GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years

CWMHTours at CWMHTours at
Tue Jan 3 14:55:28 CST 2012

Hi Margaret-
I would agree with you except for the OEOB bldg.  I  really like it 
2nd French Empire style.  When it was dedicated in 1888  it had fallen out 
of favor as a design.  The architect, who was immensely  proud of his 
production, was shocked to find that the public HATED the  building.  There were 
condemnations in the newspapers and he received  hatemail.  (You ought to see 
what I get from my  ex-girlfriends.)
In fact, the abuse he got caused him to commit suicide some 2  years 
afterwards.  His name is on Wiki.
During FDR there were considerations to stripping all the  extra design 
stuff off the building and making it a match to the quasi-Geek  Revival style 
of the Treasury bldg.
Thank God for WW II.  Just in the nick of  time.
One of my tourist stories I frequently tell is that for years  I have 
admired that gray bldg and felt it was a shame it wasn't white  marble.  Drove 
past it many years wondrin about that.
Right about 1990 they began painting the top floor of the  building white.  
I was elated!
One day I was down at my favorite saloon, Harrys (Best chili  in DC), 
sitting at the bar and the guy next me was a Secret Service agent.   (Harrys is 
full of FBI, DOJ, and.... IRS)  Told him I was delighted they  were painting 
the bldg white, that I always thought it should be white, and  he said they 
weren't painting it.  Sandblasting.  All that gray is  urban dirt and acid 
Bottom line is that that was some 20 years ago and they still  haven't 
finished the top floor.  I tell the tourists that I figger to be  dead before 
they get it done at this rate.
You are right about Jackie.  One shame is that when they  put in the 
doorways to the new red brick annexes on Laf SQ. they tore down Dan  Sickles' 
house and the Old Clubhouse on the east side where Seward lived and  Philip 
Barton Key died.
I love telling the ghost story about P B Key showing up waving  a 
handkerchief where the Sickles house was.
Slavery- The Decatur House was a slave market, right there on  Lafayette 
Sq.  That gray 2 story section behind it on H St is it.  The  Gadsbys from 
Gadsby's Tavern in Alex owned it in I think,  1830s-1840s.   Last place where 
Judah P. Benjamin lived before going  south.
Let me know next when you are in town.  We'll got to  Harrys for the chili. 
Your  Most Obedient Servant,

In a message dated 1/3/2012 2:27:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mdblough1 at writes:

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
My favorite period is early Federal. If Jackie  Kennedy did nothing else in 
her life, helping to persuade her husband to  preserve the gorgeous 
buildings of Lafayette Square instead of building more  of what I call the Temple 
of Karnak school of architecture would have made it  worthwhile. I really 
hate the buildings of the Rayburn Building era. It  wouldn't be so bad if they 
were ugly. Ugly can be interesting (example: the  EOB next to the White 
House); they're just bland and boring, great gray  puddings of buildings. 



P.S. I went to AU from 1968-1972 

----- Original Message  -----
From: CWMHTours at 
To: gettysburg at 
Sent:  Tuesday, January 3, 2012 2:14:58 PM 
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg  Battlefield thru the years 

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 

G-D it! 

Don't know why the pooter does that w/out me touching  it. 

Anyway..... Jack! 

Some comments on this post: 

1:  If you go down to Federal triangle, Constitution and Penn Ave by 15th 
to  6th that was all built except the Reagan bldg pretty much in the 20s 
30s and if you ask me it sure does look a lot like the fascistic  
architecture of Nazi Germany. Much of it is unattractive if you ask me.  

2: RE: the 30s. The Linkn Mem was started in, I think, 1910-1912. I  
know it was dedicated in 1922. The Jeff Mem. was started, I think, 1937,  
dedicated 1943. 

3. Monuments vs. memorials. They are very  different. A "monument" is 
dedicated to the accomplishments or deeds of a  person. Thus the Washington 
Monument. G W led us in the Am Rev and was our  first president. A 
"memorial" is dedicated to the memory and legacy of the  person themselves 
and their 
character. Thus you have the Jefferson  Memorial and the Linkn Memorial. 
G W's memorial is Arlington House.  

