GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years

CWMHTours at CWMHTours at
Tue Jan 3 13:14:58 CST 2012

G-D it!
Don't know why the pooter does that w/out me touching  it.
Anyway.....  Jack!
Some comments on this post:
1:  If you go down to Federal triangle, Constitution and  Penn Ave by 15th 
to 6th that was all built except the Reagan bldg pretty much in  the 20s and 
30s and if you ask me it sure does look a lot like the fascistic  
architecture of Nazi Germany.  Much of it is unattractive if you ask  me. 
2:  RE: the 30s.  The Linkn Mem was started in, I  think, 1910-1912.  I 
know it was dedicated in 1922.  The Jeff Mem. was  started, I think, 1937, and 
dedicated 1943.
3.  Monuments vs. memorials.  They are very  different.  A "monument" is 
dedicated to the accomplishments or deeds  of a person.  Thus the Washington 
Monument.  G W led us in the Am Rev  and was our first president.  A 
"memorial" is dedicated to the memory and  legacy of the person themselves and their 
character.  Thus you have the  Jefferson Memorial and the Linkn Memorial.  
G W's  memorial is Arlington House.
4.  The Greco-Roman influence on architecture and  statuary predates the 
Civil War by over 4 score.  When our Founding Fathers  discovered that G W 
didn't want to be our king or emperor they looked around for  alternative 
gov't.  They came up with Democracy which was modeled on Greece  and Rome which 
is why you see all them hot babes on the statues in flimsy  negligees all 
around town.
    My point is that the C W had little to  do with it.  They almost made 
the Linkn Mem a pyramid.  Much of the  architectural decisions in DC were 
made rather capriciously.
Aren't you glad that I am home today to help you with your  posts?  ;-)  !!!
Your  Most Obedient Servant,

In a message dated 1/3/2012 8:52:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jlawrence at writes:

Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
Well, Fasces have been around for over a couple of  millennia, when slaves 
would carry them in front of Roman Lictors-to  convey exactly the meaning I 
expressed. Of course, the power of the state  is probably the ultimate 
strength, as it reflects the ultimate source of  that power, the body 

My explanation is correct. Somebody  just decided to PC the explanation.

BTW: They were also used by a  certain political party in north central 
Europe in the early part of the  last century-they also put an eagle on 
top-and there was no doubt as to  the meaning then.

You know, a lot of the public architecture in that  era (1930's) was 
as a counter point to the public architecture in  that part of Europe, Like 
the Lincoln Monument, Jefferson Monument,  Eternal Flame at Gettysburg.

But the stuff from the civil war was a  reflection of the adaptation of the 
classical style in this  country.

Not to belabor the point, but the Mercury dime was designed  by  a German 
immigrant. Strong suggestion of classical interpretation  there.



----- Original Message  ----- 
From: "Nancy Householder" <pipecreek1430 at>
To:  "GDG" <gettysburg at>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:46  AM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack- That is not what I  learned about the faces. They are a symbol of 
strength. That is why they  are on the

chair that Lincoln sits in on the Lincoln Memorial in DC.  They are also on 
the Lincoln speech memorial in the
Soldiers National  Cemetery in Gettysburg. They were also on the Mercury 

Nancy  Householder

From: Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at>
To: GDG  <gettysburg at>
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 1:55  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:

That is a lot of  county seats. In Missouri, the statues trend north north 
the Missouri  and southern south of the river.

I brought up the Armeians  actually.
Never ask a turkish Guide in an Indiana Jones hat about the  Armenian 
I thought to tour was over, but it was a private  tour and my wife and I 
the only tips for the day. I think his comment  about no Armenian monuments 
was a little dig.

I did not say lost  cause in a derogatory manner. Both sides grew their own 
versions of the  war.

I should have added though that there is a subliminal message on  the 
on the Emancipator monument in DC.

Their are fasces  carved on each side. Fasces are a bundle of rods with an 
in the middle,  the Roman symbol of the power of the state to punish and 
ultimately,  to take life away. They are also carved on either side of the 
Lincoln  memorial in the Cemetery in gettysburg.

