposals led to an opportunity to destroy
Pope's army. It may have worked if Lee would have attacked Popes left
earlier, failing to prevent retreat.
At Antietam, Jackson disagreed with Lee's goal of going to destroy the
bridge over the Susquehanna.
Instead he wanted to draw Mac to attack him north of Washington with added
goal of destroying factories etc
When battle took place at Antietam, Lee chose to fight despite little room
for maneuver. Jackson's ideals would have favored withdrawing to a more
favorable defensive position.
At Fredericksburg, Jackson proposed going south to North Anna River where
the cavalry would better be able to prevent the union army's retreat and
resupply.
At Chancellorsville, Lee put Jackson's strategy in place. An end around to
cut off Hookers retreat over the Rappahannock at US Ford was foiled by
Jackson's wound.
Lee invaded North again but continued his fixation on frontal attacks
during three costly days at Gettysburg.
The above are interesting points although over simplified and without
primary sources.
Thoughts?
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
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Message: 23
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:50:52 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <8hsfemq5hbt2rq1exwxltcl5.1327431052241 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed
ree.
?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very
>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.?
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter?
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge
>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the
lames
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
>Regards, Tom B.?
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we disagree,? sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced? combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter?
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 24
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:58:34 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <ht7yrnan589pli7naujedsdm.1327424314263 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
They still present the classes.
ou just can it get them from the HACC anymore.
he course list us on their site.
'll look for the address.
egards,
ack
tw for clarification, I wasn't studying to be a battlefield guide. The HACC
dvertised them poorly in their mail outs and I signed up.
Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Any syllabi from those LBFG prep courses or any similar sources of info that
an be purchased or shared?
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:36 AM, "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the
ay after the battle.
> The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a
artnership of sorts ever since.
> Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service,
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
>
> The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally
ood.
> They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
>
> In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
>
> But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of
he minituae of the field.
>
> Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> 9
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
> Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
>>
>> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg
nd tour some of those battlefields.
>>
>> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which
ne could hire a guide?
>>
>> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes
ense).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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>
>
>
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Message: 25
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:01:33 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <133c.25722d32.3c50681d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jack!
o...no...no...!
ure, Lee wanted to spare VA. He wanted to spare VA, W VA, N.C., and the
est of the South.
ou appear to forget.... VA was the Battleline. The front. And it was
etting chewed up and decimated by the armies sitting there. Like Verdun.
Don't hook me!]
ut, IMHO, you read Lee wrong if you forget the two Maxims of battle. By
nserting the ANV into the north HE controlled the battle. HE had the
niative and could force the N. to react instead of waiting in VA for the AoP
o take the iniative for the attack.
here is a lot to be argued for retaining only the defensive. He could
ave sat S of the Rap R waiting for another UNION attack. But there were
ime constraints.
e had to help wear out the will to fight on the north. If he sat S of
he Rap R the N could only build up and reinforce their armies.
e had to keep the N off balance and away from decimating the S farmland.
e couldn't attack DC because it was a fortress. It had, until July 1964,
n army of 30k in it. He could only go N of the Napoleonic capital and
care the dickens out of the North.
ack!.... No ..... No ....No! You are all wrong sir.
ut I love you, man.....
-{)
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:50:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
rom: <atmackeyjr at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:10 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
As to why he moved north in the Pennsylvania Campaign, I don't think
e'll ever know with 100% certainty.
He wanted to spare Virginia.
>Avoiding losing troops to the west may very well have been part of his
thinking.
Didn't he tell Davis that, at least in so mnay words?
>He himself said that he wanted to subsist his army in enemy territory,
ive
Virginia farmers an opportunity to bring in a good crop without armies in
the way, and disrupt the Federals' plans for their own defensive.
This is correct. He wanted to spare Virginia.
>Of these stated objectives, he did disrupt any plans Hooker may have had
for an offensive....
>He wanted to spare virginia. And why would the aoP go south when Lee came
north and bared whis throat to the AoP...He wanted to spare Virginia.
>If he had the unstated objective of avoiding sending troops to the west,
e
did that as well,
He wanted to spare Virginia.
>but I think we can postulate that if that was one of his objectives it
as
because he felt that a victory in the north would siphon off troops from
Vicksburg. We'll never know about that part, but the nice thing about
>counterfactuals is that either way we argue, as long as we extrapolate
from known historical facts, we're all 100% correct. : )
This is the type of postulate we get down to when we just cannot come up
ith any military justification for the campaign.
> I believe we can say with near certainty that Lee always planned to win
victories in battles, so whatever he hoped to accomplish in the
Pennsylvania campaign depended, at least in part, on defeating the
Federals.
Or he just wanted to spare Virginia.
Regards,
Jack
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Message: 26
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:10:01 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <18a9.f0b82c3.3c506a19 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
THNX Andy-
ou make good points.
an you imagine how I felt on that one bus tour when we were riding past
ickett's Charge and the LGBG was talking about Sickles shooting Key.
have a long list of real nightmares that occurred on tours and that one
eeps floating near the top after 20 years.
ot many people would appreciate it- even other tour guides.
ut you people should.
he rule is you talk about what people see out the window. You tell them
efore they see it what they are gonna see, you tell them what they are
eeing when they see it, and you tell what they saw after they saw it.
real simple rule.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:51:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Ward61890 at aol.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
our style.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam.
he
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is
iven to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the
andidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second
hance.
OTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to
f you
an give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over
implified,
ut you are not "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor
ets a quality tour.
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a
orsepie.
The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,
nd one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't
reat
he customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer
s
stupid"
Andy Ward
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 27
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:12:24 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <1a4e.11720df0.3c506aa8 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Yes- they are visible, you can see them from the 57mm's.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:56:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ren't the piers still visible?
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: <128thpa at comcast.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:25 AM
ubject: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
There is a small but very interesting museum in Wrightsville that has
photos of the many bridges that cross the Susquehanna around there.
IRC,
the bridge that burnt down was not the first bridge in that spot. There
s
a diorama of the burning of the bridge:
http://www.historicwrightsvillepa.org/historic_wrightsville_museum
Paula
<<The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered bridge
believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the
flames that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports. >>
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Message: 28
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:29:34 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <A6669B8758384E7B9A89848D957D3A24 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to
he visitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the
olks (30 or more,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for
he sake of the many, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG
ours, where the guide is experienced enough to determine their degree of
nowledge of the field (thus possibly ramping up the tour with more info).
e make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a
our with an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we
sually request, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've
orked with, family, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can
ount on them to ask - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1)
isitor's Center 2) a tour with an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D.
Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive
esponses every time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of
orts - I do believe Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam
uides are on my list for my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a
uck, are dedicated to their craft and true professionals. Just look at the
ettysburg Daily site - it's free, has great tours and info., and can be
one in the comfort of your home. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more
-D
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
our style.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut
here the so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam.
he
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is
iven to an existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the
andidate is asked to make any necessary adjustments and gets a second
hance.
OTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if
ou
an give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified,
ut you are not "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor
ets a quality tour.
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a
orsepie.
The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus,
nd one thing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat
he customer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is
stupid"
Andy Ward
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
-to unsubscribe
ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
-----------------------------
Message: 29
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:32:46 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- My Tummy!
essage-ID: <282e.132614db.3c506f6e at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi!
just mentioned it in passing. I have a big interest in geography and
here every thing is. I am under the impression that in the deep cancerous
ilt behind the Conowingo that there is residual low level radiation
ontaminants from the 70s.
reat!
HNX alot! How am I going to be able to sleep tonite when I am now
orrying about the Conowingo Dam again? I've already got stomach trouble and now
you ask about the Conowingo!
ammit! Ouch! My tummy!
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:57:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
oors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
lowed free.
Namaste
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
ery
>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of
he river.
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>
>A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it
o
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on
he
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
rom
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the
NV
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save
t.
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
ridges
>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another
ntil
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
ater
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered
ridge
>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the
lames
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>(not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we disagree, sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive
s
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
ntietam,
>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
bout
>destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
nd
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysbur
_arthes.com
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Message: 30
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:33:15 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3559F594-D08F-4BC9-BDF7-1DA2C62548CA at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To do
hat, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long they
ould stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he had
efore the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
is a fascinating river.
Thanks,
Dave Gillespie
Parsippany, NJ
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>
> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of the
> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>
> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge
> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>
> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>
> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant number of
> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as well
> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>
> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river but
> not infantry.
>
> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers putting
> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing stories.
>
> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast. The
> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in Manhatten I
> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>
> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>
> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!). The
> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to water
evel
> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and
> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>
> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>
> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
> sticking to it.
>
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff:
>
> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City
> Island across from the city?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that is
> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
> flowed free.
>
>
> Namaste
>
> Jeff Burk
>
>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>
>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of
> the river.
>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>> capital and RR center.
>>
>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using it
> to
>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is on
> the
>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
> from
>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction, the
> ANV
>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to save
> it.
>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
> bridges
>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another
> until
>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
> later
>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't easily
>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered
> bridge
>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and the
> flames
>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Margaret
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> And
>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
>> without a
>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>> Regards, Tom B.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Dave,
>>
>> Respectfully Sir,
>>
>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>
>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as aggressive as
>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example, Antietam,
>
>> Gtysbg,
>> & Monocacy.
>>
>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>> balanced combination.
>>
>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>
>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>
>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>>
>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
> about
>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his.
> And
>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing over
>> without a
>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>
>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>
>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>> Everything else was a subset.
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
> m
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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> m
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>>
>>
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-----------------------------
Message: 31
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:37:49 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E24B at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As an aside: if there are any battlefield guides on the list, I wanted to point
ut that some of the information on the site is old and outdated. For instance:
ttp://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/rates.html . This page has the prices
ncorrect, as they have gone up to ( http://www.nps.gov/gett/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm
and I also noticed when talking about the tests ( http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/faqs-writexam.html
, they had the next upcoming test as December 2010.
Just in case anyone has the contacts to mention the site has outdated
nformation.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info).
e make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with,
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D.
Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site -
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:50 PM
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:25:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
I understand the system at Gettysburg
onsists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
nterviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like your
tyle.
There is in fact a very comprehensive written test. If you make the cut there
he so called "interview" mentioned above is actually an oral exam.
he
erspective guide puts together his or her own 2 hour car tour which is given to
n existing guide AND an NPS Ranger. After the first tour the candidate is asked
o make any necessary adjustments and gets a second chance.
OTH the ranger and the guide grade the candidate. It all comes down to if you
an give a factual, good tour of the battlefield. That is over simplified, but
ou are not "interviewed" by guides.
Both the park and the guide force are just trying to make sure the visitor gets
quality tour.
Peter previously stated that:
Sure, the tourists love it. But tourists don't know a cowpie from a horsepie.
The tour is for the visitors or tourists not a tour director on the bus, and one
hing that can cause a candidate to fail would be if you don't treat the
ustomer with respect or have the attitude that your paying customer is "stupid"
Andy Ward
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Message: 32
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:26 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E26D at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line.
lease don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I
as one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass
t over. If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores,
t becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space. Added to this,
t would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day
ccordingly.
I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people
I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots
re filled on a certain day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two
o help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away
usiness.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info).
e make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with,
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D.
Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site -
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.
-----------------------------
Message: 33
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:47:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <32e3.72bf9a9d.3c5072f9 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sir,
espectfully,
think you misread both the 2 maxims of battle AND Lee at CHNCVL
verwhelming force- one way you apply that is to segment off a part of
he enemy's forces ands then hit them with overwhe4lming force. Military
fficers from all over the world come here to research Jackson's Valley
ampaign.
epeatedly, Jackson used surprise to keeps the Yanks off balance and nip
ff small segments like the MD brigade in Front Royal. He both kept them
ff balance and struck with overwhelming force, which is the cheapest way to
in a battle.
t Chncvl Lee followed BOTH rules after the Crackerbox conference. Yes,
e divided his forces for Jackson's assault. BUT he nipped off a wing of
he AoP - the XIth Cps. Hit them with the WHOLE II Cps. 25K men odd (Is
hat the reasonable figure?). He caught them by surprise-keeping them off
alance. And when he attacked it was some 25k against, I think, less than
0k in the XI Cps.
o... At Chncvl he was entirely following the 2 maxims of battle.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 12:21:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
oadx1 at netscape.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
It would appear, then, that Lee was quite willing to ignore the Napoleonic
axims. At Chancellorsville, for example, he divided his army. Jackson's
lanking maneuver was not overwhelming force; it was successful surprise
hat succeeded because Lee anticipated Hooker's reaction. Second Manassas
as a successful ambush of an army that didn't know where Longstreet was.
ickett's Charge was hardly overwhelming force.
In short, Lee made do with the human resources he had, which were never
verwhelming in numbers. He relied on speed and surprise, and on the morale
f his forces. He also relied on his knowledge of the AoP commanders. A
ot of psychology was involved, but rarely, if ever, overwhelming force.
-----Original Message-----
rom: CWMHTours <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: gettysburg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:08 am
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
im.
Sir,
When you consider Lee as a general it is helpful, if not required, to
emember the 2 Napoleonic Maxims of Warfare, which are:
1. Always strike with overwhelming force.....
If you remember those 2 maxims you can start to get a handle on R.E.
ee.
He was a master of those.
ie. Witness Chancellorville or 2 nd Man. The man was briilliant. If you
ere in his shoes it would be hard to deviate from his actions, unless
ou
re a dumb guy, which fortunately we are not.
Pemberton and J Johnston had some 50k men between them. With a 1000 miles
etween them and Lee he did the right thing.