4. The Greco-Roman influence on architecture and statuary predates the  
Civil War by over 4 score. When our Founding Fathers discovered that G W  
didn't want to be our king or emperor they looked around for alternative  
gov't. They came up with Democracy which was modeled on Greece and Rome  
is why you see all them hot babes on the statues in flimsy negligees  all 
around town. 
My point is that the C W had little to do with it.  They almost made 
the Linkn Mem a pyramid. Much of the architectural  decisions in DC were 
made rather capriciously. 

Aren't you glad  that I am home today to help you with your posts? ;-) !!! 

Your Most  Obedient Servant, 

In a message dated 1/3/2012 8:52:31  A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
jlawrence at writes: 

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes: 
Well, Fasces have been around for over a couple of  millennia, when slaves 
would carry them in front of Roman Lictors-to  convey exactly the meaning I 
expressed. Of course, the power of the state  is probably the ultimate 
strength, as it reflects the ultimate source of  that power, the body 

My explanation is correct. Somebody  just decided to PC the explanation. 

BTW: They were also used by a  certain political party in north central 
Europe in the early part of the  last century-they also put an eagle on 
top-and there was no doubt as to  the meaning then. 

You know, a lot of the public architecture in that  era (1930's) was 
as a counter point to the public  architecture in that part of Europe, Like 
the Lincoln Monument, Jefferson  Monument, Eternal Flame at Gettysburg. 

But the stuff from the civil  war was a reflection of the adaptation of the 
classical style in this  country. 

Not to belabor the point, but the Mercury dime was designed  by a German 
immigrant. Strong suggestion of classical interpretation  there. 



----- Original  Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Householder" <pipecreek1430 at>  
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 03,  2012 6:46 AM 
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years 

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
Jack- That is not what  I learned about the faces. They are a symbol of 
strength. That is why they  are on the 

chair that Lincoln sits in on the Lincoln Memorial in DC.  They are also on 
the Lincoln speech memorial in the 
Soldiers National  Cemetery in Gettysburg. They were also on the Mercury 

Nancy  Householder 

From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at> 
To: GDG <gettysburg at>  
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 1:55 PM 
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in  Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years 

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:  

That is a lot of county seats. In Missouri, the statues  trend north north 
the Missouri and southern south of the river.  

I brought up the Armeians actually. 
Never ask a turkish Guide in  an Indiana Jones hat about the Armenian 
I thought to tour  was over, but it was a private tour and my wife and I 
the only  tips for the day. I think his comment about no Armenian monuments 
was a  little dig. 

I did not say lost cause in a derogatory manner. Both  sides grew their own 
versions of the war. 

I should have added  though that there is a subliminal message on the 
on the  Emancipator monument in DC. 

Their are fasces carved on each side.  Fasces are a bundle of rods with an 
in the middle, the Roman symbol  of the power of the state to punish and 
ultimately, to take life  away. They are also carved on either side of the 
Lincoln memorial in the  Cemetery in gettysburg. 

Must have been Sickles idea. 

If you  want symbolism in monuments, thhe Washington Monument on South 
Mountain in  Maryland was built in the shape of a Whiskey jug. 

The next mountain  over is Camp David. 


----- Original Message  ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at> 
To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at> 
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:16 PM  
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years  

