GDG- Camp Colt

CWMHTours at aol.com CWMHTours at aol.com
Wed Jan 4 11:40:08 CST 2012


Technically you should use the NPS-maintained picnic  grounds.  
 
It would be interesting to know if you are allowed to eat  anything at all 
on the Park when you are not on the picnic  areas. 
 
Your  Most Obedient Servant,
Peter  

 
In a message dated 1/4/2012 12:37:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
Esteemed Members

I have visited G'burg  often.  Is it appropriate or legal to picnic on the
grounds?  I  have seen a few people in Spangler Springs and of course in the
various  parking lots.  Thanks.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Andy Mills  <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:

> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> I just recently got the Devil's Den book by Smith and  Alderman.  Once I
> finish the latest Shaara book, this is the next  book to read.  I wonder 
if
> there is anything in the book about  this?
>
> Anyway:  thanks for the information.  Greatly  appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com  
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of Jack  Lawrence
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> To:  GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
>
> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> There was at least one hotel down there and, on the  weekends, ladies 
would
> ride down from factories in, iirc, York, to  earn extra cash at the hotel.
> Don't know how organized it was.  Gambling went on there too. As I was
> told, this area was really  popular, a destination spot.
>
> All that remains of this today  that I am aware of is a mechanical pump
> that is set in a box below  ground level. It is hard to find and a waste 
of
> time without a metal  detector, and I am not the one who wants to seen 
down
> there with one  (this is in the slaughter pen area.
>
> I understand that this was  a popular picnic area at one time, along with
> Spangler  Spring.
>
> Got this from a GDG tour a few yeras  ago.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Mills"  <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:27  AM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
>
>
> > Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
> > Jack:
> >
> > Thanks  for the information.  As with Nancy's email, I must apologize 
for
>  > the lateness in a reply due to the holidays.
> >
> >  But I have to ask:  are you being serious about brothels in Devil Den, 
 or
> > was that more "tongue-in-cheek?"
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >  From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
>  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Jack Lawrence
>  > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:29 PM
> > To: GDG
> >  Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
> > I am not sure any of it is the same, except for  static features such as
> > plum Run, et al.
> > Not only is  there a substantial soil erosion rate at play here, but 
over
> a
>  > century and a half, there would be a soil replinishment rate in paly  
for
> > land that has lain fallow.
> > Additionally, the man  made chnages are not always obvious. Dynamite was
> > used down past  Devils Den to put in the electric rr (trolley).
> >
> >  There used to be towers on BRT and at The Angle. There were, at one  
time,
> > hotels, saloons, casinos and, of course, and weekend  brothels down in 
the
> > Slaughter Pen.
> > There are small  rock quarries used for monuments all over the park.
> (There
>  > is one on LRT).
> >
> > Frassanito has noted specific  rocks, etc, that you can see today, but 
the
> > terrain itself has  changed.
> >
> > A guide once stood on the field in front  of  group I was with, and
> pointed
> > out a shallow  depresssion that they (the guides) were certain marked 
the
> >  disposition of a certain unit during the battle, because a report
> >  mentioned a depression in the area.
> >
> > He was standing  directly across the road from the Pennsylvania Monument
> at
>  > the time, which has been formed and reformed countless times.
>  >
> > Stick with the rocks, the buildings, the rest just isn't  there any 
more.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >  Jack
> >
> > ....but I rember yesterday....
>  >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:  "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
> > To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011  2:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
>  >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Nancy:
>  >
> > Thanks for the information.  That makes sense, but for  the most part,
> > would
> > it be more authentic than  places like the Union Center where entire 
hills
> > were  flattened?  Or were there some hills along the fighting on Culp's
>  > Hill
> > that were removed to make room for the roads (as I  believe the Angle 
was
> > actually 10' higher but flattened for the  road, not to mention all the
> > army
> > activity in that  area).
> >
> > I know nothing we see will give us the view  of the battlefield as it
> > existed
> > in 1863, I guess I  am wondering how different parts of the battlefield
> > that
>  > we see today fared in maintaining its original character.
>  >
> > I would think ECB, Devil's Den and Culp's Hill are the most  pristine as
> > composed to places like LRT, The Angle and Pickett's  Fields (for lack 
of
> a
> > better description).
>  >
> > I hope that makes sense.
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >  From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
>  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Nancy  Householder
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:46 PM
> >  To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> >  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Culps Hill has changed, too.  They put monuments on the hill, first, 
then
> > after the War  Department took over the park in 1895, they put roads in 
so
> >  people could have access to the lines of battle. They built roads on
>  Culps
> > hill, next to the monuments so people could see them.  Later, in the
> 1930's
> > they had to redo the roads on Culps  Hill so cars could go up the roads.
> > The
> >