The fortress of Washington was his focus. He needed as mny people as
ossible. Because it was a fortress he knew that he could never
uccessfully
ttack it. He had to get the Northern forces away from DC in order to
ring overwhelming force on the AoP.
If you go into Penn you keep the Yanks off balance. And if you can, you
ttack with overwhelming force.
It's actually very simple to understand Lee in that light.
Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but
like how it sounds.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
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Message: 34
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:48:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
rom: recker at earthlink.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<7758272.1327438134655.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
t Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written test
nd then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS, one from
he guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a mentor who helps
ou through a few other requirements. This part of it is somewhat different than
ettysburg. The guide service is part of Western Maryland Interpretive
ssociation, the park's non-profit. They have an arrangement with the NPS,
hough because Antietam is not a National Military park like Gettysburg, their
rrangement is probably slightly different. There is no internship, but you must
ign up to be a volunteer to become a guide.
Stephen Recker
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If
they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns
before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg
consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
your style.
------------------------------
Message: 35
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:59:27 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <A47B8E5259D1469088BAAA02EE69EC87 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I've usually been fortunate in that I get a return call within a day or so -
nd either I request a certain guide who I'm familiar with - or ask for one
ho's specialty is specific to a certain interest. But that's me. In regards to
our post, I totally agree, but I'm not sure they have the resources for that -
.e. a specific scheduler type of person (I really don't know). Maybe Andy Ward
ould answer that one?
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Andy Mills
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:42 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ne thing I do not like though is the inability to reserve a time on-line.
lease don't take this the wrong way, but for many of the younger folks (wish I
as one of them), if there isn't a way to do this online, they will simply pass
t over. If the place doesn't have an "app" from one of the various app stores,
t becomes a burden to actually use a phone to reserve a space. Added to this,
t would be nice to see on-line the time slots available so you can plan the day
ccordingly.
I would think this would be a good management tool as you could schedule people
I don't really know how it is done) based on the need as if all the time slots
re filled on a certain day, perhaps you could arrange for an extra guide or two
o help offset those that come on a whim for a guide, instead of turning away
usiness.
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:30 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
What amazes me is how the LBG's can either tone down the information to the
isitor or ramp it up. I imagine on a bus tour, the majority of the folks (30 or
ore,say), may not have an inkling about the field (thus for the sake of the
any, tone down). Then you have the individual/family LBG tours, where the guide
s experienced enough to determine their degree of knowledge of the field (thus
ossibly ramping up the tour with more info).
e make at least 2 trips a year to GNMP, and at least 1 of them includes a tour
ith an LBG, and I have never regretted doing it - then again we usually
equest, each time, a certain aspect of the battle etc. Folks I've worked with,
amily, and friends know our interest in Gettysburg, and I can count on them to
sk - what are the musts on a visit - and IMHO - 1) Visitor's Center 2) a tour
ith an LBG 3) and then walk the field with J.D.
Steve's guidebook in hand. And I do mean walk!! I've gotten positive responses
very time - and many converts to our passion. As an aside of sorts - I do
elieve Vicksburg has an LBG staff also. And the Antietam Guides are on my list
or my next trip there. These LBG's, besides making a buck, are dedicated to
heir craft and true professionals. Just look at the Gettysburg Daily site -
t's free, has great tours and info., and can be done in the comfort of your
ome. Just my two cents - and a few bucks more ;-D
Regards,
om B.
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Message: 36
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:01:20 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3bd6.ab32c88.3c50761f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
George....
love you Man....
ut I DO doubt it......
hink of the consequences for Lee.
efore capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
akes that army on the wrong side of the river.
ook at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
hey lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
alling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
ccupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
n and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
ee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
nd, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
rong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
olitely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To
e
t makes no sense.
o I do doubt it.,
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
o that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
hey would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he
ad before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
is a fascinating river.
Thanks,
Dave Gillespie
Parsippany, NJ
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>
> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
he
> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>
> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge
> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>
> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>
> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
umber of
> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
ell
> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>
> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
ut
> not infantry.
>
> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
utting
> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
tories.
>
> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
he
> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
anhatten I
> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>
> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>
> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
he
> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
ater level
> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and
> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>
> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>
> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jeff:
>
> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
ity
> Island across from the city?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
s
> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
> flowed free.
>
>
> Namaste
>
> Jeff Burk
>
>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>
>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
f
> the river.
>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>> capital and RR center.
>>
>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
t
> to
>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
n
> the
>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
> from
>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
he
> ANV
>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
ave
> it.
>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
> bridges
>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another
> until
>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
> later
>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
asily
>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered
> bridge
>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
he
> flames
>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Margaret
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> And
>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
ver
>> without a
>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
ire
>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>> Regards, Tom B.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Dave,
>>
>> Respectfully Sir,
>>
>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>
>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
ggressive as
>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
ntietam,
>
>> Gtysbg,
>> & Monocacy.
>>
>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
eing a
>> balanced combination.
>>
>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>
>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>
>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
arhorse.
>>
>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
> about
>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
is.
> And
>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
ver
>> without a
>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>
>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
orces
>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>
>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>> Everything else was a subset.
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> -to unsubscribe
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------------------------------
Message: 37
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:09:22 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <F4B4341981564564A4CC17A62BF3CB2A at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual
ettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and
olks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And
ill be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human
atabase (Antietam LBG).
Regards,
om B. (red in the face)
----Original Message-----
rom: recker at earthlink.net
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:48 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
At Antietam it is just like Gettysburg in that you have to pass a written
est and then give a sample tour to a team of proctors, one from the NPS,
ne from the guides. Between the test and the tour you are set up with a
entor who helps you through a few other requirements. This part of it is
omewhat different than Gettysburg. The guide service is part of Western
aryland Interpretive Association, the park's non-profit. They have an
rrangement with the NPS, though because Antietam is not a National Military
ark like Gettysburg, their arrangement is probably slightly different.
here is no internship, but you must sign up to be a volunteer to become a
uide.
Stephen Recker
----Original Message-----
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 2:24 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If
they pass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns
before being fully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg
consists of a written test and, even if you pass the test, you have to be
interviewed by the guides, who can turn you down if they just d not like
your style.
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Message: 38
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:13:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
rom: recker at earthlink.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<18821141.1327439617943.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Tom,
No worries. Thanks for the kind words, and the plug! Glad to hear it is of use.
Ah yes, the human database. Love it!
Stephen Recker
----Original Message-----
From: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
Sent: Jan 24, 2012 4:09 PM
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
And a heartfelt apology Stephen - I missed including your "Virtual
Gettysburg" to my "must" list as posted. I've used it numerous times - and
folks have used it as a prerequisite before even starting their trip. And
will be using "Virtual Antietam" in the future - besides using a human
database (Antietam LBG).
Regards,
Tom B. (red in the face)
------------------------------
Message: 39
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:21:43 -0800
rom: Matt Diestel <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<CA+i57zY6xbUoJ+9szNxHneVyV9+e4t8vw7F_L6Lz+nP-MMffGQ at mail.gmail.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes:
In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders
required him to cover Baltimore as well.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums.
Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed
capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to cover
Boston as well.
With regards,
Chet
-----------------------------
Message: 40
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:09:49 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <C902CE62-5BE6-4D1C-B424-0E62D2588D41 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond
ith his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told
im that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad
ridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3).
ee also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of
he Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg
n three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R.,
7, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich
ohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the
usquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between
arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose
his objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to
he Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around
arlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but
ill go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg
obody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances.
e changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony
icastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait
or Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a
ecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets
epetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is
oubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the
usquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
I love you Man....
But I DO doubt it......
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To
e
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
> is a fascinating river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany, NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
the
>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>
>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a huge
>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
number of
>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
well
>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
stories.
>>
>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
The
>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
water level
>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts, and
>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>>
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
of
>> the river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>> capital and RR center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
it
>> to
>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>> bridges
>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't another
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
the
>> flames
>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
fire
>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
being a
>>> balanced combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>
>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 41
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:14:57 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443297.76363.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it
as built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in
913.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff:
Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below City
sland across from the city??
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed
ree.
?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge
>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the
lames
>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
>Regards, Tom B.?
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we disagree,? sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced? combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter?
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>? -to unsubscribe
>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives?
>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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>
>
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 42
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:18:46 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443526.39587.YahooMailNeo at web114607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
?Jackson used surprise to keeps the? Yanks off balance
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,
? You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so secretive
e did not inform his staff as to his plans.
espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina
ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate
tates Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for
our long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of
enial.?
-----------------------------
Message: 43
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:23:23 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<1327443803.4814.YahooMailNeo at web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer is
hat on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the York
aven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
Regards,
Jack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed
ree.
>
>
>?Namaste
>?
>Jeff Burk
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very
>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>
>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.?
>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
>>capital and RR center.
>>
>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>>
>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>Peter?
>>
>>
>>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>
>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered bridge
>>>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the
lames
>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>
>>Margaret
>>
>>----- Original? Message -----
>>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>>> And
>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
>>without a
>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
>>Regards, Tom B.?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>Dave,
>>
>>Respectfully Sir,
>>
>>I think we disagree,? sir.
>>
>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
>>Gtysbg,
>>& Monocacy.
>>
>>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>>balanced? combination.
>>
>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
>>
>>The Hammer was Jackson.
>>
>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>>
>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
>>without a
>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
>>
>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
>>
>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
>>Everything else was a subset.
>>
>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>Peter?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>? -to unsubscribe
>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives?
>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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>>
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to unsubscribe
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>>
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------------------------------
Message: 44
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 14:25:03 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327443903.54227.YahooMailNeo at web114620.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
From:?"CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o:?gettysburg at arthes.com?
ent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM
ubject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eorge....
hink of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact? artmy.? He?
akes that army on the wrong side of the? river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the? CW.? Before Ant.?
hey lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to? mention Jackson?
alling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian? church.
ccupying a city for ANY army is fraught with? danger.? You don't just go?
n and parade around.? You risk losing? control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a? city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being? on tne?
rong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the? Cumberlaand???
olitely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going? into Harrisburg.? To
e?
t makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter??
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eter,
? I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on
apturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the
usquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I think
e planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw
anic throughout the North.?
espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina
ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America,
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 45
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:26:17 -0500
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <FEFBEAE4920643CBA8DA8EC90D4447FA at BIFF>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hen we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
I love you Man....
But I DO doubt it......
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg.
o me
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
ime he
had before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
> is a fascinating river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany, NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
the
>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>
>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
uge
>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
number of
>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
well
>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
stories.
>>
>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
water level
>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
nd
>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>>
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
of
>> the river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>> capital and RR center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
> it
>> to
>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>> bridges
>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
nother
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
overed
>> bridge
>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>> flames
>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
fire
>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
estroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
being a
>>> balanced combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>
>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>
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>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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hecked by AVG - www.avg.com
ersion: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4763 - Release Date: 01/24/12
-----------------------------
Message: 46
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:40:19 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <66EA56B8-F7B0-40AD-A729-CC0FFB94CCFE at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a
uge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the
usquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take
hat at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east
f the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living
ff the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and
estroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the
oP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
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>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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Message: 47
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:58:53 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D38E76AA609745D9BFB1CD063BF25BED at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005 - the
rticle is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left under
DF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and it is
ritten by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/index.htm
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is a
uge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to cross the
usquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think we should take
hat at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one east
f the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was living
ff the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of Pennsylvania and
estroying the east-west railroad to check the political boxes and to make the
oP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>>
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Message: 48
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:05 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <b576.6a32b57a.3c50a1e5 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Well, George-
s usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little battleship out
f the water (Oh the humanity!).
CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's
ompletely plausible.
ut I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending
orrespondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture Harrisburg".
can't see him being fixated on it.
ome people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance to
ake a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition level
ssociated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to have a
attle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces. Then your enemy
ounter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more pieces.
nd if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the whole
hing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in the
ssault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of overwhelming
orce
nd neither side had it so they chewed each other up.
o you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some
ther miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all four
ears. It is so instructive.
don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the Old
ambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have an
dvantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming force
nd balance.
y threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage. He
ould knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great Poker
layer Lee's best asset was his focus on manueverablity.
hat happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card.
icture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in the
aloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of Camp
urtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP occupations of
rederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into the
roblem a bit.
nd let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been done
n June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other forces
re brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could have
een sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in Balt.
hrow those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and ammo
ould be running low.
nd for what? Harrisburg?
t was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base. Military
alue. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town, was
uilt by then. Camp Curtain- a military target.
ut risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting
ichmond?
ee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army
cross that massive river he's screwed.
can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town...
e wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch,
tanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and destroy it
The enemy is there and we shall attack".
think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent in
nough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a
ansom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town and
ventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross
he Susq R and get back to the Cumberland.
'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the risk
f Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a Northern
ity with no communications to the South.
an you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of
is army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city with mud
treets full of yokels?
ike playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement.
OOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell (
orry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil War.
E: the destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read Walker's
fforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam. I've
een on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge a
umber of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a look.
OOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes.
eorge- do you like my new sign-off?
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
ichmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says
ee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania
ailroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington.
B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on
perating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
16.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg.
ich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
hose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had
dvanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must
e around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
ut will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
ettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses.
ony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield
uide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB,
n a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
f the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
egards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
I love you Man....
But I DO doubt it......
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
e
takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
ackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
o
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
arrisburg. To me
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
o
do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
ime he
had before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
> is a fascinating river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany, NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
the
>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>
>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
uge
>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
ow
>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
number of
>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
well
>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
iver
but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
stories.