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
> Thank you Jack. I  enjoyed your response--except for unfortunate 'lost 
> cause' slip.  Didn't know Sulla also took on the Armenians. 
> One of my  future projects will be to go to every county seat in the 
>  and photograph the Confederate soldier. I'd like to find someone to do 
> Northern ones at the same time. It would cool to put them all on a  
> website. 
> Regards, 
>  George 
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jack Lawrence  <jlawrence at> wrote: 
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes: 
>> There should have been a lot more Confederate period  monuments. 
>> There are several reasons why there are  not. 
>> First, the northern veterans were closer to the  field than the southern 
>> veterans, which made it much more  accessible. 
>> Second, the south was a depressed are after the war  while the north 
>> boomed. The northern veterans prospered and were  able to fund many more 
>> monuments. 
>>  Third, The Union Veterans controlled the parks and set the rules. The  
>> rules were that your monument could be placed at its farthest  point of 
>> advance. The Union veterans had few problems with that  though, of 
>> some monuments like the 
>> 1st  Minnesota located themselves farther to the far to be on the 
>> RR line than there actual position. 
>> The Confederate  veterans made many claims as to their actual positions, 
>> many on  the far side of the Union positions. The Union was not about to 
>>  allow the south to claim positions that inferred that that they had  
>> overrun their positions. 
>> Refused the  locations of their choice, the southern units eschewed any 
>>  monuments. 
>> This last reason is usually the reason  often given, but I have noticed 
>> that at Shiloh, Vicksburg,  Chattanooga and Stones River, Perryville et 
>> all, their are far  more Union monuments than Confederate monuments. 
>> I  think the main reason was that there were that the south lost the war 
>> and the monuments are inferred to be political statements made by  a 
>> conqueror (nor was the south alone. When Ephesus declared its  
>> independence from Rome, Sulla's grandsons sacked the city when  they 
>> it back. On the road in the upper city, there is a  large bas relief of 
>> the two Sulla's on the road into town; a  monument to Rome and the 
>> conqueror's.Ii asked our guide if there  were any Ephesians monuments he 

