GDG- Camp Colt
CWMHTours at aol.com
CWMHTours at aol.com
Wed Jan 4 11:40:08 CST 2012
Technically you should use the NPS-maintained picnic grounds.
It would be interesting to know if you are allowed to eat anything at all
on the Park when you are not on the picnic areas.
Your Most Obedient Servant,
Peter
In a message dated 1/4/2012 12:37:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jgrim1941 at gmail.com writes:
Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Esteemed Members
I have visited G'burg often. Is it appropriate or legal to picnic on the
grounds? I have seen a few people in Spangler Springs and of course in the
various parking lots. Thanks.
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> I just recently got the Devil's Den book by Smith and Alderman. Once I
> finish the latest Shaara book, this is the next book to read. I wonder
if
> there is anything in the book about this?
>
> Anyway: thanks for the information. Greatly appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com
[mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> On Behalf Of Jack Lawrence
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> To: GDG
> Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
>
> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> There was at least one hotel down there and, on the weekends, ladies
would
> ride down from factories in, iirc, York, to earn extra cash at the hotel.
> Don't know how organized it was. Gambling went on there too. As I was
> told, this area was really popular, a destination spot.
>
> All that remains of this today that I am aware of is a mechanical pump
> that is set in a box below ground level. It is hard to find and a waste
of
> time without a metal detector, and I am not the one who wants to seen
down
> there with one (this is in the slaughter pen area.
>
> I understand that this was a popular picnic area at one time, along with
> Spangler Spring.
>
> Got this from a GDG tour a few yeras ago.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
>
>
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Jack:
> >
> > Thanks for the information. As with Nancy's email, I must apologize
for
> > the lateness in a reply due to the holidays.
> >
> > But I have to ask: are you being serious about brothels in Devil Den,
or
> > was that more "tongue-in-cheek?"
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
> gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Jack Lawrence
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:29 PM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I am not sure any of it is the same, except for static features such as
> > plum Run, et al.
> > Not only is there a substantial soil erosion rate at play here, but
over
> a
> > century and a half, there would be a soil replinishment rate in paly
for
> > land that has lain fallow.
> > Additionally, the man made chnages are not always obvious. Dynamite was
> > used down past Devils Den to put in the electric rr (trolley).
> >
> > There used to be towers on BRT and at The Angle. There were, at one
time,
> > hotels, saloons, casinos and, of course, and weekend brothels down in
the
> > Slaughter Pen.
> > There are small rock quarries used for monuments all over the park.
> (There
> > is one on LRT).
> >
> > Frassanito has noted specific rocks, etc, that you can see today, but
the
> > terrain itself has changed.
> >
> > A guide once stood on the field in front of group I was with, and
> pointed
> > out a shallow depresssion that they (the guides) were certain marked
the
> > disposition of a certain unit during the battle, because a report
> > mentioned a depression in the area.
> >
> > He was standing directly across the road from the Pennsylvania Monument
> at
> > the time, which has been formed and reformed countless times.
> >
> > Stick with the rocks, the buildings, the rest just isn't there any
more.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jack
> >
> > ....but I rember yesterday....
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andy Mills" <amills at jplcreative.com>
> > To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Nancy:
> >
> > Thanks for the information. That makes sense, but for the most part,
> > would
> > it be more authentic than places like the Union Center where entire
hills
> > were flattened? Or were there some hills along the fighting on Culp's
> > Hill
> > that were removed to make room for the roads (as I believe the Angle
was
> > actually 10' higher but flattened for the road, not to mention all the
> > army
> > activity in that area).
> >
> > I know nothing we see will give us the view of the battlefield as it
> > existed
> > in 1863, I guess I am wondering how different parts of the battlefield
> > that
> > we see today fared in maintaining its original character.
> >
> > I would think ECB, Devil's Den and Culp's Hill are the most pristine as
> > composed to places like LRT, The Angle and Pickett's Fields (for lack
of
> a
> > better description).
> >
> > I hope that makes sense.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
> gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Nancy Householder
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:46 PM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Culps Hill has changed, too. They put monuments on the hill, first,
then
> > after the War Department took over the park in 1895, they put roads in
so
> > people could have access to the lines of battle. They built roads on
> Culps
> > hill, next to the monuments so people could see them. Later, in the
> 1930's
> > they had to redo the roads on Culps Hill so cars could go up the roads.
> > The
> >
> > first roads were much steeper and very windy, and made for horses and
> > carriages. They also moved some monuments when they re-did the roads.
I
> > learned this from LBG Sue Boardman in her class on Culps Hill.