>>
>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
ere!).
The
>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
o
water level
>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
nd
>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>>
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
hat
is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
iver
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
ut
>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
ide
of
>> the river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
tate
>>> capital and RR center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
sing
it
>> to
>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
ity
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>> bridges
>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
nother
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
ebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
overed
>> bridge
>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
nd
the
>> flames
>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
fire
>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
estroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
being a
>>> balanced combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>
>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
oncerned
>> about
>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
hing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
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>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> m -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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------------------------------
Message: 49
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:08:00 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <000696B1B0E84B3C8714CADF48469D1E at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8;
reply-type=original
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
egards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
-----------------------------
Message: 50
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:45 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <b906.1cb51524.3c50a339 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there
s a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
e should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big
ne east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and
as living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
ennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box
s and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross
hat river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a
act!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
ushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
ut
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
rederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
ill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
hey
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
annot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
f
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before
nt.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
ackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
o
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
arrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
o
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source
f
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
ow
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might
s
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
iver
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
oast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
ise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
ere!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
o
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just
elow
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
hat
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
iver
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
ide
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
tate
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
sing
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg
s
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried
o
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
ebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
nd
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
hing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
oncerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
hing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
orth.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>> m -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Message: 51
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:13:34 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <C874ED9F0C9D4D5C862B6BD0A62B4B2D at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8;
reply-type=response
Would have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness -
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I
eant to include you ;-D
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives
-----------------------------
Message: 52
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:16:43 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <baa5.7edb6543.3c50a3eb at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Can you please forward an addendum to that for our files? Thank you.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 2:41:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
n an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders
equired him to cover Baltimore as well.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Matt Diestel wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
>
> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
> their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
> piecemeal.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was
ot
> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same
ime.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary
issions
> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.
With regards,
Chet
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Message: 53
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:19:42 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <565D0F01-BC13-476E-83BC-61551E368591 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link
but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 -
Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'GDG'
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
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-----------------------------
Message: 54
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:20:21 +0000 (UTC)
rom: "Margaret D. Blough" <mdblough1 at comcast.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1786146023.433145.1327450821054.JavaMail.root at sz0190a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to
ove when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and
lready north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about
arrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of
ime, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the
eaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the
ail hub in Harrisburg.
egards,
argaret
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
egards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
nsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 55
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:19 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <be87.29d0dcca.3c50a5b3 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ould have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness -
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I
eant to include you ;-D
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
-to unsubscribe
ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
-----------------------------
Message: 56
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:24:30 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D6E4BB3C7ADE4F659B7B4DD09F296CE3 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252;
reply-type=original
Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on
t - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are
riceless - stumbled upon this while searching for something else - I
ctually have the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is
heaper ;-D , and better.
egards,
om B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On
Pg. 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'GDG'
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
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------------------------------
Message: 57
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:25:47 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <39563785-FB3D-4D2E-A2F9-CF0D6F95B084 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Peter,
You start off OK, but before you know you're back in that hole again, digging,
igging, and digging. Put down the shovel and accept that Lee hoped to have at
east two of his corps east of the Susquehanna. He said so! We don't know for
ow long or what would come next, but's a fact.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Well, George-
As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little battleship out
of the water (Oh the humanity!).
I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's
completely plausible.
But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending
correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture
arrisburg".
I can't see him being fixated on it.
Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance to
take a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition level
associated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to have a
battle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces. Then your enemy
counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more pieces.
And if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the whole
thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in the
assault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of overwhelming
orce
and neither side had it so they chewed each other up.
Do you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some
other miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all four
years. It is so instructive.
I don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the Old
Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have an
advantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming force
and balance.
By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage. He
could knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great Poker
Player Lee's best asset was his focus on manueverablity.
What happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card.
Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in the
saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of Camp
Curtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP occupations of
Frederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into the
problem a bit.
And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been done
in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other forces
are brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could have
been sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in Balt.
Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and ammo
would be running low.
And for what? Harrisburg?
It was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base. Military
value. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town, was
built by then. Camp Curtain- a military target.
But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting
Richmond?
Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army
across that massive river he's screwed.
I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town...
He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch,
Stanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and destroy it
> "The enemy is there and we shall attack".
I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent in
enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a
ransom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in town
nd
eventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to cross
the Susq R and get back to the Cumberland.
I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the risk
of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a Northern
city with no communications to the South.
Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of
his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city with mud
streets full of yokels?
Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement.
FOOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell (
Sorry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil War.
RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read Walker's
efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam. I've
been on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge a
number of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a look.
FOOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes.
George- do you like my new sign-off?
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says
> Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania
railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington.
(B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on
operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg.
Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had
advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must
be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses.
Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield
Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB,
in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
Harrisburg. To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>> -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
>>>
>
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>>>
>>>
>
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>>
>>
>
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to unsubscribe
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>
>
>
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-----------------------------
Message: 58
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:28 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <c061.b4987fe.3c50a66f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey Tom-
on't worry about it.
y cat types with one paw.
e's a good little cat. I just wish he would display some kind of respect
or me. I have never seen it yet tho. Before I feed him he shows a lot
f love then after I feed him it is back to disrespect.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
unco973 at optonline.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ould have typed it out - but for the sake of clarity and timeliness -
ink is better. (Plus I type with 2 fingers;-D) And forgive me Peter - I
eant to include you ;-D
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Archives
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ttp://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
-----------------------------
Message: 59
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:27:41 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2531AB69-8016-40C0-8231-F333F43FB036 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place
or it.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there
is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
we should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big
one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and
was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box
es and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross
that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a
fact!
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
Frederick,
> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>
> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p.. 316.
>
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
Hill, p.
> 204
>
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
137.
>
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>
> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
cannot do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> George....
>>
>> I love you Man....
>>
>> But I DO doubt it......
>>
>> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>>
>> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
He
>
>> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>>
>> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before
Ant.
>> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
>> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
go
>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>>
>> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>>
>> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
>> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
Harrisburg.
> To me
>> it makes no sense.
>>
>> So I do doubt it.,
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Peter,
>>
>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
long
>
>> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
> time he
>> had before the AoP would have been close.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> George
>> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>>> is a fascinating river.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dave Gillespie
>>> Parsippany, NJ
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>>
>>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source
of
>> the
>>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>>
>>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
> huge
>>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>>
>>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
low
>>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
>> number of
>>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might
as
>> well
>>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>>
>>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
river
>> but
>>>> not infantry.
>>>>
>>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
>> putting
>>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
>> stories.
>>>>
>>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
Coast.
>> The
>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
>> Manhatten I
>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
rise.
>>>>
>>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
a
>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
here!).
>
>> The
>>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
to
>> water level
>>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
> and
>>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>>
>>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>>
>>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>>
>>>> sticking to it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jeff:
>>>>
>>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just
below
>> City
>>>> Island across from the city?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>>> To: GDG
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
that
>> is
>>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
river
>>>> flowed free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Namaste
>>>>
>>>> Jeff Burk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
but
>>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>>
>>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
side
>> of
>>>> the river.
>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
state
>>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
using
>
>> it
>>>> to
>>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg
is
>> on
>>>> the
>>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
city
>>>> from
>>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
>> the
>>>> ANV
>>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried
to
>> save
>>>> it.
>>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>>> bridges
>>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
> another
>>>> until
>>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
rebuilt
>>>> later
>>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
>> easily
>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
> covered
>>>> bridge
>>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
and
>
>> the
>>>> flames
>>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Margaret
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
thing
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
>> fire
>>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
> destroying
>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
>> aggressive as
>>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
>> Antietam,
>>>>
>>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
>> being a
>>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
>> Warhorse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
concerned
>>>> about
>>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
>> his.
>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
thing
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
>> forces
>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
North.
>>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
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>>>> m
>>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>>
>>
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>>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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Message: 60
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:29:35 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <c1cf.62707c24.3c50a6ef at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thank you Margaret-
ould you mind telling George that you are on my side of the matter?
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:20:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dblough1 at comcast.net writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
om-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared
to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the
ove and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious
bout Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any
ignificant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin
f PA
as one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and
o damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg.
egards,
argaret
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
orry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
ink - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On
g.
03 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
rom Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
t.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
etween Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
.
04
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
e chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
fter.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
GB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
egards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
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Message: 61
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Lee & Harrisburg
essage-ID: <c303.4e536815.3c50a779 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
George!
here's still dirt down here!
have to get it out!
have to.
am making proigress, I can't stop now.
just have to keep digging deeper and then everything will be OK
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 7:26:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
You start off OK, but before you know you're back in that hole again,
igging, digging, and digging. Put down the shovel and accept that Lee hoped to
have at least two of his corps east of the Susquehanna. He said so! We
on't know for how long or what would come next, but's a fact.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Well, George-
As usual with your excellent refutation you blast my little battleship
ut
of the water (Oh the humanity!).
I CAN see Lee sending over a div and cav across the Susq R. It's
completely plausible.
But I can't see Lee sittin down W of the Rap R sin June ending
correspondence with Ol' Jeff going "Gee I'd really like to capture
arrisburg".
I can't see him being fixated on it.
Some people in the GDG play the board game of Risk. When you advance
o
take a "country" on the board you lose peices. There is an attrition
evel
associated with any advancement going on. Then you may just have to
ave a
battle to get into your goal. So you lose more pieces. Then your
nemy
counter-attacks and you have a big battle and then you lose more
ieces.
And if you don't have enough pieces after that battle you lose the
hole
thing and there goes your advance and all the pieces you invested in
he
assault. Look at the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania. An issue of
verwhelming force
and neither side had it so they chewed each other up.
Do you play the game? It is fabulous and if I ran West Point or some
other miltary academy I would require the cadets to play the game all
our
years. It is so instructive.
I don't think Lee was sitting around itching to get Hrsbg. I see the
ld
Gambler as moving N to get the devastation out of the S and maybe have
n
advantageous battle with the AoP. Two maxims of battle: overwhelming
orce
and balance.
By threatening Harrisburg Lee would have the initiative and advantage.
He
could knock the N off balance by threatening the town. As the Great
oker
Player Lee's best asset was his focus on manueverablity.
What happens when that manueverability goes away? That's his best card.
Picture the whole ANV in Hrsbg. Half of his army is either drunk in
he
saloons or lost in the brothels of town, which with the location of
amp
Curtain there must have had a bustling business. The AoP occupations
f
Frederick MD render interesting witness to that. Coddington goes into
he
problem a bit.
And let's say Lee does take Hrsbg- and clearly that could have been
one
in June easily then the AoP comes up and renders siege. THEN other
orces
are brought in from around the country. Part of Rosecrans's army could
ave
been sent by rail in a few days. There were 30k men in DC and 5k in
alt.
Throw those in and Lee would be surrounded, cut off from forage, and
mmo
would be running low.
And for what? Harrisburg?
It was a RR town and junction. Miltary value. A supply base.
ilitary
value. I think the Penn Central 4-track stone arch bridge, N of town,
as
built by then. Camp Curtain- a military target.
But risk losing your army- ONLY army of the Conf in the east protecting
Richmond?
Lee's supply lines were to the Cumberland. If he takes his whole army
across that massive river he's screwed.
I can see him telling Ewell to send in a Div or 2 to take the town...
He wanted to scare the beejeezus out of Andrew Curtian, Darius Couch,
Stanton and Lincoln. He wanted to get the AoP out in the open and
estroy it
"The enemy is there and we shall attack".
I think he would have bordered the town, scared the Yanks out and sent
n
enough troops to destroy anything of military value and maybe collect a
ransom. But, think about it George, his army starts falling apart in
own and
eventually he is going to be surrounded by the Yanks with no way to
ross
the Susq R and get back to the Cumberland.
I'd like to see a good argument or position put forth that lays the
isk
of Lee capturing the town versus being trapped and surrounded in a
orthern
city with no communications to the South.
Can you give an argument or case stating how risking the destruction of
his army was worth the occupation of some little dinky capital city
ith mud
streets full of yokels?
Like playing the game of Risk there is a cost to every movement.
FOOTNOTE: The RR bridge over the Susq R is just massive as all hell (
Sorry Margaret ;-{)). 4 tracks. I think it was in place pre-Civil
ar.
RE: the destruction of masonry bridges it is very difficult. Read
alker's
efforts to destroy the C&O viaduct over the Monocacy pre-Antietam.
've
been on it a 1000 times and can see why. I have sat-mapped the bridge
number of times tracing the RR lines being a train nut. It's worth a
ook.
FOOTNOTE: I still think Jeff Davis had flies in his eyes.
George- do you like my new sign-off?
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:11:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
e says
Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania
railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington.
(B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on
operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
..
316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
arrisburg.
Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the
ailroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
ill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
ad
advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust
be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected,
but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
he passes.
Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield
Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses,
wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB,
in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
t
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
annot
do is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points
ast
of the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact
rtmy.
He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before
nt.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the
umberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
Harrisburg. To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how
uch
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA)
nd
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source
f
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile
sland.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent
n
low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might
s
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
oast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
ise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay
s
a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares
xperts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just
elow
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than
n
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river
here.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg
s
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried
o
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world
ut
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
hing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern
f
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
orth.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>
---
------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>
>>>
>
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>>>
>>>
>
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>>
>>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 62
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:32:16 -0500
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <07806C821B26439E89206B34DFD26EAA at BIFF>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
his is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a
erious read as opposed to a quick scan. But thank!
