GDG- ISusquehanna River
George Connell
georgeconnell at mac.com
Tue Jan 24 18:27:41 CST 2012
Not to worry. I get a lot wrong and have much more to learn. This is the place for it.
Regards,
George
26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 7:13 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I wish I didn't hold you in such high respect and regard George. ;-{)
>
> I wudda told Lee don't put the whole army into Hrsbg.
>
> I am starting to get afraid of you, sir. ;-{)
>
> I am in the GDG to learn, so thank you.
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 5:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Timing is obviously important, but the point I want to make is that there
> is a huge body of evidence (see my earlier post) that Lee SAID he hoped to
> cross the Susquehanna with at least two corps--Ewell's and Hill's. I think
> we should take that at face value.
>
> As the most audacious man on either side I can see Lee fighting the big
> one east of the Susquehanna. He would still have had all his ammunition and
> was living off the land just fine. Nothing like capturing the capital of
> Pennsylvania and destroying the east-west railroad to check the political box
> es and to make the AoP come after him fast and recklessly.
>
> But the 'how' of all this is not my point. Lee said he wanted to cross
> that river with at least most of his army and capture Harrisburg. That's a
> fact!
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Tom Barrett wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>
>> When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
>> with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in
> possession
>> of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg
> the
>> way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP
> rushing
>> wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
>>
>> Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry.
> But
>> it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East
> side
>> of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail
> between
>> its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or
> wherever.)
>>
>> Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
>> Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for
> the
>> inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TB
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>> On Behalf Of George Connell
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
>> To: GDG
>> Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
>>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> Peter,
>>
>> Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
>>
>> • During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
>> from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at
> Frederick,
>> he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
>> Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
>> Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on
> his
>> thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
>>
>> • Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
>> Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
>>
>> • Lee to Ewell: “If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
>> it.” O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
>>
>> • ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
>> p.. 316.
>>
>> • June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
>> Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
>>
>> • Lee’s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
>> cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
>> between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P.
> Hill, p.
>> 204
>>
>> • "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
>> He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
>> had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York,
> they
>> must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p.
> 137.
>>
>> • Lee: “To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
>> expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
>> after.” Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
>>
>> • Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
>> utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
>> passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
>> Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
>>
>> • In Lee’s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
>> passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony
> Nicastro,
>> LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class,
> 6/28/6
>>
>> Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
>> gets repetitious.
>>
>> You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you
> cannot do
>> is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east
> of
>> the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> George
>> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> George....
>>>
>>> I love you Man....
>>>
>>> But I DO doubt it......
>>>
>>> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>>>
>>> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy.
> He
>>
>>> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>>>
>>> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before
> Ant.
>>> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention
> Jackson
>>> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
>>> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just
> go
>>> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>>>
>>> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>>>
>>> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
>>> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
>
>>> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into
> Harrisburg.
>> To me
>>> it makes no sense.
>>>
>>> So I do doubt it.,
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg.
> To
>>> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How
> long
>>
>>> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
>> time he
>>> had before the AoP would have been close.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> George
>>> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>>>
>>> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>>>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>>>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>>>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>>>> is a fascinating river.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dave Gillespie
>>>> Parsippany, NJ
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source
> of
>>> the
>>>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>>>
>>>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
>> huge
>>>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in
> low
>>>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
>>> number of
>>>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might
> as
>>> well
>>>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the
> river
>>> but
>>>>> not infantry.
>>>>>
>>>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
>>> putting
>>>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
>>> stories.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East
> Coast.
>>> The
>>>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
>>> Manhatten I
>>>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high
> rise.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is
> a
>>>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix
> here!).
>>
>>> The
>>>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up
> to
>>> water level
>>>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
>> and
>>>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>>>
>>>>> sticking to it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Jeff:
>>>>>
>>>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just
> below
>>> City
>>>>> Island across from the city?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
>>> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>>>> To: GDG
>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However
> that
>>> is
>>>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the
> river
>>>>> flowed free.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Namaste
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Burk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts
> but
>>>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east
> side
>>> of
>>>>> the river.
>>>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a
> state
>>>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates
> using
>>
>>> it
>>>>> to
>>>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg
> is
>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the
> city
>>>>> from
>>>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
>>> the
>>>>> ANV
>>>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried
> to
>>> save
>>>>> it.
>>>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>>>> bridges
>>>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
>> another
>>>>> until
>>>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be
> rebuilt
>>>>> later
>>>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
>>> easily
>>>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
>> covered
>>>>> bridge
>>>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time
> and
>>
>>> the
>>>>> flames
>>>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margaret
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
> thing
>>> over
>>>>>> without a
>>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
>
>>> fire
>>>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
>> destroying
>>>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
>>> aggressive as
>>>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
>>> Antietam,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
>>> being a
>>>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
>>> Warhorse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being
> concerned
>>>>> about
>>>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
>
>>> his.
>>>>> And
>>>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of
> big
>>>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn
> thing
>>> over
>>>>>> without a
>>>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
>>> forces
>>>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the
> North.
>>>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
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