GDG- ISusquehanna River
Tom Barrett
tbarrett21 at cox.net
Tue Jan 24 16:26:17 CST 2012
When we discussed this in some detail a couple of months ago, I was left
with the impression that most everybody agreed that Lee, being in possession
of some common sense, and being able to read maps, was using Harrisburg the
way a matador uses a red cape. His real intent was to have the AOP rushing
wildly after him (like a bull) and to defeat it piecemeal.
Sending a force into Harrisburg was a good idea. Preferably cavalry. But
it made no sense for him to get a slow moving force trapped on the East side
of the Susquehanna until AFTER he'd sent the AOP home with its tail between
its legs. (Then he could move on to Boston, Buffalo, Syracuse or wherever.)
Of course, things never got that far, but I think he would have "sacked"
Harrisburg, wrecked the railroad, burned the warehouses, and waited for the
inevitable reaction- but waited on the West side of the river.
Regards,
TB
-----Original Message-----
From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
On Behalf Of George Connell
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:10 PM
To: GDG
Subject: Re: GDG- ISusquehanna River
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Peter,
Some relevant items from my Gettysburg notes:
• During the Antietam Campaign when General John Walker, just up
from Richmond with his two-brigade division, reported to Lee at Frederick,
he says Lee told him that the Army was going to Harrisburg, destroy the
Pennsylvania railroad bridge, and then go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or
Washington. (B&L, vol. 3). See also R. E. Lee, Vol II, pp. 360-1 for on his
thoughts on operating east of the Susquehanna during this campaign.
• Dorsey Pender, June 28, 1863, June 28, 1863: "I hope we may be in
Harrisburg in three days..." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, pp.76-77.
• Lee to Ewell: “If Harrisburg comes within your means, capture
it.” O.R., 27, pt.3. p.914
• ..."orders were...issued to move upon Harrisburg. O.R., 27, pt. 2,
p.. 316.
• June 28: Ewell ordered Rhodes to cross the river and capture
Harrisburg. Rich Kohr, Gettysburg LBG, 8/6/6
• Lee’s orders to Hill on June 28 were to follow in trace of Early,
cross the Susquehanna downstream from Harrisburg, and seize the railroad
between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. James Robertson, General A. P. Hill, p.
204
• "Then 'Jeb' started the entire column for Carlisle, vis Dillsburg.
He chose this objective because he reasoned that if the SOuthern infantry
had advanced to the Susquehanna and were not in the vicinity of York, they
must be around Carlisle or Harrisburg." Lee's Lieutenants, Vol III, p. 137.
• Lee: “To-morrow, gentlemen, we will not move to Harrisburg as
expected, but will go over to Gettysburg and see what General Meade is
after.” Gettysburg Nobody Knows, pp 110-111.
• Lee was going to Harrisburg. So say the document and spontaneous
utterances. He changed his mind because of a lack of cavalry to block the
passes. Tony Nicastro, LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed
Battlefield Guide class, 6/27/6
• In Lee’s perfect world: he would dig in at Cashtown, block the
passes, wait for Stuart, and head for Harrisburg if possible. Tony Nicastro,
LGB, in a lecture to the Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide class, 6/28/6
Now that's ten citations from eight respected sources; I have more but it
gets repetitious.
You can moan, you can grumble, and you can speculate, but what you cannot do
is doubt any longer. Lee was going to Harrisburg (and other points east of
the Susquehanna)--and he was taking a lot of infantry with him.
Regards,
George
26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
On Jan 24, 2012, at 4:01 PM, CWMHTours at aol.com wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> George....
>
> I love you Man....
>
> But I DO doubt it......
>
> Think of the consequences for Lee.
>
> Before capturing a big city like Hrsbg he would have an intact artmy. He
> takes that army on the wrong side of the river.
>
> Look at the Confederate occupation of Frederick in the CW. Before Ant.
> they lost a lot of men getting drunk in the town, not to mention Jackson
> falling asleep during the sermon in the Presbytyrian church.
> Occupying a city for ANY army is fraught with danger. You don't just go
> in and parade around. You risk losing control of yo0ur army.
>
> Lee was in the N only to threaten the N, not to capture a city.
>
> And, Sir, please tell me what benefit Lee would gain fro being on tne
> wrong side of the Sus R when his supply lines were in the Cumberlaand?
> Politely, I would like to hear an argument for Lee going into Harrisburg.
To me
> it makes no sense.
>
> So I do doubt it.,
>
> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
> Peter
>
>
> In a message dated 1/24/2012 3:34:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> georgeconnell at mac.com writes:
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Peter,
>
> There is absolutely no doubt that Lee intended to capture Harrisburg. To
> do that, he would have to move infantry east of the Susquehanna. How long
> they would stay is another question and very much depends on how much
time he
> had before the AoP would have been close.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
> 26ª11'56"N 81ª48'19W"
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Dave Gillespie wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> The Susquehanna River is extremely low once it gets past Harrisburg,
>> where it is also very low. I have seen a good deal of the
>> Susquehanna, both in South Central PA (I grew up in Carlisle, PA) and
>> in South Central New York, where it is much deeper, yet narrower. It
>> is a fascinating river.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave Gillespie
>> Parsippany, NJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28 PM, <CWMHTours at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff and Andy bring up some good issues.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an amazing river basin and the largest water source of
> the
>>> Ches Bay. Goes all the way up into southern NY state.