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005 -
he article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left
nder PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and
t is written by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/
ndex.htm
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is
huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
e should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one
ast of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was
iving off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
ennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political
oxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
e
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
arrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
ow
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
>> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
>> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
>> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
>> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
>> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
iver
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
>> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
tate
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
sing
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
>> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>> m -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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-----------------------------
Message: 63
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <729445D5BCB54FC29D7666C9F160312B at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252;
reply-type=original
George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya
hrough it.
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ot to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the
lace for it.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
------------------------------
Message: 64
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:30 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D57154AED0CC4686A64F06EC8F717648 at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8;
reply-type=original
Welcome Tom B. #1 - same offer goes out to ya.
Regards,
om B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: Tom Barrett
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:32 PM
o: 'GDG'
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
This is really excellent stuff, but will require (for me, at least) a
erious read as opposed to a quick scan. But thank!
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of Tom
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:59 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Please check the below link - it's from the NPS - Seminar - in 2005 -
he article is "Why Gettysburg" by Tony Nicastro (LBG) - will be on the left
nder PDF format - very interesting in regards to yours and Tom's post - and
t is written by Tony.
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/
ndex.htm
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:40 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
iming is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there is
huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
ross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
e should take that at face value.
As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big one
ast of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and was
iving off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
ennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political
oxes and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross that
iver with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a fact!
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill,
.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
e
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
arrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
ow
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
>> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
>> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
>> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
>> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
>> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
iver
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
ut
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
>> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
tate
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
sing
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
>> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
ity
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>
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>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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Message: 65
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:36:13 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <c56e.42fe8a25.3c50a87d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Wow~
nother complement.
am going to put another mark on the wall here. Pisses the landlord off
ut makes me feel good.
TW- did you tell George this? He just sank my battleship.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 5:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eneral.jackson at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ackson used surprise to keeps the Yanks off balance
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Peter,
You are so very correct in your assessment. Jackson was at times so
ecretive he did not inform his staff as to his plans.
espectfully,
William Richardson
ount Gilead, North Carolina
ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate
tates Of America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts
or
our long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of
enial.
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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-----------------------------
Message: 66
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:10:50 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2771B6B0-EA6A-4844-AA63-A1450B9C043F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Thanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars
ike this. It's great stuff!
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through
t.
Regards,
Tom B.
-----Original Message----- From: George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place
or it.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
>
> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
>
> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
>
> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 67
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:16:23 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <7BBC3919-0ECD-434B-B212-117EAB294669 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Oops. Missed this answer. Thanks again.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:24 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click on it
you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format - they are
riceless - stumbled upon this while searching for something else - I actually
ave the physical copies - bought them at the VC - but this is cheaper ;-D , and
etter.
Regards,
Tom B.
-----Original Message----- From: George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:19 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Thank you Tom. This is a resource I didn't know about. Would you know if the
ark has done other things like this or was it a one-time deal?
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same link
but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg. 103 -
Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
>
> Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barrett
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
> To: 'GDG'
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>
> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p.. 316.
>
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
> 204
>
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
>
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>
> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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Message: 68
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:31:22 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "gdG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Fw: ALBG Scholarly Seminars
essage-ID: <350C14ECEF1B4F378BAB3F357E670D7D at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
For those who care.
egards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: "John Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:51 AM
ubject: ALBG Scholarly Seminars
http://www.gettysburgtourguides.org/seminar.html
-----------------------------
Message: 69
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:30:27 -0500
rom: Tom <bunco973 at optonline.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <D762A787E3FD46A89DB9D5461C91D89C at TomPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
You're quite welcome - as a matter of fact - they do have a seminar this April
3th - 15th - you have to register - link below:
http://www.nps.gov/gett/historyculture/2012-seminar.htm
We?ve already booked it ? a great program ? 2 tours ? seminars ? and an evening
ith David Kincaid ? singing Irish C.W. ballads. Well worth it!!!
Regards,
om B.
----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:10 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hanks Tom. I've done that, but was wondering if the Park did any more seminars
ike this. It's great stuff!
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Tom wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George - not to clutter the group - you can download the individual seminars
o your PC - if a problem - just shoot an e-mail to me - I'll walk ya through
t.
Regards,
Tom B.
-----Original Message----- From: George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:27 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place
or it.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
>
> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
>
> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
>
> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
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Message: 70
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:35:24 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <A5446E57-8E9C-4A34-9519-EF5453192081 at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Margaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to assume
hat Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the Susquehanna and
hen pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as he
tated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the
ther side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that
ee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight
he AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need
ll his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various
nion corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by
rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one
nother.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of
udacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we die."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and prepared to
ove when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the move and
lready north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite serious about
arrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any significant length of
ime, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin of PA was one of the
eaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President) and do damage to the
ail hub in Harrisburg.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On Pg.
103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'GDG'
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 71
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:18 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e498.18dec416.3c50b691 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
argaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to
ssume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the
usquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river
as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's
n the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to
peculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been
illing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats,
owever. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the
ocations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps
ere exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to
rovide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of
udacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we
ie."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and
repared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the
move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite
erious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any
ignificant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin
f
A was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President)
nd do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On
g.
103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'GDG'
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
ushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
rederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
ill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern
nfantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
hey
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
he
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
t
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
annot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
f
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
----------------http://www.arthes.com/m
ilman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to unsubscribe
http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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Message: 72
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:41:00 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <AAE83D4A-0C68-4BD3-AE0E-C180F5860CBC at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
WIlliam,
I just don't know how more scholarly references to provide. I'm not saying it
as a good idea or a bad one. I'm not trying to justify the benefits or minimize
he risks. I'm just pointing out that Lee SAID he wanted to go to Harrisburg and
e gave instructions to Ewell and Hill to cross that river.
Best,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:25 PM, William Richardson wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg. To
e
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter,
I have to agree with you on this. I do not think Lee ever intended on
apturing and holding any city nor to cross his whole army over the
Susquehanna River. To do so would have been the death bell to the AoNV. I
hink he planned to raid Harrisburg for supplies and to throw
panic throughout the North.
Respectfully,
William Richardson
Mount Gilead, North Carolina
Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
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Message: 73
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:42:57 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e7e8.5e29ae1.3c50b821 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Dammit George!
nother excellent contribution.
hate that from you.
ou are much better than me.
ut I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg,
ust the minimum possible.
s a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with me?
e'll get John Grim. He knows good chili.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
argaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to
ssume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the
usquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river
as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's
n the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to
peculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been
illing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats,
owever. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the
ocations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps
ere exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to
rovide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of
udacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we
ie."
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and
repared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on the
move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite
erious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any
ignificant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew Curtin
f
A was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President)
nd do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg.
Regards,
Margaret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On
g.
103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
Regards, Tom B.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Barrett
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'GDG'
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
ushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
rederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
ill, p.
204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern
nfantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
hey
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
37.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
he
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
icastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
t
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
annot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
f
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
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Message: 74
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:55:57 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <D5C68CDC008449A980C403D9C0C2C890 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Matt Diestel" <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:36 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Jack Lawrence Contributes:
>
> As an addendum and not a counterpoint, Both the ANV and the AoP divided
> their forces prior to the battle.
> The ANV dived its forces to draw the AoP out of its rear, it was already
> trapped, so what the hey.
> The AoP divided it's forces to intercept a confederat lunge out of the
> Cumberland that was never going to happen.
> Then the two armies blundered together and threw everything they had in
> piecemeal.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> As an addendum to the addendum --- the instructions given Meade was
> not
> to only intercept Lee but to cover the city of Washington at the same
> time.
> Given those orders, the pre-battle deployment of the AOP was perhaps the
> best options Meade had to accomplished two very separate primary missions
> requiring the army to act in both an offensive and defensive mode at the
> same time.
With regards,
Chet
Chet,
His specific orders were not to intercept Lee and cover Washington.
They were to cover washington and ddefeat Lee.
Little more leeway in that.
Regards,
Jack
ooker had consistently wanted to grapple lee down on the river, and IMHO,
as content foe Lee to come back out.
------------------------------
Message: 75
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:00:22 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <49577D2414FF4C16ABD9B3712835F0C1 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
If Meade had maintained Hooker's position, hje was prepared to move and
ntercept Lee from Marylan if Lee came out of the Cumberland valley.
Given that Halleck and kincoln were well aware of Lee's movement north had
eally considered any border incursion as a serious threat, I think it is
nlikely that they really cared what Lee did as long as DC was safe. they
ere concentrated on Vicksburg at the time. I get the impression that
incoln, at least, was pretty sanguibe about the whole thing, other than an
ppurtunity to defeat Lee.
There was never a real threat.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Matt Diestel" <agatematt at gmail.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:21 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
Esteemed GDG Member George Connell Contributes:
In an addendum to the addendum to the addendum, I believe his orders
required him to cover Baltimore as well.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
George --- Right you are on the latest addendum to the previous addendums.
Given how skittish Halleck, Stanton etc. were about Lee's supposed
capabilities, have always been surprised that Meade wasn't ordered to
cover
Boston as well.
With regards,
Chet
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Message: 76
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:07:19 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <B07C669C-7047-4060-9C5F-522C632949CE at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thank you, Peter.
I don't think he would have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having
aptured it, I expect he would have quickly reduced the number to that
ufficient to control the town and destroy its war-fighting facilities.
One reason is that there were important objectives outside Harrisburg to be
estroyed. For that we have a bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to follow
n trace of Ewell, but then to focus on targets east of Harrisburg. Another
eason is that he would have had to maneuver quickly to fight the various Union
orps separately.
You can be sure, if actually were to have happened, that Lee would never sit
till and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a well-rested and
ell-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been everything.
Regards,
eorge
n Jan 24, 2012, at 20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Dammit George!
Another excellent contribution.
I hate that from you.
You are much better than me.
But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg,
just the minimum possible.
As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with me?
We'll get John Grim. He knows good chili.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Margaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to
assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the
Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river
(as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's
on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to
speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been
willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats,
however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information on the
locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps
were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to
provide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number of
audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or we
die."
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and
prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP was on
he
move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite
serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any
significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew
urtin of
PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the President)
and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Margaret
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the same
> link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ". On
Pg.
> 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
>
> Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Barrett
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
> To: 'GDG'
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
Frederick,
> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>
> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p.. 316.
>
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
Hill, p.
> 204
>
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern
infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
137.
>
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>
> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
cannot do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Message: 77
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:11:32 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <f5d3.7730dd5.3c50bed4 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Yayyyyy!!!!!
inally Sir-
e see finally eye-to-eye. I can see putting a raiding/expeditionary
orce into Hrsbg but to invest it would be nuts. Just suicide.
ou are so much cooler than me. I find that hard to accept.
well....
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:07:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hank you, Peter.
I don't think he would have put a large force in Harrisburg either. Having
aptured it, I expect he would have quickly reduced the number to that
ufficient to control the town and destroy its war-fighting facilities.
One reason is that there were important objectives outside Harrisburg to
e destroyed. For that we have a bit evidence in his instructions to Hill to
ollow in trace of Ewell, but then to focus on targets east of Harrisburg.
nother reason is that he would have had to maneuver quickly to fight the
arious Union corps separately.
You can be sure, if actually were to have happened, that Lee would never
it still and let Meade come to him at his leisure. Speed, with a
ell-rested and well-fed ANV against an exhausted AoP, would have been
verything.
Regards,
eorge
n Jan 24, 2012, at 20:42, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Dammit George!
Another excellent contribution.
I hate that from you.
You are much better than me.
But I still don't think Lee would have put the whole ANV in Harrisburg,
just the minimum possible.
As a heretic to your P.O.V would you still not share a pale ale with
e?
We'll get John Grim. He knows good chili.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 8:35:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Margaret,
I don't understand why so many esteemed members of this group want to
assume that Lee would have sent as small a force as possible across the
Susquehanna and then pulled it back as soon as possible.
If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river
(as he stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave
ongstreet's
on the other side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to
speculate that Lee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have
een
willing to fight the AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some
aveats,
however. He would need all his cavalry with him; detailed information
n the
locations of the various Union corps; and the confidence that the AoP
orps
were exhausted, strung out by a rushed pursuit, and not in position to
provide meaningful support to one another.
Risky? You bet. But Lee was never afraid of risk. History has a number
f
audacious commanders burning their boats and telling troops "We win or
e
die."
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Margaret D. Blough wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Tom-The Second Corps was just across the river from Harrisburg and
prepared to move when Lee called it back after learning that the AOP
as on the
move and already north of the Mason-Dixon line. I think Lee was quite
serious about Harrisburg. I don't believe he meant to occupy it for any
significant length of time, just long enough to score a PR coup (Andrew
urtin of
PA was one of the leaders of the "War Governors" supporting the
resident)
and do damage to the rail hub in Harrisburg.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Margaret
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:08:00 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Sorry, more specifically , re: your below posts on Harrisburg - the
ame
> link - but the article " Our Whole Force Was Directed ........... ".
n
Pg.
> 103 - "Why Harrisburg" (scroll down in the PDF to Page 103._
>
> Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Barrett
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:26 PM
> To: 'GDG'
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
eft
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
ut
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the
ast
side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited
or
the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of George Connell
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>
> ? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
Frederick,
> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy
he
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore,
r
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for
n
his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>
> ? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>
> ? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
> it.? O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> ? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
> p.. 316.
>
> ? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> ? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the
ailroad
> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
Hill, p.
> 204
>
> ? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern
infantry
> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
they
> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
137.