> >  first roads were much steeper and very windy, and made for horses and
>  > carriages. They also moved some monuments when they re-did the roads.  
I
> > learned this from LBG Sue Boardman in her class on Culps  Hill.
> >
> > Nancy Householder
> >
>  >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> > To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011  9:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> >  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Out of curiosity: is there any  landscape we see today that would be the
> > same
> > as  1863? The First Day we have airports and railroads, etc. The second
>  day
> > we have trolley lines, railroads, military establishments,  scalping of
> > crests, not to mention roads such as the ones that  used to be around 
the
> > angle (this is one I don't fault all that  much as you need roads for
> > accessibility as you can't expect  people to be able to walk entire
> > battlefields as well as visitor  centers as the wisdom of when they were
> > built are drastically  different than approaches and views today) and 
the
> > third day we  have the same issues as the second day. Perhaps the 
cavalry
> >  battlefields of the Gettysburg area are pretty close, but I really  
don't
> > know.
> >
> > The only two that seems to  not have been touched is Culp's Hill (I know
> > building the road  caused disruption but view that as a necessary evil),
> > but
>  > we don't get the same vantage points around Culp's Hill as the  
soldiers
> > due
> > to all the overgrowth in that part of  the battlefield and Devil's Den
> > (what
> > could actually  be built in that rocky outcropping) .
> >
> > It seems with  the tree clearing, at best we are getting "line of 
sights"
> >  but
> > not authentic views of how the soldiers saw the battlefield.  Would this
> be
> > a
> > fair assessment?
>  >
> > It doesn't seem like at Antietam / Shiloh where I believe  those
> > battlefields
> > are about the same as during the  battle (given, I know building roads 
and
> > Visitor Centers cause  disruption), but for the most part, those
> > battlefields
>  > have changed very little over time (with the exception of said  
projects
> to
> > allow visitation to the battlefields and the  usual wear of time and
> > erosion).
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >  From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
>  gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Nancy  Householder
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:45 AM
> >  To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> >  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I was told by LBG Sue Boardman,  that the reason the Penn. Monument was
> > built
> > in that  location is because there was a railroad stop right there.
>  >
> > Railroad tracks went across the field in front of the Union  monuments 
on
> > Cemetery Ridge, in front of the High Water Mark, and  ran way down
> >
> > towards LRT. There was a stop by the  end of Hancock ave, and they could
> > bring in all the supplies to  build the PA Monument by railroad, and
> >
> > could unload  them right there, near where they will build it.
> >
> >  Nancy Householder
> >
> >
> >
> >  ________________________________
> > From: John Lawrence  <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> > To: GDG  <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011  2:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> >  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Hello.
> > The  Pennsylvania monument is built on the site of Father Corby's
> >  benediction
> > (the statue was placed at it's present site to sit on  the curve where 
the
> > electric railroad emerged).
> >  There was a 40 foot knoll where the monument is today.
> > The knoll,  I was told by a LBG-one of the better ones, was higher than
>  the
> > head on Lincoln's statue.
> > A few years ago, we  ran into a sculptor oat the Dobbins blobs bar who 
had
> > done the  statue of the last Pennsylvania general to be erected on
>  Cemetery
> > Ridge. (I learned lot about sculpting that  evening).
> > When they excavated for he foundation for the statue,  there was a NPS 
rep
> > there to recover artifacts.
> > As  expected, they found none. When the road on Cemetery Ridge was put 
in,
>  > they scraped it clean and dumped it in local fields.
> > A 15  foot deep ravine once separated, Vincent's Spur from the main body
>  of
> > LRT.
> > The rocky ledges of Oates report were  obliterated when Chamberlain 
Avenue
> > ( a; carriage route now all  but gone itself) was put in.
> > Dynamite was used to put in the  electric railroad.
> > Nothing is the same.
> >  Regards,
> > Jack
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  >
> >
> > Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>  wrote:
> >
> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>  >>I came across this image on the Gettysburg Daily blog....
>  >>
>  >>http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/EisenhowerTank121511/EisenhowerTank12
>  >>151102.jpg
> >>
> >>In looking at it, it looks  as though the copse of trees is just out of
> >>sight to the left  of the image.
> >>
> >>But looking at this image, it  seems most of the hills we see today from
> >>the
>  >>same perspective were flattened with little or no regard for the state 
 of
> >>the battlefield.
> >>
> >>Is this  true? And if so, it would seem the hills we see today around 
the
>  >>High Water Mark are reproductions of ones that might have been there,  
not
> >>to mention the stone wall and the "original stone wall  covered with 
sod"
> >>around the US Regulars Monument.
>  >>
> >>It seems this training ground significantly altered  the landscape.
> >>
> >>How much impact did Camp Colt  have on the ground? Were the tanks then
> >>running (even if it  was only three by the summer) on the ground between
> >>West  Confederate Avenue and the Emmitsburg road through the area 
covered
>  >>by
> >>PPG Assault, or did they train more in the Codori -  Trostle Thicket 
area?
> >>
> >>Out of curiosity: did  any of the men driving the tanks / flatbed trucks
> >>lose control  and destroy any monuments (even the regimental flank 
markers
>  >>that are positioned low to the ground)?
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