GDG- Raid vs Occupation

Jack Lawrence jlawrence at kc.rr.com
Tue Jan 24 20:49:04 CST 2012


First,

We don't talk about cruise liners and rocks here. Please!!
Mary and I are doing a 29 day cruise and she is already asking if our 
captain is Italian.

I am not so sure DC was not really a hollow fortress with lots of guns but 
not lots of soldiers. Never really looked at it, but that was my impression 
I picked up somewhere.

Having said that, Lee could not even hold Harrisburg, how could he hold DC?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CWMHTours at aol.com>
To: <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Raid vs Occupation


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> You are correct, Sir, but don't mention the fact that in  keeping view of
> Lee's movements the fact that the Union capital was a huge  fortress and 
> was
> almost impenetrable.  Certainly no Conf army sent north  would ever have 
> the
> resources to penetrate it.
>
> It was the rock around which Lee and the ANV had to avoid and  move. 
> Kinda
> like a great big luxury liner and a buncha  rocks.
>
> A  Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jlawrence at kc.rr.com writes:
>
> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> Hello.
>
> Once again, the chimera of a Lee in  ascendence raises its head.
> Lee pulled these guys back as soon as Meade  started to move. All he 
> wanted
> to do was to pull Meade north to clear his  rear.
> Bobby Lee was a lot of things, but he wasn't stupid, especially  stupid
> enough to think that he could turn a raid on Harrisburg into  anything but
> a
> raid. Raid is defined as an operation, usually small scale,  involving a
> swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information,  confuse the
> enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned  withdrawal 
> upon
> completion of the assigned mission.
>
> The mission  here was certainly to confuse the enemy.
>
> Once Meade moved north, the  mission was complete.
>
> Time to go home.
>
> Let's not make this more  than it was.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at mac.com>
> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:09  PM
> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>
>
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg  notes:
>
> • During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up  from
> Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,  he
> says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for  on
> his
> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this  campaign.
>
> • Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may  be in
> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III,  pp.76-77.
>
> •  Lee to Ewell:  “If Harrisburg comes within your  means, capture it.”
> O.R.,
> 27, pt.3. p.914
>
> • ..."orders  were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2, p..
> 316.
>
> •  June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture 
> Harrisburg.
>
> Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>
> •  Lee’s orders to Hill on  June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
> cross
> the Susquehanna downstream  from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad 
> between
> Harrisburg and  Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p. 204
>
> • "Then 'Jeb'  started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg. He
> chose this  objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry 
> had
> advanced  to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
> must
> be  around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
>
> •  Lee: “To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as expected,
>
> but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is after.”
> Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>
> • Lee was going to Harrisburg.  So say the document and spontaneous
> utterances. He changed his mind  because of a lack of cavalry to block the
> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a  lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
> Battlefield Guide class,  6/27/6
>
> •  In Lee’s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown,  block the passes,
> wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible.  Tony Nicastro, LGB,
> in
> a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield  Guide class, 6/28/6
>
> Now that's ten citations from eight respected  sources; I have more but it
> gets repetitious.
>
> You can moan, you can  grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot
> do
> is doubt any  longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east 
> of
> the  Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with  him.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26ª11'56"N    81ª48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com  wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>  George....
>>
>> I love you Man....
>>
>> But I DO doubt  it......
>>
>> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>>
>>  Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact   artmy.
> He
>> takes that army on the wrong side of the   river.
>>
>> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in  the  CW.  Before Ant.
>> they lost a lot of men getting drunk  in the town, not to  mention 
>> Jackson
>> falling asleep during the  sermon in the Presbytyrian  church.
>> Occupying a city for ANY army  is fraught with  danger.  You don't just 
>> go
>> in and parade  around.  You risk losing  control of yo0ur army.
>>
>> Lee  was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a   city.
>>
>> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro  being  on tne
>> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were  in the  Cumberlaand?
>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument  for Lee going  into
> Harrisburg.
>> To me
>> it makes no  sense.
>>
>> So I do doubt it.,
>>
>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti Unionist,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> In a message dated  1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> georgeconnell at mac.com  writes:
>>
>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>>  Peter,
>>
>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee  intended to  capture Harrisburg. 
>> To
>> do that, he would have to move infantry   east of the Susquehanna. How
> long
>> they would stay is another question  and very  much depends on how much
>> time he
>> had before  the AoP would have been  close.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>  George
>
>> 26ª11'56"N    81ª48'19W"
>>
>> On Jan  24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie  wrote:
>>
>>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>>> The Susquehanna  River is extremely  low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>>> where it is also  very  low.  I have seen a good deal of the
>>> Susquehanna, both  in  South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>>> in South  Central New  York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower.   It
>>> is a fascinating  river.
>>>
>>>  Thanks,
>>> Dave Gillespie
>>> Parsippany,   NJ
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM,    <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good  issues.
>>>>
>>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin  and the largest water   source of
>> the
>>>> Ches  Bay.  Goes all the way up into southern  NY   state.
>>>>
>>>> Extremely wide.  Just north  of  the state border with MD  there is a
>>>>  huge
>>>> dam, the  Conowingo.  some 30-40 mi north of  that is 3 Mile   Island.
>>>>
>>>> Someone  correct me but if I recall correctly  rocks are  apparent in
> low
>>>> water on the R at   Wrightsville.
>>>>
>>>> I cannot imagine any sane  Conf  commander putting any  significant
>> number  of
>>>> infantry east of  the river during the GTYSBG   campaign.  You might as
>> well
>>>> wave goodbye  as  they marched off to  Johnson's   Island.