>
> ? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
> after.? Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> ? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>
> ? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
Nicastro,
> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
cannot do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points
ast
of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
>
>
>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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>
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Message: 78
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:12:25 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <27DBFFCDD111414097FD75D0A190610B at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original
Hello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
ee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he wanted
o do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid
nough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but a
aid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a
wift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the
nemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon
ompletion of the assigned mission.
The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more than it was.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
ichmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he
ays Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R.,
7, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
16.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg.
ich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross
he Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between
arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
hose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had
dvanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must
e around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
ut will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
ettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in
lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
I love you Man....
But I DO doubt it......
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg.
To me
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
had before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
> is a fascinating river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany, NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
the
>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>
>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>> huge
>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
number of
>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
well
>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
stories.
>>
>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
The
>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
water level
>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>> and
>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>>
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
of
>> the river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>> capital and RR center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
it
>> to
>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>> bridges
>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>>> another
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>>> covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
the
>> flames
>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
fire
>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>>> destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
being a
>>> balanced combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>
>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>> about
>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Message: 79
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:18:30 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <f8bd.7b421b8e.3c50c076 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of
ee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and was
lmost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have the
esources to penetrate it.
t was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move. Kinda
ike a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
ee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he wanted
o do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
obby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid
nough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but
aid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a
wift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the
nemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon
ompletion of the assigned mission.
The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more than it was.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
ichmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he
ays Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
ennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
ashington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
is
houghts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
arrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
.R.,
7, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
16.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg.
ich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
ross
he Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between
arrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
hose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had
dvanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
ust
e around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
ut will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
ettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
tterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
asses. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
attlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
ait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB,
n
lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
ets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
o
s doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
he Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
egards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
George....
I love you Man....
But I DO doubt it......
Think of the consequences for Lee.
Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
e
takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
arrisburg.
To me
it makes no sense.
So I do doubt it.,
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
ong
they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
had before the AoP would have been close.
Regards,
George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
> is a fascinating river.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Gillespie
> Parsippany, NJ
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>
>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
the
>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>
>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>> huge
>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>
>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
ow
>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>
>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
number of
>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
well
>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>
>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
but
>> not infantry.
>>
>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
putting
>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
stories.
>>
>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
The
>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
Manhatten I
>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>
>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
a
>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>
>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
The
>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
water level
>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>> and
>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>
>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>
>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>> sticking to it.
>>
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jeff:
>>
>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City
>> Island across from the city?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
is
>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
iver
>> flowed free.
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
ut
>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
of
>> the river.
>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
tate
>>> capital and RR center.
>>>
>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
sing
it
>> to
>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
on
>> the
>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
ity
>> from
>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
the
>> ANV
>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
save
>> it.
>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>> bridges
>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>>> another
>> until
>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
ebuilt
>> later
>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
easily
>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>>> covered
>> bridge
>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
the
>> flames
>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Margaret
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
fire
>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>
>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>>> destroying
>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
aggressive as
>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
Antietam,
>>
>>> Gtysbg,
>>> & Monocacy.
>>>
>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
being a
>>> balanced combination.
>>>
>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>
>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
Warhorse.
>>>
>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
oncerned
>> about
>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
his.
>> And
>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
ig
>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
over
>>> without a
>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
forces
>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>
>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
orth.
>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> m
>>> -to unsubscribe
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Message: 80
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:27:15 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <7AEDD7441304441E937227EC05889880 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on
he GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee
o an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
------------------------------
Message: 81
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:33:49 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <ffbd.3cce327d.3c50c40d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jack...
am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
e says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
arrisburg.
an you please address him in this matter?
really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
lease talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I
hink it is worth the effort.
-{) !!!!!
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
rom: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
ith the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
ossession
f some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
ay a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
ildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
t made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
ide
f the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
ts legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
arrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
nevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
n
he GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
ee
o an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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-----------------------------
Message: 82
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:49:04 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <F758E5AAEB4C4CFB95F3BCC129561AFB at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
First,
We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!!
ary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our
aptain is Italian.
I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but
ot lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression
picked up somewhere.
Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC?
---- Original Message -----
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of
Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and
was
almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have
the
resources to penetrate it.
It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move.
Kinda
like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Hello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he
wanted
to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid
enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but
a
raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a
swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the
enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal
upon
completion of the assigned mission.
The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more than it was.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he
says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
O.R.,
27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg.
Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross
the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between
Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had
advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must
be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB,
in
a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
> Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
> go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
Harrisburg.
> To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
> To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
> time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>>> huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
>>> river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
>>> Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
>>> rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
>>> here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
>>> to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>>> and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
>>> that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
>>>> side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>>>> another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>>>> covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
>>>> and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>>>> destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
>>>> thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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Message: 83
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:51:52 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <31532F75B1914DCD975DDB9629A3802F at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack...
I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
Harrisburg.
Can you please address him in this matter?
I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
I
think it is worth the effort.
;-{) !!!!!
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
on
the GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
Lee
to an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
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Message: 84
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:56:55 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <10953.10d3ab2c.3c50c977 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
So what's wrong with an Italian captain? If you follow him closely you'll
e the 2nd person off the boat when it starts to sink. Nuttin wrong with
hat.
-{)
o you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but
hope it will make people leave me alone. A lot of Libertarians ask too
any questions.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 9:49:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
irst,
We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!!
ary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our
aptain is Italian.
I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but
ot lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my
mpression
picked up somewhere.
Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC?
---- Original Message -----
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of
Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and
was
almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have
the
resources to penetrate it.
It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move.
Kinda
like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Hello.
Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he
wanted
to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid
enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything
ut
a
raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a
swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse
he
enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal
upon
completion of the assigned mission.
The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
Time to go home.
Let's not make this more than it was.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he
says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.?
O.R.,
27, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg.
Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross
the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between
Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had
advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must
be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
xpected,
but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.?
Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block
he
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
asses,
wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
GB,
in
a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but
t
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
annot
do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before
nt.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
> Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
> go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
Harrisburg.
> To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
> To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
> time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.
t
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source
f
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>>> huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile
sland.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might
s
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
>>> river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
>>> Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
>>> rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay
s
a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
>>> here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need
y
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
>>> to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>>> and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I
m
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just
elow
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
>>> that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than
n
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
>>>> side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river
here.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg
s
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried
o
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world
ut
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>>>> another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>>>> covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
>>>> and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
hing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed,
y
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>>>> destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern
f
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
>>>> thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>> m
>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>
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>>>> -to unsubscribe
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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Message: 85
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:16:28 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <C494B935-9D64-4749-981B-FDC962081642 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Jack,
First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in support.
Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over
he river is more than a raid.
I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail as
hey came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why
ouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be
o exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west
f it? Breezewood?
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on
he GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee
o an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
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Message: 86
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:18:33 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <3C068B9B-0B50-4DCA-B788-E4B5D8441C18 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Peter,
I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down the
hovel and look them up!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack...
I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
Harrisburg.
Can you please address him in this matter?
I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I
think it is worth the effort.
;-{) !!!!!
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
on
the GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
Lee
to an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
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Message: 87
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:26:39 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <114d7.1489a0a0.3c50d06f at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Actually there's some good cheap restaurants in Breezewood.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:17:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at me.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack,
First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
upport.
Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions
o cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he
as planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army
ver the river is more than a raid.
I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and
altimore. What's west of it? Breezewood?
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled on the GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
ee to an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
t.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
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Message: 88
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:29:26 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11606.3615928.3c50d116 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
You are a good man, my friend George.
have tuff standards for respect. Please... tell me I am full of crap
ny time.... It's good for me when it comes from people,who explain to me
e why.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at me.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down
he shovel and look them up!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack...
I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
Harrisburg.
Can you please address him in this matter?
I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man
hat I
think it is worth the effort.
;-{) !!!!!
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
eft
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
ushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
ut
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled
on
the GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that
randiosize
Lee
to an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat
Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
t.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 89
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:32:10 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <A80762BC-D493-4B77-906C-44295FD56425 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Jack,
I think you need to take another look at a map!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message ----- From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{) !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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------------------------------
Message: 90
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:33:15 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327462395.40834.YahooMailNeo at web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and? invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the? city.
>
> Please talk to him about this.? I have such high regard? for the man that
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{)? !!!!!
>
> A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom? Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26? PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months? ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee,? being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was? using Harrisburg
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to? have the AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.? Preferably cavalry.
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving? force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the? AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston,? Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far,? but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned? the warehouses, and waited for
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the? West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are? correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the? GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that? grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even? though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was? never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But,? as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal? WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the? length was getting? onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>? -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>? -to unsubscribe
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 91
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:34:56 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <1184a.5d2a2000.3c50d260 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I HAVE got to learn how my computer works. My fingers need only whisp past
he keyboard and it wanders off. I am sorry.
nyway George, I am in the GDG to learn- I'll fight & argue anytime but
how me I am wrong and I'll admit it.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:30:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
WMHTours at aol.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ou are a good man, my friend George.
I have tuff standards for respect. Please... tell me I am full of crap
ny time.... It's good for me when it comes from people,who explain to
e
e why.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:19:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eorgeconnell at me.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
eter,
I didn't say it; Lee said it. I gave you the precise references. Put down
he shovel and look them up!
Regards,
George
On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:33 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack...
I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
Harrisburg.
Can you please address him in this matter?
I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man
hat I
think it is worth the effort.
;-{) !!!!!
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
eft
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using
arrisburg
he
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
ushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
ut
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the
ast
side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
etween
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
herever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited
or
he
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
Hello.
You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled
on
the GDG.
There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that
randiosize
Lee
to an unsubstainable level.
Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat
Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
t.)
There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
Regards,
Jack
BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
-to unsubscribe
http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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-----------------------------
Message: 92
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:39:53 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11a4b.7497fa6c.3c50d389 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff! Don't let him know that!
o you know what kind of trouble we are going to have in here once he
iggers that out?
SSSHHHH Don't say anything. Maybe he won't notice.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:33:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
amaste
Jeff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man
hat
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{) !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
eft
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using
arrisburg
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited
or
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled
> on
> the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that
randiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
>
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Message: 93
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:42:02 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <803D5989C6234F26AD65F153F1C606E5 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
---- Original Message -----
rom: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack,
First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
eorge, here is what Faulkner said.
as Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about
eart attacks.
nd I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
ou overreact.
For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants
t, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July
fternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the
uns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already
oosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and
is hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill
aiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it
asn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet
ut there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those
ircumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and
ilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come
oo far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a
ourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much
o lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the
olden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable
ictory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago.
- William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
support.
I am not sure what this is all about.
>
Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long
discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
I think this is the same thing.
On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to
cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was
planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army
over the river is more than a raid.
Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
efore you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a
atural barrier.
> I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and
altimore. What's west of it? Breezewood?
Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans
here.
George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But
k, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
he only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
TW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
HAT is patronizing.
Regards,
ack
What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
" <gettysburg at arthes.com
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
> Lee to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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------------------------------
Message: 94
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:44:06 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <9308F25064DA424EAAEA1806479DDE91 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
egards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
amaste
Jeff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{) !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
> on
> the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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------------------------------
Message: 95
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:48:29 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <11e75.2571dc72.3c50d58d at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
No fool.... Once again you have it all wrong. It flows from the Gulf
orthwards up the Mississippi north to the Susq R where it also starts
lowing north.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
hat means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
egards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
amaste
Jeff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack...
>
> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>
> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
> Harrisburg.
>
> Can you please address him in this matter?
>
> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>
> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
> I
> think it is worth the effort.
>
> ;-{) !!!!!
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
> the
> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
> rushing
> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>
> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
> But
> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
> between
> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>
> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
> the
> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>
> Regards,
>
> TB
>
> Hello.
>
> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled
> on
> the GDG.
>
> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
> Lee
> to an unsubstainable level.
>
> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat
> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
> it.)
>
> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>
>
>
>
> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
>
---------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
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>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
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-----------------------------
Message: 96
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:55:13 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <20567FE5DD85493FBB1731788B3C755A at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Don't read this in the morning.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:48 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
No fool.... Once again you have it all wrong. It flows from the Gulf
northwards up the Mississippi north to the Susq R where it also starts
flowing north.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter
In a message dated 1/24/2012 10:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out
N-S
Namaste
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
>> Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you please address him in this matter?
>>
>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>> I
>> think it is worth the effort.
>>
>> ;-{) !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
>> left
>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>> possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>> the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
>> But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the
>> East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>> between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>> wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
>> "sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
settled
>> on
>> the GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that
>> grandiosize
>> Lee
>> to an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
Great
>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
>> it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>>
>>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>
>
>
>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
m
> -to unsubscribe
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 97
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:36:23 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327466183.4761.YahooMailNeo at web114603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
From:?Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o:?GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>?
ent:?Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
ubject:?Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways,? the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
eff Burk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
o, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. ?:)
espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina
ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America,
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 98
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:38:19 -0500 (EST)
rom: atmackeyjr at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <8CEA9324BB6ADE8-AF4-40F9 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
ome interesting points: Jackson had family who lived in the area and had
isited the Harrisburg area prior to the war. He was familiar with the area and
ith the Susquehanna. One can be forgiven for wondering what kinds of
iscussions the two had in the winter of '62-'63 and in the weeks prior to
hancellorsville regarding the possibility of capturing Pennsylvania's capital
ity.
Best Regards,
l Mackey
----Original Message-----
rom: George Connell georgeconnell at mac
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:11 pm
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ter,
ome relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
? During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from Richmond
th his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he says Lee told
m that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the Pennsylvania railroad
idge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington. (B&L, vol. 3).
e also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his thoughts on operating east of
e Susquehanna during this campaign.
? Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in Harrisburg
three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
? Lee to Ewell: ?If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.? O.R.,
, pt.3. p.914
? ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p.. 316.
? June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture Harrisburg. Rich
ohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
? Lee?s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early, cross the
squehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad between
rrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
? "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He chose
is objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry had advanced to
e Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they must be around
rlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
? Lee: ?To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected, but
ll go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.? Gettysburg
body Knows, pp 110-111.
? Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous utterances.
changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the passes. Tony
castro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
27/6
? In Lee?s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes, wait
r Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a
cture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
ow that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it gets
petitious.
ou can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do is
ubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of the
squehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
eorge
?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
------------------------------
Message: 99
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:55:32 -0500 (EST)
rom: atmackeyjr at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <8CEA934B34C683E-AF4-41B7 at webmail-d095.sysops.aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
pay local taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the
usquehanna River. There must be some reason they don't call it the South Shore
ax Bureau. : )
Best Regards,
l Mackey
-----Original Message-----
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com
ent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
ck, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
eff Burk
------------------------------
Message: 100
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:10:59 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <014F4A529E9D4EE289FEA7D567683487 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one
onference room.
o when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back
nd sit at a picknik table.
t wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the
innesota side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is
n the Hudson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a
leasant afternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are
ant when out of towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the
ocale.
hey pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south
o north river in the country.
pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below
emphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee
lows NORTH also.
o, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to
est.
couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me
hey were correct.
So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
his is not to patronize anyone.
ow that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone?
till 500 miles away from home?
regards,
jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
Jeff Burk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with
everything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
Respectfully,
William Richardson
Mount Gilead, North Carolina
Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
America, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four
long years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of
denial.
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Message: 101
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:12:20 -0600
rom: "Jack Lawrence" <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <309E9FA57D4E480BB9E2E5B9B1ED6042 at jackPC>
ontent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Ignorance?
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message -----
rom: <atmackeyjr at aol.com>
o: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:55 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I pay local taxes to the West Shore Tax Bureau--the West Shore of the
Susquehanna River. There must be some reason they don't call it the South
Shore Tax Bureau. : )
Best Regards,
Al Mackey
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: GDG gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
eff Burk
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------------------------------
Message: 102
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:15:43 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327468543.61054.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE course towards the bay when it hits
entral Pa.?, but never does it take a east course.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
Namaste
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
>> Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you please address him in this matter?
>>
>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>> I
>> think it is worth the effort.
>>
>> ;-{)? !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>> possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>> the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea.? Preferably cavalry.
>> But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>> between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>> wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
>> on
>> the GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
>> Lee
>> to an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
>> it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 103
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:23:34 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327469014.86783.YahooMailNeo at web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow
elow Harrisburg.
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
?Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one conference
oom.
So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back
nd sit at a picknik table.
It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously
ot the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At
hat point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay
atershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to
orth river in the country.
I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville along
aldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis until
t flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH also.
No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from
he headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me
hey were correct.
So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
This is not to patronize anyone.
Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do
ith those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500
iles away from home?
regards,
jack
----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
>
> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>
>
> Namaste
>
> Jeff Burk
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>
> Respectfully,
>
> William Richardson
> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>
>
> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
to unsubscribe
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 104
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:58:57 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID: <1ufbn27yyo290msyfh6mdb40.1327445937319 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks.
meant was it used to cool the plant.
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Not sure what you mean Jack, but the short answer is not really.? Long answer
s that on the other end of the island from the power plant is the end of the
ork Haven Dam at Conewago Falls that is the water for the Conewago power plant.
?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:50 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>Doors the damning have anything to do with three mile island?
>Regards,
>Jack
>
>Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed
ree.
>>
>>
>>?Namaste
>>?
>>Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but very
>>>wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>
>>>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
>>>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.?
>>>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
>>>capital and RR center.
>>>
>>>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>>>
>>>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>Peter?
>>>
>>>
>>>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
>>>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>>>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using it to
>>>cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg is on the
>>>east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack the city from
>>>both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's? destruction, the ANV
>>>generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and? tried to save it.
>>>>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but bridges
>>>were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't another until
>>>>Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could? be rebuilt later
>>>but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision? wasn't easily
>>>obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood &? stone covered
ridge
>>>believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at? the time and the
lames
>>>that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite? supports.
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>Margaret
>>>
>>>----- Original? Message -----
>>>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM?
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>>>> And
>>>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
>>>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing over
>>>without a
>>>whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by fire
>>>(not the granite supports? of course), by Union militia.
>>>Regards, Tom B.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
>>>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>Dave,
>>>
>>>Respectfully Sir,
>>>
>>>I think we disagree,? sir.
>>>
>>>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
>>>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
>>>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
>>>Gtysbg,
>>>& Monocacy.
>>>
>>>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>>>balanced? combination.
>>>
>>>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
>>>
>>>The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>
>>>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>>>
>>>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
>>>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
>>>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
>>>without a
>>>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
>>>
>>>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>>>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
>>>
>>>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
>>>Everything else was a subset.
>>>
>>>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>Peter?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>>? -to unsubscribe
>>>http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for? Archives?
>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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>>>
>>>
>>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 105
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:34:40 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <2ildh0qvg38fpce21r3q3ih4.1327469680470 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
And it goes east
Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the
ourse of the Susquehanna?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow
elow Harrisburg.
?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one
onference room.
>So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back
nd sit at a picknik table.
>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River (obviously
ot the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota side. At
hat point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson Bay
atershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south to
orth river in the country.
>I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH
lso.
>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow from
he headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me
hey were correct.
>
>So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>
>Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>
>And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>This is not to patronize anyone.
>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to do
ith those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still 500
iles away from home?
>
>regards,
>
>jack
>----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>>
>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> William Richardson
>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>
>>
>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>
>
>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 106
ate: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:03:51 -0800 (PST)
rom: William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327475031.86182.YahooMailNeo at web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
?From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ccording to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.?
Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in
tsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border
nd across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake
ay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.??
?It runs mostly North & South....Not East to West Jack.?
Thank you and goodnight....
espectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina
ro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America,
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
------------------------------
Message: 107
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:11:22 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <fee7vua1vaim7wpsf775nsyr.1327475482676 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The watershed I'd east.
egards
ack
William Richardson <general.jackson at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
?From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
Regards,
Jack?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, 3rd Edition.?
Susquehanna: River, Central New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland; rises in
tsego Lake, Otsego County, central New York, flows S across Pennsylvania border
nd across E Pennsylvania and NE corner of Maryland to empty into N Chesapeake
ay; 444 Miles. ? Page 1141 ?left hand?column.??
?It runs mostly North & South....Not East to West Jack.?
Thank you and goodnight....
?
Respectfully,
? ? ?William Richardson
? ? ?Mount Gilead, North Carolina
Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of America,
ut-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long years. Who
esort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.?
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Message: 108
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:07:40 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <18c43.50fc9c3.3c514a8b at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Jeff Burk-
y friend-
ho are you?
o you live in Penn? I am in DC.
hy don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and chili?
e'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam. It is 7AM and I woke up an
our ago worrying about the the dam full of silt would burst and poison the
hesapeake. Not the first time I couldn't sleep worrying about the
onowingo.
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
o Jack it does not. It does take a SSE course towards the bay when it
its central Pa. , but never does it take a east course.
amaste
Jeff Burk
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
That means the Susquehanna flows south from harrisburg to the gulf?
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Burk" <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out
-S
Namaste
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and west.
>
>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee looked at it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack...
>>
>> I am having some issues with the illustrious George in the matter.
>>
>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps east of the Susq R and invest
>> Harrisburg.
>>
>> Can you please address him in this matter?
>>
>> I really like the guy but I don't see no investment of the city.
>>
>> Please talk to him about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>> I
>> think it is worth the effort.
>>
>> ;-{) !!!!!
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom Barrett" <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>> To: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was
eft
>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>> possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
>> the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
>> But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
>> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>> between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
>> wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have
sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
>> the
>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled
>> on
>> the GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that
randiosize
>> Lee
>> to an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
reat
>> Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know
>> it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>> Harrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Message: 109
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:08:38 -0500 (EST)
rom: CWMHTours at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <18c7b.3e81a5f3.3c514ac6 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
YES!
Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter
n a message dated 1/25/2012 1:08:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
nd it goes east
Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining
he course of the Susquehanna?
egards,
ack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say. But you are
rong. Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w
low below Harrisburg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
Namaste
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one
onference room.
>So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out
ack and sit at a picknik table.
>It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota
side. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the
udson Bay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant
fternoon. The point is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out
f towners are around) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only
outh to north river in the country.
>I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from
ashville along Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to
elow
emphis until it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee
lows NORTH also.
>No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the
low from the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to
est.
>A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who
old me they were correct.
>
>So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>
>Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>
>And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I
o north, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>This is not to patronize anyone.
>Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going
o do with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone?
till 500 miles away from home?
>
>regards,
>
>jack
>----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson"
general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>>
>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out
N-S
>>
>>
>> Namaste
>>
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with
verything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> William Richardson
>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>
>>
>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four
ong years. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>
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to unsubscribe
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>>
>
>
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Message: 110
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:42:03 +0000 (UTC)
rom: Ron Chaplin via LinkedIn <member at linkedin.com>
o: John Gross Gdg <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
essage-ID:
<645747031.12799772.1327498923303.JavaMail.app at ela4-bed79.prod>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
LinkedIn
-----------
Ron Chaplin requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:
------------------------------------------
John Gross,
I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.
- Ron
Accept invitation from Ron Chaplin
ttp://www.linkedin.com/e/cmimsm-gxuel0rl-48/q-RiaR17_P2jQ7NH-eBVUPYP-gCEstUgI9/blk/I175951119_60/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYMdBYVcj4NdjARdP59bSFJkSN9kQxJbPkTe3kNd3cRdzkLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=false&tok=26Lgy_w3aSCl41
View profile of Ron Chaplin
ttp://www.linkedin.com/e/cmimsm-gxuel0rl-48/vpn/32510342/woSh/NAME_BASED/?hs=false&tok=32NC-G7qSSCl41
-----------------------------------------
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c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation
------------------------------
Message: 111
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:59:35 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E41E at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks Jeff.
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Jeff Burk
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:15 PM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
i Andy, The Dam I am thinking of is The York Haven Dam at Conewago Falls, it
as built in 1904.? I believe you are referring to the Dock Street Dam built in
913.
Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff:
Out of curiosity:? is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
City Island across from the city?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Your point about the river being shallow is true today.? However that is
ecause the river has been dammed upstream.? during the? war the river flowed
ree.
?Namaste
?
Jeff Burk
>________________________________
>From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer? droughts but
>very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>
>A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than? an
>expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side of the?
iver.
>Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a? state
>capital and RR center.
>
>Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river? there.
>
>A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter
>
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the? Confederates using
>it to cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna.? Harrisburg
>is on the east and this would have enabled the Confederates to? attack
>the city from both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's?
>destruction, the ANV generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it
nd? tried to save it.
>The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the? world but
>bridges were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there? wasn't
>another until Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could?
>be rebuilt later but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of
>precision? wasn't easily obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge
>was a wood &? stone covered bridge believed to be the longest such
>bridge in the world at? the time and the flames that destroyed the wood,
eaving only the granite? supports.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Margaret
>
>----- Original? Message -----
>From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>> And
>in fact, if you think about it, the damn? thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how are you going to? knock the darn thing
>over without a whole lot of valuable time and? trouble? <<< It was
>destroyed, by fire (not the granite supports? of course), by Union
>militia.
>Regards, Tom B.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CWMHTours at aol.com?
>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com?
>Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>
>Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>Dave,
>
>Respectfully Sir,
>
>I think we disagree,? sir.
>
>Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about? destroying
>infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as? aggressive as
>Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for? example, Antietam,
>Gtysbg,
>& Monocacy.
>
>I am not dispersing? you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as being a
>balanced? combination.
>
>By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the? Anvil.
>
>The Hammer was Jackson.
>
>The Anvil was the wonderful? James Peter Longstreet, the Old Warhorse.
>
>Also, just curious, I don't? recall reference to Lee being concerned about
>destroying the RR bridge? over the Susq. R. being a big concern of his. And
>in fact, if you think? about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>granite blocks. Now just how? are you going to knock the darn thing over
>without a
>whole lot of? valuable time and trouble?
>
>Lee's 3 raids up north where just that.? Raids. Move overwhelming forces
>up north and attack piecemeal in? overwhelming force.
>
>The purpose of going north for Lee was to? de-stabilizing the North.
>Everything else was a subset.
>
>A Loyal? Neo-Anti Unionist,
>Peter?
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 112
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:41 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <FFC24AA2-64E6-43A5-AAEA-CDAA8505A837 at me.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to
ay Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We
hould all just give up now!
Regards,
George
On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
And it goes east
Am I. The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the
ourse of the Susquehanna?
Regards,
Jack
Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say. But you are
rong. Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow
elow Harrisburg.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
>
> Namaste
>
> Jeff Burk
>
>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one
onference room.
>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out back
nd sit at a picknik table.
>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota
ide. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson
ay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south
o north river in the country.
>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH
lso.
>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told me
hey were correct.
>>
>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>>
>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>>
>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>> This is not to patronize anyone.
>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still
00 miles away from home?