>>>
>>> Extremely wide. Just north of the state border with MD there is a
huge
>>> dam, the Conowingo. some 30-40 mi north of that is 3 Mile Island.
>>>
>>> Someone correct me but if I recall correctly rocks are apparent in low
>>> water on the R at Wrightsville.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine any sane Conf commander putting any significant
> number of
>>> infantry east of the river during the GTYSBG campaign. You might as
> well
>>> wave goodbye as they marched off to Johnson's Island.
>>>
>>> If I wuz Ewell I'd put cavalry that could move fast east of the river
> but
>>> not infantry.
>>>
>>> In magazines like American Heritage I have read stories of loggers
> putting
>>> log rafts a good mile long down the river from NY. Pretty amazing
> stories.
>>>
>>> The Susq R is an earthquake fault. Interesting on the East Coast.
> The
>>> Hudson also is an earthquake fault, oddly enough. If I lived in
> Manhatten I
>>> wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that. And certainly in a high rise.
>>>
>>> If you go online you can see that the southern half of the C Bay is a
>>> crater from a meteor striking it millions of years ago.
>>>
>>> The Conowingo Dam basin is an environmental issue (No politix here!).
> The
>>> overflow is full of phosphates which are killing the bay (I need my
>>> crabs!). And more frighteningly the dam has pretty much silted up to
> water level
>>> with silt. The silt is full of heavy metals, which scares experts,
and
>>> costs me sleep at night worrying about it.
>>>
>>> Cadmium, lead, mercury, etc. It is pretty scary.
>>>
>>> That's my story, along with the 57mm's gun in Wrightsville and I am
>
>>> sticking to it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 1:50:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>> amills at jplcreative.com writes:
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Jeff:
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity: is the dam in which you refer, the one just below
> City
>>> Island across from the city?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
> [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Burk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:42 PM
>>> To: GDG
>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Your point about the river being shallow is true today. However that
> is
>>> because the river has been dammed upstream. during the war the river
>>> flowed free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Namaste
>>>
>>> Jeff Burk
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "CWMHTours at aol.com" <CWMHTours at aol.com>
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> The river at that point is frequently shallow in summer droughts but
>>>> very wide and quite an obstacle. Very rocky.
>>>>
>>>> A smart and careful commander would not want to put more than an
>>>> expeditionary force that could have been sacrificed on the east side
> of
>>> the river.
>>>> Harrisburg was no significant military goal other than being a state
>>>> capital and RR center.
>>>>
>>>> Thre are 2 57mm guns sitting on the west side of the river there.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/24/2012 2:22:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>> mdblough1 at comcast.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Tom-The militia destroyed it in order to keep the Confederates using
> it
>>> to
>>>> cross over the the eastern shore of the Susquehanna. Harrisburg is
> on
>>> the
>>>> east and this would have enabled the Confederates to attack the city
>>> from
>>>> both sides. While Lee initially ordered the bridge's destruction,
> the
>>> ANV
>>>> generals on the scene saw the advantages to saving it and tried to
> save
>>> it.
>>>> The Susquehanna is not one of the wildest rivers in the world but
>>> bridges
>>>> were needed to cross it and with that bridge out there wasn't
another
>>> until
>>>> Harrisburg. The hope was to destroy sections so it could be rebuilt
>>> later
>>>> but, in the days before dynamite, that sort of precision wasn't
> easily
>>>> obtained. The Columbia-Wrightsville bridge was a wood & stone
covered
>>> bridge
>>>> believed to be the longest such bridge in the world at the time and
> the
>>> flames
>>>> that destroyed the wood, leaving only the granite supports.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Margaret
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tom" <bunco973 at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:38:11 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble? <<< It was destroyed, by
> fire
>>>> (not the granite supports of course), by Union militia.
>>>> Regards, Tom B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CWMHTours at aol.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:28 PM
>>>> To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Inevitable defeat
>>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully Sir,
>>>>
>>>> I think we disagree, sir.
>>>>
>>>> Where is it written that Lee disagreed with Jackson about
destroying
>>>> infrastructure in the North? I think Lee was just about as
> aggressive as
>>>> Jackson was in bringing the war to your opponent. for example,
> Antietam,
>>>
>>>> Gtysbg,
>>>> & Monocacy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not dispersing you personally. I just see Lee & Jackson as
> being a
>>>> balanced combination.
>>>>
>>>> By the time of 2nd Man Lee could see the Hammer and the Anvil.
>>>>
>>>> The Hammer was Jackson.
>>>>
>>>> The Anvil was the wonderful James Peter Longstreet, the Old
> Warhorse.
>>>>
>>>> Also, just curious, I don't recall reference to Lee being concerned
>>> about
>>>> destroying the RR bridge over the Susq. R. being a big concern of
> his.
>>> And
>>>> in fact, if you think about it, the damn thing IS still made of big
>>>> granite blocks. Now just how are you going to knock the darn thing
> over
>>>> without a
>>>> whole lot of valuable time and trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Lee's 3 raids up north where just that. Raids. Move overwhelming
> forces
>>>> up north and attack piecemeal in overwhelming force.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of going north for Lee was to de-stabilizing the North.
>>>> Everything else was a subset.
>>>>
>>>> A Loyal Neo-Anti Unionist,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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