>> laughed ((there are no  Armenian monuments either))). 
>> So IMHO opinion, there  are few period southern war monuments outside of 
>> county squares  because the south had little interest in decorating 
>> northern  victory parks. 
>> In the late 19th early 20th century  that changed. The next generation 
>> decided that the memory of  those who fought for their various states 
>> worth  supporting and the finest, most wistful, dramatic funerary 
>> in the country was erected along West Confederate Avenue. But  these 
>> not erected by those who fought. They were built  by lost causers to 
>> memorialize the southern cause at it had  evolved in the intervening 
>> generation. 
>>  (In fairness, they were not alone. The memorial at the Lincoln Monument 
>> was erected by those whom had served under Lincoln the war  leader, the 
>> Commander in Chief. It is full of the desperate,  violent fury that 
>> determined to save the union felt. It  is, again IMHO, more violent and 
>> determined than the Grant  Monument at the base of the Capitol. 
>> 70 miles away  in DC, those who had been raised on Lincoln the 
>>  built the Lincoln monument, in which the war is dedicated to that 
>>  emancipation. 
>> Each side after the war evolved it's  own myth of what that war was all 
>> about. (of course, their  progeny all stormed the beaches together at 
>> Normandy and Iwo  Jima.) 
>> That concept evolves today. At Vicksburg,  there is a Kansas Monument, 
>> erected during the 1960's centennial  period. It is dedicated to Kansas 
>> soldiers who served there (as  far as I can tell their contribution to 
>> war was to try  and dig Grant's canal.) 
>> The Maryland monument is in  the parking lot of the old VC, because that 
>> particular park super  decided that all future monuments were to go in 
>> that parking  lot). 
>> And now we have a regimental statue erected  solely because some group 
>> reenactors persuaded Trent Lott  to use his pull and let them erect a 
>> monument. Now who does that  honor? The 11th Miss or 11th miss 
>> renenactors? 
>> Monuments are proposed by some all the time at Gettysburg; one  park 
>> historian once said (I think sarcastically) that they should  just 
>> the field over and paint all their names on  them. 
>> So, I agree that it would be nice if there  were more southern 
>> But the few they have are the  best of the lot (except I have never, 
>> figured out that  soldiers and sailors thing). 
>> Regards, 
>> Jack 
>> ----- Original  Message ----- From: "George Connell" 
>> <georgeconnell at>  
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at> 
>> Sent:  Monday, January 02, 2012 10:38 AM 
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in  Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years 
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
>>> Should be a  lot more Rebel monuments on the battlefield. To paraphrase 
>>>  Pickett, I think the Confederates had something to do with it.  
>>> Regards, 
>>>  George 
>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at> 
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
>>>>  Trent Lott's 11 Mississippi. 
>>>> Regads,  
>>>> Jack 
>>>> -----  Original Message ----- From: "Peter Skillman" 
>>>>  <pskillman at> 
>>>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at> 
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 02,  2012 9:43 AM 
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg  Battlefield thru the years 
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:  
>>>>> Jack, 
>>>>> I'm unfamiliar. To which "Mississippi thing" are you  referring? 
>>>>> - Pete S.  
>>>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 10:38 AM,  Jack Lawrence wrote: 
>>>>>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes: 
>>>>>> I lked the view  from the National tower. I did not like the 
>>>>>>  waypoliticians allegedl manipulated the NPS and had their own guy  
>>>>>> installed as Superintendant so that they could  get the tower put 
>>>>>> Nor do I like the way that  they decitfully manipulated the deal so 
>>>>>> that the  promised NPDS share of tower was limited to the part that  
>>>>>> lost money. 
>>>>>> But what I really find repugnant is the way they  payed loud music 
>>>>>> during funerals at the National  Cemetary. 
>>>>>>  Politicians aways have their way with the park, look at the  
>>>>>> Mississippi thing. 
>>>>>> Regards, 
>>>>>> Jack 
>>>>>> ----- Original  Message ----- From: "Peter Skillman" 
>>>>>>  <pskillman at> 
>>>>>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at> 
>>>>>> Sent: Monday,  January 02, 2012 7:52 AM 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG-  Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years 
>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG  Member Contributes: 
>>>>>>> There was also an  observation tower on Big Round Top - the 
>>>>>>>  foundations for it are still there, if I recall correctly.  
>>>>>>> Not to  mention the lovely "National Tower"! Everyone LOVED that 
>>>>>>> - Pete  
>>>>>>> On Dec 30,  2011, at 4:19 PM, Nancy Householder wrote: 
>>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:  
>>>>>>>> Here is a short list of some of the  changes made to the 
>>>>>>>> thru  the years: 
>>>>>>>> At one time there were 5 observation  towers. Beside the current 
>>>>>>>> ones on Oak  Ridge, Culps Hill, and 
>>>>>>>> West Confederate Ave, there was also one  on East Cemetery Hill, 
>>>>>>>> on  Cemetery Ridge, near where 
>>>>>>>> the Cyclorama  building is still today. 
>>>>>>>>  There was a trolley that ran thru the fields and out to LRT.  
>>>>>>>> Out at LRT there was a sort of amusement  park with a carosel, and 
>>>>>>>> picnic pavilion  and refreashment stand. 
>>>>>>>> There was a  railroad that ran through the park, too. 
>>>>>>>> The fence around the Soldier's National  Cemetery, that came from 
>>>>>>>> Layfayette Park,  in DC, across from the 
>>>>>>>> White House, was first put up in  Gettysburg on East Cemetery 
>>>>>>>> On the field of PPT charge, besides Camp  Colt, was a Civilian 
>>>>>>>> Conservation Corps  camp in the 1930's and 
>>>>>>>> then was turned  into a POW camp for German POW's during WWII.  
>>>>>>>>  There was a Stuckey's Pecan Shoppe and Souvenir Stand, and gas  
>>>>>>>> station at the intersection of the  Emittsburg Rd 
>>>>>>>> and the Millerstown Rd.  
>>>>>>>> How  about the Peace Light Inn and tourist court out on the field 
>>>>>>>> front of the Peace Light Memorial?  
>>>>>>>> I've  also seen pictures of a Refreashment Stand and Souvenir 
>>>>>>>> on Oak Ridge.  
>>>>>>>>  Anyone remember a place called Fantasyland in the 1960's? I'm not 

>>>>>>>> sure where it was located, but I do  remember going there 
>>>>>>>> as a child.  
>>>>>>>>  Nancy Householder 
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