>>>>
>>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that  could  move fast east of  the 
>>>> river
>> but
>>>> not  infantry.
>>>>
>>>> In magazines like American Heritage  I have read stories of   loggers
>> putting
>>>> log  rafts a good mile long down the river from  NY.  Pretty   amazing
>> stories.
>>>>
>>>> The  Susq   R is an earthquake fault.  Interesting on  the East 
>>>> Coast.
>> The
>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault,  oddly   enough.  If I lived in
>> Manhatten  I
>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep  knowing that.  And  certainly in a high 
>>>> rise.
>>>>
>>>> If  you go  online you can see that the southern half of the C  Bay is
> a
>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years   ago.
>>>>
>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an  environmental  issue (No politix 
>>>> here!).
>>  The
>>>> overflow is full of  phosphates which are killing the  bay (I  need my
>>>> crabs!).  And more frighteningly the  dam has pretty much silted up 
>>>> to
>> water  level
>>>> with silt.  The silt is full of heavy metals,   which scares  experts,
>>>> and
>>>> costs me  sleep at night worrying  about it.
>>>>
>>>>  Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is  pretty   scary.
>>>>
>>>> That's my story, along with the   57mm's gun in Wrightsville and  I am
>>
>>>> sticking  to  it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A  Loyal  Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>  Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message  dated  1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>  amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed   GDG  Member Contributes:
>>>>  Jeff:
>>>>
>>>> Out of  curiosity:  is the dam  in  which you refer, the one just below
>> City
>>>>  Island across from the city?
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>> From:  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>>  [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>>> On Behalf  Of  Jeff  Burk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42  PM
>>>> To:  GDG
>>>> Subject:  Re: GDG-  Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Your  point  about the river being  shallow is true today.  However 
>>>> that
>> is
>>>> because  the river has been dammed upstream.  during the  war  the
> river
>>>> flowed  free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Namaste
>>>>
>>>> Jeff   Burk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  ________________________________
>>>>> From:    "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>>  To:   gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday,  January 24, 2012  1:14  PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>> The river at that  point is frequently shallow  in  summer  droughts
> but
>>>>> very wide and quite an  obstacle. Very   rocky.
>>>>>
>>>>> A smart and  careful  commander would not want to put more  than    an
>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been  sacrificed  on  the east 
>>>>> side
>> of
>>>> the   river.
>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant  military goal  other than being a
> state
>>>>> capital and RR   center.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting  on the west side of the   river   there.
>>>>>
>>>>> A  Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>>  Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message  dated 1/24/2012  2:22:49  A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net    writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG  Member  Contributes:
>>>>> Tom-The  militia destroyed  it in order to  keep the  Confederates
> using
>>  it
>>>> to
>>>>> cross over  the the eastern  shore of the Susquehanna.  Harrisburg  is
>> on
>>>>  the
>>>>> east and this would have enabled the   Confederates to   attack the
> city
>>>>  from
>>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the   bridge's  destruction,
>> the
>>>>  ANV
>>>>> generals on the scene saw the   advantages  to saving it and  tried to
>> save
>>>>  it.
>>>>> The Susquehanna is  not one of the wildest rivers  in  the  world but
>>>> bridges
>>>>>  were  needed to  cross it and with that bridge out there   wasn't
>>>>> another
>>>> until
>>>>>  Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it  could  be
> rebuilt
>>>> later
>>>>> but, in the  days  before dynamite, that sort of  precision  wasn't
>>  easily
>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville  bridge  was a  wood &  stone
>>>>>  covered
>>>> bridge
>>>>> believed to  be  the  longest such bridge in the world at  the time 
>>>>> and
>>  the
>>>> flames
>>>>> that  destroyed the wood,  leaving  only the granite   supports.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Margaret
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original   Message  -----
>>>>> From: "Tom"    <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>>> To: "GDG"     <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23,  2012  10:38:11  PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Inevitable  defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed   GDG Member   Contributes:
>>>>>>>>  And
>>>>> in fact, if  you  think about it, the  damn  thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>> granite   blocks. Now just how are you going to   knock the darn thing
>>  over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole lot  of  valuable time and  trouble?  <<< It was destroyed,  by
>> fire
>>>>> (not the granite supports   of  course), by  Union militia.
>>>>> Regards, Tom  B.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From:   CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012   9:28  PM
>>>>> To:  gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>> Subject: Re:  GDG-   Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG   Member  Contributes:
>>>>>  Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully  Sir,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think  we   disagree,  sir.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is it   written that Lee disagreed  with Jackson about
>>>>>  destroying
>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I  think Lee  was  just about as
>> aggressive as
>>>>> Jackson was  in   bringing the war to your opponent. for  example,
>>  Antietam,
>>>>
>>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>>  & Monocacy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not   dispersing  you personally. I just see  Lee & Jackson as
>>  being a
>>>>> balanced    combination.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the time of 2nd Man  Lee   could see the Hammer and the   Anvil.
>>>>>
>>>>> The  Hammer was   Jackson.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Anvil was the   wonderful  James Peter  Longstreet, the Old
>>  Warhorse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, just curious,  I   don't  recall reference to Lee being
> concerned
>>>> about
>>>>> destroying  the RR  bridge  over the Susq. R.  being a big concern of
>>  his.
>>>> And
>>>>> in fact, if you  think   about it, the damn thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>>  granite blocks. Now just how  are you going to knock  the darn 
>>>>> thing
>> over
>>>>> without a
>>>>> whole  lot  of  valuable time and   trouble?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where  just that.  Raids.  Move overwhelming
>>  forces
>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in     overwhelming force.
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of  going  north for Lee was  to  de-stabilizing the
> North.
>>>>> Everything else was a  subset.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal   Neo-Anti  Unionist,
>>>>>  Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
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>>>>  m
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