> >
> > Nancy Householder
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com>
> > To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 9:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Out of curiosity: is there any landscape we see today that would be the
> > same
> > as 1863? The First Day we have airports and railroads, etc. The second
> day
> > we have trolley lines, railroads, military establishments, scalping of
> > crests, not to mention roads such as the ones that used to be around
the
> > angle (this is one I don't fault all that much as you need roads for
> > accessibility as you can't expect people to be able to walk entire
> > battlefields as well as visitor centers as the wisdom of when they were
> > built are drastically different than approaches and views today) and
the
> > third day we have the same issues as the second day. Perhaps the
cavalry
> > battlefields of the Gettysburg area are pretty close, but I really
don't
> > know.
> >
> > The only two that seems to not have been touched is Culp's Hill (I know
> > building the road caused disruption but view that as a necessary evil),
> > but
> > we don't get the same vantage points around Culp's Hill as the
soldiers
> > due
> > to all the overgrowth in that part of the battlefield and Devil's Den
> > (what
> > could actually be built in that rocky outcropping) .
> >
> > It seems with the tree clearing, at best we are getting "line of
sights"
> > but
> > not authentic views of how the soldiers saw the battlefield. Would this
> be
> > a
> > fair assessment?
> >
> > It doesn't seem like at Antietam / Shiloh where I believe those
> > battlefields
> > are about the same as during the battle (given, I know building roads
and
> > Visitor Centers cause disruption), but for the most part, those
> > battlefields
> > have changed very little over time (with the exception of said
projects
> to
> > allow visitation to the battlefields and the usual wear of time and
> > erosion).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:
> gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
> > On Behalf Of Nancy Householder
> > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:45 AM
> > To: GDG
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > I was told by LBG Sue Boardman, that the reason the Penn. Monument was
> > built
> > in that location is because there was a railroad stop right there.
> >
> > Railroad tracks went across the field in front of the Union monuments
on
> > Cemetery Ridge, in front of the High Water Mark, and ran way down
> >
> > towards LRT. There was a stop by the end of Hancock ave, and they could
> > bring in all the supplies to build the PA Monument by railroad, and
> >
> > could unload them right there, near where they will build it.
> >
> > Nancy Householder
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
> > To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 2:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: GDG- Camp Colt
> >
> > Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> > Hello.
> > The Pennsylvania monument is built on the site of Father Corby's
> > benediction
> > (the statue was placed at it's present site to sit on the curve where
the
> > electric railroad emerged).
> > There was a 40 foot knoll where the monument is today.
> > The knoll, I was told by a LBG-one of the better ones, was higher than
> the
> > head on Lincoln's statue.
> > A few years ago, we ran into a sculptor oat the Dobbins blobs bar who
had
> > done the statue of the last Pennsylvania general to be erected on
> Cemetery
> > Ridge. (I learned lot about sculpting that evening).
> > When they excavated for he foundation for the statue, there was a NPS
rep
> > there to recover artifacts.
> > As expected, they found none. When the road on Cemetery Ridge was put
in,
> > they scraped it clean and dumped it in local fields.
> > A 15 foot deep ravine once separated, Vincent's Spur from the main body
> of
> > LRT.
> > The rocky ledges of Oates report were obliterated when Chamberlain
Avenue
> > ( a; carriage route now all but gone itself) was put in.
> > Dynamite was used to put in the electric railroad.
> > Nothing is the same.
> > Regards,
> > Jack
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Andy Mills <amills at jplcreative.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> >>I came across this image on the Gettysburg Daily blog....
> >>
> >>http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/EisenhowerTank121511/EisenhowerTank12
> >>151102.jpg
> >>
> >>In looking at it, it looks as though the copse of trees is just out of
> >>sight to the left of the image.
> >>
> >>But looking at this image, it seems most of the hills we see today from
> >>the
> >>same perspective were flattened with little or no regard for the state
of
> >>the battlefield.
> >>
> >>Is this true? And if so, it would seem the hills we see today around
the
> >>High Water Mark are reproductions of ones that might have been there,
not
> >>to mention the stone wall and the "original stone wall covered with
sod"
> >>around the US Regulars Monument.
> >>
> >>It seems this training ground significantly altered the landscape.
> >>
> >>How much impact did Camp Colt have on the ground? Were the tanks then
> >>running (even if it was only three by the summer) on the ground between
> >>West Confederate Avenue and the Emmitsburg road through the area
covered
> >>by
> >>PPG Assault, or did they train more in the Codori - Trostle Thicket
area?
> >>
> >>Out of curiosity: did any of the men driving the tanks / flatbed trucks
> >>lose control and destroy any monuments (even the regimental flank
markers
> >>that are positioned low to the ground)?
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