GDG- Raid vs Occupation
Jack Lawrence
jlawrence at kc.rr.com
Tue Jan 24 20:49:04 CST 2012
First,
We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!!
Mary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our
captain is Italian.
I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but
not lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression
I picked up somewhere.
Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC?
----- Original Message -----
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in keeping view of
> Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge fortress and
> was
> almost impenetrable. Certainly no Conf army sent north would ever have
> the
> resources to penetrate it.
>
> It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and move.
> Kinda
> like a great big luxury liner and a buncha rocks.
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Hello.
>
> Once again, the chimera of a Lee in ascendence raises its head.
> Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade started to move. All he
> wanted
> to do was to pull Meade north to clear his rear.
> Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially stupid
> enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into anything but
> a
> raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale, involving a
> swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the
> enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal
> upon
> completion of the assigned mission.
>
> The mission here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
>
> Once Meade moved north, the mission was complete.
>
> Time to go home.
>
> Let's not make this more than it was.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>
> • During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up from
> Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick, he
> says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
> his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>
> • Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>
> • Lee to Ewell: “If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture it.”
> O.R.,
> 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> • ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
> 316.
>
> • June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
> Harrisburg.
>
> Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> • Lee’s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross
> the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
> between
> Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
>
> • "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
> chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
> had
> advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
> must
> be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
>
> • Lee: “To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
>
> but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.”
> Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> • Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>
> • In Lee’s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the passes,
> wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro, LGB,
> in
> a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
> do
> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
> of
> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> George....
>>
>> I love you Man....
>>
>> But I DO doubt it......
>>
>> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>>
>> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
> He
>> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>>
>> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
>> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
>> Jackson
>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
>> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
>> go
>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>>
>> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>>
>> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
>> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
> Harrisburg.
>> To me
>> it makes no sense.
>>
>> So I do doubt it.,
>>
>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Peter,
>>
>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
>> To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
> long
>> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
>> time he
>> had before the AoP would have been close.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> George
>
>> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>>> is a fascinating river.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dave Gillespie
>>> Parsippany, NJ
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>>
>>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
>> the
>>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>>
>>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>>>> huge
>>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>>
>>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
> low
>>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
>> number of
>>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
>> well
>>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>>
>>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
>>>> river
>> but
>>>> not infantry.
>>>>
>>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
>> putting
>>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
>> stories.
>>>>
>>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
>>>> Coast.
>> The
>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
>> Manhatten I
>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
>>>> rise.
>>>>
>>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
> a
>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
>>>> here!).
>> The
>>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
>>>> to
>> water level
>>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>>>> and
>>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>>
>>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>>
>>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>>
>>>> sticking to it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Jeff:
>>>>
>>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>>> Island across from the city?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>>> To: GDG
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
>>>> that
>> is
>>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
> river
>>>> flowed free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Namaste
>>>>
>>>> Jeff Burk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
> but
>>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>>
>>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
>>>>> side
>> of
>>>> the river.
>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
> state
>>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
> using
>> it
>>>> to
>>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
>> on
>>>> the
>>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
> city
>>>> from
>>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
>> the
>>>> ANV
>>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
>> save
>>>> it.
>>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>>> bridges
>>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>>>>> another
>>>> until
>>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
> rebuilt
>>>> later
>>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
>> easily
>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>>>>> covered
>>>> bridge
>>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
>>>>> and
>> the
>>>> flames
>>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Margaret
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
>> fire
>>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>>>>> destroying
>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
>> aggressive as
>>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
>> Antietam,
>>>>
>>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
>> being a
>>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
>> Warhorse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
> concerned
>>>> about
>>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
>> his.
>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
>>>>> thing
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
>> forces
>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
> North.
>>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>>> m
>>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>>> m
>>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.co
>>>> m -to unsubscribe
>>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>>>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>>
>>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>>
>>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>>
>>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>> -to unsubscribe
>> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
>
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
>
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com
> -to unsubscribe
> http://arthes.com/pipermail/gettysburg_arthes.com/ for Archives
>
More information about the Gettysburg
mailing list