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> jack
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson" <general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with everything
lse. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> William Richardson
>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>>
>>>
>>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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to unsubscribe
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Message: 113
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:36:13 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <e456a02f1df23.4f20135d at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<< If Lee intended to move Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps across the river (as
e stated) it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't going to leave Longstreet's on the
ther side of a water barrier. I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that
ee, the most audacious commander of the war, might have been willing to fight
he AoP east of the Susquehanna. There are some caveats, however. He would need
ll his cavalry with him; detailed information on the locations of the various
nion corps; and the confidence that the AoP corps were exhausted, strung out by
rushed pursuit, and not in position to provide meaningful support to one
nother. >>
Which is quite a few caveats, and a lot of stuff he didn't have, and wasn't
ikely to get. And if he does cross the Susquehanna, getting back over now
nvolves the far shore still being hostile territory, not VA.
till, I do think he intended to cross a major force, if possible. I wonder,
hough, if his preference wouldn't have been to continue to maneuver, and maybe
ight against any isolated Union force he might encounter, rather than risk a
eneral engagement under such circumstances. Although I can't say I've ever
evoted much thought to the matter, since it never did happen.
ust as a thought, while it wouldn't have been something he could have
nticipated at the time, the post-battle rains which made crossing back into VA
o difficult could have created an extremely critical situation for Lee if he
eed to recross the Susquehanna in a hurry after a reverse on the eastern side
f the river and had no bridges available.
Jim Cameron
-----------------------------
Message: 114
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:54:10 +0000 (GMT)
rom: cameron2 at optimum.net
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
essage-ID: <e493876c1fe93.4f201792 at optonline.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
<< Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
o what's wrong with an Italian captain? If you follow him closely you'll
e the 2nd person off the boat when it starts to sink. Nuttin wrong with
hat.
;-{)
Do you like my new sign-off? I don't know what a neo-anti unionst is but
hope it will make people leave me alone. A lot of Libertarians ask too
any questions.
A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
eter >>
Please SNIP when replying to another post, and if possible select the option in
our e-mail program NOT to include the previous post in your reply. These
engthy replies filled with previous posts end up generating needless digests,
or those members who participate that way.
his is not directed just at you, by the way, but to a number of members who
hould know better by now. And it's becoming more important what with more and
ore people participating Thanks,
im Cameron
-----------------------------
Message: 115
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:15 -0500
rom: Bob Coffman <bcoffman at ohio.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID: <4F20180F.1080607 at ohio.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
om B,
I'm also very grateful! More stuff to read!
- Bob
On 1/24/2012 7:24 PM, Tom wrote:
Your Welcome - on that same page - top left - Introduction - just click
on it - you'll see all the seminars that are available in PDF Format -
they are priceless
------------------------------
Message: 116
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:59:38 -0800 (PST)
rom: Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<1327503578.60823.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack- Actually HACC does offer those classes for potential Licensed Battlefield
uides, but only in the year in
hich the test will be offered.? They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from
ugust thru Nov. and the test
as in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test,
issed the cut off score by 12 points.
ook 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not
ure about, and took the test in Dec.
65 people took the test in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18.? I am still
aiting to give my oral test sometime
his year. They have not announce when the next test will be given.
ancy Householder
estminster, MD
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
o. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the
ay after the battle.
he NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a
artnership of sorts ever since.
an you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service,
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally
ood.
hey do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at the
ACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do yeomen's
ork in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of the
inituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
Regards,
Jack
9
---- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
ubject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg
nd tour some of those battlefields.
Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields?? Or does anyone know of
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which
ne could hire a guide?
It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes
ense).
Thanks,
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
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------------------------------
Message: 117
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:14:25 -0800 (PST)
rom: Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<1327504465.71195.YahooMailNeo at web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the
Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
5 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors
enter and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you
an explain the battle in the time frame of
n average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to
ersonalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG
ill pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include
omething about each of those states in your tour.
he reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have
o show that you can personalize the tour
for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.
lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very
ell. For a two hour time frame,
ou need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the
nowledge to be able to answer
uestions that people might ask.
Nancy Householder
future LBG
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
s I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides,
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
<<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years
go.? >>
As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
Jim Cameron
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
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------------------------------
Message: 118
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:35:04 -0600
rom: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: GDG- Heads-Up - Guide Exam
essage-ID: <20120125073511.D8806CC3 at dm0207.mta.everyone.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Hi,
am forwarding the following information from Fred Hawthorne.
Take Care
Dennis
>I wanted to give you a "heads-up" that the park is 99.5% sure that they
WILL be giving the Gettysburg guide exam this year after all. It is
tentatively scheduled for Saturday, December 1, 2012. Previously they had
announced that another exam would not be held until "2013 at the
earliest." That has now changed.
In the past Harrisburg Area Community College has run a series of
guide-led classes leading up to the exam. Since the demise of HACC's
Continuing Education department the future of those classes was up in the
air. The ALBG was the original sponsor of those programs before turning
them over to HACC many, many years ago when I was still President of the
group. We recently decided to take the program back and are busily
working on lining up facilities and instructors to run the guide test-prep
program starting this August. Precise details will be posted on the ALBG
website at some point before the end of the month.
If you know any members of your Gettysburg Discussion Group who have a
burning desire to become guides here this information may be of value to
them so please feel free to pass it on. Of course they would need to
contact Guide Supervisor Clyde Bell at the park (1195 Baltimore Pike,
Gettysburg, PA 17325) to make certain their name gets put on the list.
Regards,
Fred Hawthorne
------------------------------
Message: 119
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:47:26 -0500
rom: Dave Glorioso <glory at zbzoom.net>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <619B06A7-474E-4C0A-B63E-7694504921EC at zbzoom.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
What is timeframe during which classes are given by HAAC? How is it structured?
hx
lso wanna thank George for sharing his notes
scholar and a gentleman!
ave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:59 AM, Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack- Actually HACC does offer those classes for potential Licensed
attlefield Guides, but only in the year in
which the test will be offered. They did the classes in 2008 and 2010 from
ugust thru Nov. and the test
was in Dec of those years. I took all 16 classes in 2008, and took the test,
issed the cut off score by 12 points.
Took 3 of the classes again in 2010, to brush up on info I missed or was not
ure about, and took the test in Dec.
165 people took the test in Dec 2010, and 19 passed. I was #18. I am still
aiting to give my oral test sometime
this year. They have not announce when the next test will be given.
Nancy Householder
Westminster, MD
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
No. The guides at Gettysburg are unique, they trace their history back to the
ay after the battle.
The NPS inherited them when they took over the park and there has been a
artnership of sorts ever since.
Can you imagine the any bureaucracy recruiting an outside guide service,
fficially sanctioned, to run free across the property.
The other parks do provide tours though, which can be spotty, but generally
ood.
They do have these NPS tours at Gettysburg.
In a perfect world, every battlefield guide everywhere would be a retired
nfantry officer with a degree in history.
But, having sat in on a couple of the prep classes for Battlefield Guides at
he HACC, (they don't hold them anymore) I stumbled into, the LBG guys do
eomen's work in assuring that their guides are a quality product in terms of
he minituae of the field.
Wish they had that kind of program at Normandy.
Regards,
Jack
9
----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12 AM
Subject: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I hope this is "on-topic" and offer my apologies if it is not.
>
> At some point this summer (I don't have anything planned at the moment other
han this is a goal of mine but depends upon having free weekends which are in
hort supply due to some family issues), I would like to get to Fredericksburg
nd tour some of those battlefields.
>
> Is there anything like the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Tour Guides one
ould use for the Fredericksburg area battlefields? Or does anyone know of
eople who do it in their spare time or through a company in the area in which
ne could hire a guide?
>
> It is one of those things where I know the history of what transpired in
redericksburg but someone familiar with the ground and area could show you
hose "out of the way" type places and with the modern town almost on the edge
f the NPS land, it is very hard to know "the ground" as the time of the battle
nd where various points are in relation to each other (I hope this makes
ense).
>
> Thanks,
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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------------------------------
Message: 120
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:52:27 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E5EC at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Nancy:
I can see how important it is to stay in the timeframe. When I take friends to
ettysburg (and by no means do I have even an ounce of the knowledge of the tour
uides), I find myself talking for two hours and we haven't even left
cPherson's Ridge. I think it would take a lot of hard work to come up with a
ethod to do this and be successful.
Out of curiosity: if you pass the written test and are on the list for the oral
xam and fail the oral part, do you have to start over with the written test
gain, or can you put your name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and
ork on getting a better delivery and retake that part only?
Thanks,
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com] On
ehalf Of Nancy Householder
ent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:14 AM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the
Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
5 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors Center and ends when you get back
here.? The point to this, is to see if you can explain the battle in the time
rame of an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also
ave to personalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG will pretend they are from two
ifferent states, so you have to include something about each of those states in
our tour.
he reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have
o show that you can personalize the tour
for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.
lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very
ell. For a two hour time frame, you need to generalize a lot.? The written test
s to show that you have the knowledge to be able to answer questions that
eople might ask.
Nancy Householder
future LBG
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
steemed GDG Member Contributes:
s I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides,
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.
Regards,
Jack
---- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
o: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
<<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are
not unique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system
and, IMHO, the guides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield
guide was O.T. Reilly, who was five at the time of the battle and
began giving tours when he was about fifteen. The current guide
service was started a little more than five years ago.? >>
As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
Jim Cameron
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arth
es.com? -to unsubscribe
http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com -to
nsubscribe http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
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------------------------------
Message: 121
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:08:01 -0500 (EST)
rom: AWard61890 at aol.com
o: gettysburg at arthes.com
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <10b04.1dbc7efe.3c5182e1 at aol.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
n a message dated 1/25/2012 10:55:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mills at jplcreative.com writes:
if you pass the written test and are on the list for the oral exam and
ail the oral part, do you have to start over with the written test again, or
an you put your name at the bottom of the list for the oral part and work
n getting a better delivery and retake that part only?
ou must go thru the entire process again, including passing the written
xam.
ndy Ward
------------------------------
Message: 122
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:08:12 +0000
rom: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: GDG- Neither this Capital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold
out against a large force
essage-ID:
<49A8DF1319C970479DC74310D86114E101E614 at JPLExchange.jpl.lcl>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In reading one of the articles posted earlier ( http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/gett/gettysburg_seminars/10/essay4.pdf
, on page 144, Halleck is quoted as to have said: "Neither this
apital nor Harpers Ferry could long hold out against a large force. They must
epend for their security very much upon the co-operation of your army"
It has been said in this forum that Washington was a nearly impenetrable
ortress and the ANV could never actually capture the city.
But this quote makes it seem that he feared very much for the safety of DC and I
ave to believe Lincoln would also feel this way, or Halleck wouldn't be able to
end such telegrams to the army.
Did they see a reality that is we don't see today? Were the forces that
efending Washington DC impressive on paper, but troops to which you couldn't
ely on when the fighting got heated? In 1863, how many troops defended the
apitol and were they mostly green troops with short enlistments? What makes
s today claim DC was unable to be taken when the military men of the time
hought the exact opposite?
I know there are a lot of questions, but I am trying to figure out the
ifferences in beliefs and if this is all with the hindsight of history to know
ee / ANV / Confederacy never had the capabilities the Union / US high command
elieved they were capable of.
Thanks,
-----------------------------
Message: 123
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:15:45 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <6B6A6B1A-8716-4DF7-B44F-66D834C3242F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jack,
I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you
an recite it from memory.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack,
>
> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
George, here is what Faulkner said.
Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart
ttacks.
And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
You overreact.
For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it,
here is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon
n 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid
nd ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out
nd Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand
robably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet
o give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't
ven begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not
o begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than
arnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin,
e all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment
oesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time
ith all this much to lose than all this much
to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington
tself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble,
he cast made two years ago.
- William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
>
> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
upport.
I am not sure what this is all about.
>
> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
I think this is the same thing.
> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over
he river is more than a raid.
Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural
arrier.
> I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in detail
s they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always sought, why
ouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he would need to be
o exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and Baltimore. What's west
f it? Breezewood?
Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans
here.
George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok,
his is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
THAT is patronizing.
Regards,
Jack
What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
" <gettysburg at arthes.com
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled on
he GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize Lee
o an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Message: 124
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:05 -0600
rom: Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <20120125081912.D88EEA8B at dm0201.mta.everyone.net>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite
it from memory.
ello,
Along with the Gettysburg address?
Take Care
Dennis
>>>>>>>>>
ou can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. Sure I'd like to
ape a baseball game without the express written consent of Major
eague Baseball, but that's just not the way it works. Hank Hill
------------------------------
Message: 125
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 08:24:35 -0800
rom: "Robert G Pielke" <rpielke at ca.rr.com>
o: "'GDG'" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <000301ccdb7d$d41fa3a0$7c5eeae0$@ca.rr.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I used the Faulkner quote as the epigraph of my novel A New Birth of
reedom: The Visitor -- wherein there was "still time for it not to happen."
Altered Dimensions Press -- for anyone interested]
"Northerners" know the quote as well....
Bob Pielke
-----Original Message-----
rom: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
n Behalf Of George Connell
ent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:16 AM
o: GDG
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
ack,
I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless
ou can recite it from memory.
Regards,
George
6?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell"
<georgeconnell at me.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Jack,
>
> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
George, here is what Faulkner said.
Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I
aid that. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing
bout heart attacks.
And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
You overreact.
For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants
t, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July
fternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the
uns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already
oosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and
is hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill
aiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it
asn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet
ut there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those
ircumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and
ilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come
oo far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a
ourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much
o lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the
olden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable
ictory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago.
- William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
>
> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
upport.
I am not sure what this is all about.
>
> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a
ong discussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
I think this is the same thing.
> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions
o cross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he
as planning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army
ver the river is more than a raid.
Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a
atural barrier.
> I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and
altimore. What's west of it? Breezewood?
Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans
here.
George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but
ou have to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you
re.But Ok, this is a discussion group. But you are not one I would
atronize.
The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
THAT is patronizing.
Regards,
Jack
What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
" <gettysburg at arthes.com
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are
ettled on the GDG.
>>
>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
ee to an unsubstainable level.
>>
>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
>> Great Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and
>> I know it.)
>>
>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_ar
>> thes.com -to unsubscribe
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-----------------------------
Message: 126
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:29:30 -0500
rom: George Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <DC3D11D3-491C-425D-A587-6978C303225F at mac.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Touch? !
Regards,
George
n Jan 25, 2012, at 11:19, Dennis Lawrence <denlaw at gojade.org> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless you can recite it from
emory.
Hello,
Along with the Gettysburg address?
Take Care
Dennis
>>>>>>>>>
You can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. Sure I'd like to tape a
aseball game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, but
hat's just not the way it works. Hank Hill ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
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------------------------------
Message: 127
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:16:55 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
essage-ID: <k3u0ihetk5hg3ngi8ohpphq7.1327511815458 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks nancy. I have learned more from this discussion about guides then I have
n 20 years of going to gettysburg.
egards,
ack
Nancy Householder <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack- No you don't get interviewed by the guides. You have to give an oral tour
f the battlefield with Clyde Bell, the
Park Ranger in charge of the guides, and an LBG. You have to cover the
attlefield, including Culps Hill, in 2 hours and
15 minutes. You have to get out at the? Peace Light, LRT, and the Angle at the
nd. The time frame starts at the Visitors
Center and ends when you get back there.? The point to this, is to see if you
an explain the battle in the time frame of
an average tour, and make it informative and entertaining.? You also have to
ersonalize the tour. Clyde and the LBG
will pretend they are from two different states, so you have to include
omething about each of those states in your tour.
The reason for this is that you will have visitors from all over, and you have
o show that you can personalize the tour
for them. It is one of the things that the guides are famous for.
A lot of people have the knowledge about the battle, but can't explain it very
ell. For a two hour time frame,
you need to generalize a lot.? The written test is to show that you have the
nowledge to be able to answer
questions that people might ask.
Nancy Householder
?future LBG
________________________________
From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
As I understand the Antietam guide thing, they take a test and passit. If they
ass it, they are interviewed by the NPS and spend time as interns before being
ully accredited. I understand the system at Gettysburg consists of a written
est and, even if you pass the test, you have to be interviewed by the guides,
ho can turn you down if they just d not like your style.
Regards,
Jack
----- Original Message ----- From: <cameron2 at optimum.net>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Battlefield Tour Guides
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> <<? The Gettysburg Licensed battlefield Guides are great, but they are not
nique. Antietam National Battlefield has a similar guide system and, IMHO, the
uides are outstanding. Antietam's first battlefield guide was O.T. Reilly, who
as five at the time of the battle and began giving tours when he was about
ifteen. The current guide service was started a little more than five years
go.? >>
>
> As I understand it, a National battlefield park is not required to have a
uide force (over and above the Ranger force, that is), but if it does have one
ffiliated with it, the guides must be licensed.
>
> Jim Cameron
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
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Message: 128
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:25:05 -0600
rom: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
essage-ID: <f2n5i28alrp8gmb25utjevr5.1327512305023 at email.android.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
And the pledge of allegiance.
till provides more service members than any other area.
egards,
ack
eorge Connell <georgeconnell at mac.com> wrote:
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack,
I know what Faulkner said. Down here you can't get out of fifth grade unless
ou can recite it from memory.
Regards,
George
26?11'56"N 81?48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:42 PM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Susquehanna River
>
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Jack,
>>
>> First of all, your Faulkner comment is patronizing.
> George, here is what Faulkner said.
> Was Faulkner being patronizing? I was serious as a heart attack when I said
hat. I have had six of those lest you think I am being patronizing about heart
ttacks.
> And I tempered it when I said I feli about Lincoln the same way.
> You overreact.
>
> For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it,
here is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon
n 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid
nd ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out
nd Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand
robably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet
o give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't
ven begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not
o begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than
arnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin,
e all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment
oesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time
ith all this much to lose than all this muc
h to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington
tself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble,
he cast made two years ago.
>
> - William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust
>
>
>>
>> Second, you offer assertions as truths, without a shred of evidence in
upport.
>
> I am not sure what this is all about.
> >
>> Third, you dismiss with exactly one short, unsubstantiated sentence a long
iscussion that includes nearly a dozen documented references.
>
> I think this is the same thing.
>
>
>> On the other hand, we know that Lee had given "be prepared" instructions to
ross the Susquehanna to two of his three corps. We don't know what he was
lanning for Longstreet's Corps, but a minimum of two-thirds of his army over
he river is more than a raid.
>
> Suicide is what that would have been. Never going to hapen anyway. Lee was
ever going to win that battle. Hell, he was trapped.
> Before you go any further, how was he going to defeat anybody in detail.
>
> Meade already knew where to fall back to, and if wver tour the Pipe Creek
ine, you will see the insanity of sending 2/3 of your army north of a natural
arrier.
>
> > I speculate here, but if Lee had been able to defeat the AoP corps in
etail as they came up in ones or two and to achieve that victory he always
ought, why wouldn't he want to be east of the Susquehanna? That's where he
ould need to be to exploit the victory by threatening Philadelphia and
altimore. What's west of it? Breezewood?
>
> Not Breezewood. there is only a toll gate and the worlds biggest Bob Evans
here.
>
> George, I gotta tell you, you can say unsubstantiated all you want, but you
ave to be able to show a plausible path forward to get where you are.But Ok,
his is a discussion group. But you are not one I would patronize.
> The only patronizing around here is between the brothers.
> BTW: Bob is recovering well. I am ahead 6 to 1.
> THAT is patronizing.
>
> Regards,
> Jack
>
> What direction does the Susquehanna run anyway?
>
> " <gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>> You are correct, we have discussed this before. But no issues are settled
n the GDG.
>>>
>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in many Lee admirers that grandiosize
ee to an unsubstainable level.
>>>
>>> Thus, the Lee as doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the Great
mancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I know it.)
>>>
>>> There was never any intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
arrisburg. But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it worked).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>> BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail lines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have cut the thread as the length was getting onerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 129
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:31:36 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327512696.69846.YahooMailNeo at web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
right you are you are George,? Its real sad when you show a person a map proving
our point and still said person doesn't give up.?
?Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: George Connell <georgeconnell at me.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
This may be the silliest conversation yet in this esteemed group, but I have to
ay Jack is a fighter. The words "I am wrong" will never pass his lips. We
hould all just give up now!
Regards,
George
On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:34 AM, John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> And it goes east
>
> Am I.? The only one who sees the irony in defending Bobby Lee by defining the
ourse of the Susquehanna?
> Regards,
> Jack
>
> Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> You can always find a bend in a river to prove what you say.? But you are
rong.? Here is a map showing the path of the river please show me a e-w flow
elow Harrisburg.
>>?
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susq.png
>>
>>? Namaste
>>?
>> Jeff Burk
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:10 AM
>>> Subject: GDG- Red River and ISusquehanna River
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> I was in Fargo a few years ago in a small building that had only one
onference room.
>>> So when one side had to present their case the other side had to go out
ack and sit at a picknik table.
>>> It wasn't bad. We are sitting in July on the banks of the Red River
obviously not the Texas/Oklahoma one) watching the folks swim on the Minnesota
ide. At that point, the Red River flows south to north as it is in the Hudson
ay watershed (as are the Tetons). It turned out to be a pleasant afternoon. The
oint is that the locals (as all of we locals are want when out of towners are
round) were more than happy to talk about the locale.
>>> They pointed out, (even the bad guys) that the Red River was the only south
o north river in the country.
>>> I pointed out that the Tennesse River flows north to south from Nashville
long Waldens Ridge to Chattanooga, where it flows east to west to below Memphis
ntil it flows NORTH to the Mississippi. So, I said, the Tennesee flows NORTH
lso.
>>> No, they said. A rivers course is determined by the direction of the flow
rom the headwaters to where it empties. The Tennesee river flows east to west.
>>> A couple of years later I ran into a geographer on another issue who told
e they were correct.
>>>
>>> So the Susquehanna flows east to west.
>>>
>>> Harrisburg may be east of the river, but it is on the north bank.
>>>
>>> And when I drive from Gettysburg to pick up a game at the Meadowlands, I go
orth, and somewhere in there I cross the river before I head east.
>>> This is not to patronize anyone.
>>> Now that we have cleared that up, Bill, what do you think Lee was going to
o with those two shot up corp up north, could and tired and all alone? Still
00 miles away from home?
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> jack
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Richardson"
general.jackson at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>>
>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the Sus, flows almost flat out N-S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Namaste
>>>>
>>>> Jeff Burk
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, now leave Jack alone he is as RIGHT about this as he is with
verything else. Surely ole Jack can't be wrong. :)
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>
>>>> William Richardson
>>>> Mount Gilead, North Carolina
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pro-Excuser: People who can?t understand how The Confederate States Of
merica, out-manned, and under supplied, could kick their butts for four long
ears. Who resort to all kinds of finger pointing and avenues of denial.
>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com?
to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
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Message: 130
ate: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:34:07 -0800 (PST)
rom: Jeff Burk <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
o: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
ubject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
essage-ID:
<1327512847.62848.YahooMailNeo at web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I live in Lancaster Pa.??
Thank you for your most kind offer concerning Lincoln, but I will be caving in
V that week end
?Namaste
eff Burk
________________________________
From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jeff Burk-
My friend-
Who are you?
Do you live in Penn?? I am in DC.
Why don't you come down for Lincoln's B-day and? chili?
We'll talk about about the Conowingo Dam.? It is 7AM? and I? woke up an
hour ago worrying about the the dam full? of silt would burst and poison the
Chesapeake.? Not the first time I? couldn't sleep worrying about the
Conowingo.
A? Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
Peter?
In a message dated 1/25/2012 12:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,?
jlb4tlb at yahoo.com writes:
Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
No Jack it does not.? It does take a SSE? course towards the bay when it
hits central Pa. , but never does it take? a east course.
Namaste
Jeff? Burk
>________________________________
> From: Jack? Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>To: GDG? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:44? PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>?
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>That means the Susquehanna flows south from? harrisburg to the gulf?
>Regards,
>
>Jack
>-----? Original Message -----
>From: "Jeff Burk"? <jlb4tlb at yahoo.com>
>To: "GDG"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:33? PM
>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
>Esteemed? GDG Member Contributes:
>Jack, you are holding the map sideways, the? Sus, flows almost flat out?
N-S
>
>
>Namaste
>
>Jeff? Burk
>
>
>>________________________________
>>? From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
>>To: GDG? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:51? PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>
>>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>I? ignored it because the Susquehanna generally runs east and? west.
>>
>>Maybe Hotchkiss held the map sideways while Lee? looked at? it.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Jack
>>-----? Original Message -----
>>From:? <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>To:? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:33? PM
>>Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>> Jack...
>>>
>>> I am? having some issues with the illustrious George in the? matter.
>>>
>>> He says that Lee was gonna put 2 corps? east of the Susq R and invest
>>>? Harrisburg.
>>>
>>> Can you please address him in this? matter?
>>>
>>> I really like the guy but I don't see? no investment of the city.
>>>
>>> Please talk to him? about this. I have such high regard for the man that
>>>? I
>>> think it is worth the? effort.
>>>
>>> ;-{)? ? !!!!!
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti? Unionist,
>>>? Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated? 1/24/2012 9:27:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>? jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG? Member Contributes:
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message? -----
>>> From: "Tom Barrett"? <tbarrett21 at cox.net>
>>> To: "'GDG'"? <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012? 4:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna? River
>>>
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member? Contributes:
>>>
>>> When we discussed this in some? detail a couple of months ago, I was
left
>>> with the impression? that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
>>>? possession
>>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps,? was using Harrisburg
>>> the
>>> way a matador uses a? red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
>>>? rushing
>>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it? piecemeal.
>>>
>>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was? a good idea.? Preferably cavalry.
>>>? But
>>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force? trapped on the East
>>> side
>>> of the Susquehanna? until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
>>>? between
>>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo,? Syracuse or
>>> wherever.)
>>>
>>> Of? course, things never got that far, but I think he would have?
"sacked"
>>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the? warehouses, and waited for
>>> the
>>> inevitable? reaction- but waited on the West side of the? river.
>>>
>>>? Regards,
>>>
>>> TB
>>>
>>>? Hello.
>>>
>>> You are correct, we have discussed this? before. But no issues are
settled
>>> on
>>> the? GDG.
>>>
>>> There is a certain innate Faulkner in? many Lee admirers that
grandiosize
>>> Lee
>>> to an? unsubstainable level.
>>>
>>> Thus, the Lee as? doomslayer. (I feel the same way about Lincoln the
Great
>>>? Emancipator, even though that is an unrealistic perception and I? know
>>> it.)
>>>
>>> There was never any? intent, nor was there ever any means, to occupy
>>> Harrisburg.? But, as you point out, it was a good idea (and it? worked).
>>>
>>>? Regards,
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>? BTW: Haupt thought that Lee's goal WAS to wreck the rail? lines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>? I have cut the thread as the length was getting? onerous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>?
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