Must have been Sickles  idea.

If you want symbolism in monuments, thhe Washington Monument on  South 
Mountain in Maryland was built in the shape of a Whiskey  jug.

The next mountain over is Camp  David.


----- Original Message ----- From:  "George Connell" <georgeconnell at>
To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:16  PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years

> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Thank you Jack.  I enjoyed your response--except for unfortunate 'lost 
> cause' slip.  Didn't know Sulla also took on the Armenians.
> One of my future  projects will be to go to every county seat in the 
> and  photograph the Confederate soldier. I'd like to find someone to do 
> Northern ones at the same time. It would cool to put them all on a  
> website.
> Regards,
>  George
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jack Lawrence  <jlawrence at> wrote:
>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>> There should have been a lot more Confederate period  monuments.
>> There are several reasons why there are  not.
>> First, the northern veterans were closer to the  field than the southern 
>> veterans, which made it much more  accessible.
>> Second, the south was a depressed are after the war  while the north 
>> boomed. The northern veterans prospered and were  able to fund many more 
>> monuments.
>> Third,  The Union Veterans controlled the parks and set the rules. The 
>>  rules were that your monument could be placed at its farthest point of  
>> advance. The Union veterans had few problems with that though, of  
>> some monuments like the
>> 1st Minnesota located  themselves farther to the far to be on the 
>> RR line than  there actual position.
>> The Confederate veterans made many claims  as to their actual positions, 
>> many on the far side of the Union  positions. The Union was not about to 
>> allow the south to claim  positions that inferred that that they had 
>> overrun their  positions.
>> Refused the locations of their choice, the  southern units eschewed any 
>> monuments.
>>  This last reason is usually the reason often given, but I have noticed  
>> that at Shiloh, Vicksburg, Chattanooga and Stones River,  Perryville et 
>> all, their are far more Union monuments than  Confederate monuments.
>> I think the main reason was  that there were that the south lost the war 
>> and the monuments are  inferred to be political statements made by a 
>> conqueror (nor was  the south alone. When Ephesus declared its 
>> independence from  Rome, Sulla's grandsons sacked the city when they 
>> it back.  On the road in the upper city, there is a large bas relief of 
>> the  two Sulla's on the road into town; a monument to Rome and the 
>>  conqueror's.Ii asked our guide if there were any Ephesians monuments he 
>> laughed ((there are no Armenian monuments  either))).
>> So IMHO opinion, there are few period  southern war monuments outside of 
>> county squares because the  south had little interest in decorating 
>> northern victory  parks.
>> In the late 19th early 20th century that  changed. The next generation 
>> decided that the memory of those who  fought for their various states 
>> worth supporting and the  finest, most wistful, dramatic funerary 
>> in the country  was erected along West Confederate Avenue. But these 
>> not  erected by those who fought. They were built by lost causers to 
>>  memorialize the southern cause at it had evolved in the intervening  
>> generation.
>> (In fairness, they were not  alone. The memorial at the Lincoln Monument 
>> was erected by those  whom had served under Lincoln the war leader, the 
>> Commander in  Chief. It is full of the desperate, violent fury that 
>>  determined to save the union felt. It is, again IMHO, more violent and  
>> determined than the Grant Monument at the base of the  Capitol.
>> 70 miles away in DC, those who had been  raised on Lincoln the 
>> built the Lincoln monument, in  which the war is dedicated to that 
>>  emancipation.
>> Each side after the war evolved it's own  myth of what that war was all 
>> about. (of course, their progeny  all stormed the beaches together at 
>> Normandy and Iwo  Jima.)
>> That concept evolves today. At Vicksburg, there  is a Kansas Monument, 
>> erected during the 1960's centennial  period. It is dedicated to Kansas 
>> soldiers who served there (as  far as I can tell their contribution to 
>> war was to try and  dig Grant's canal.)
>> The Maryland monument is in the  parking lot of the old VC, because that 
>> particular park super  decided that all future monuments were to go in 
>> that parking  lot).
>> And now we have a regimental statue erected  solely because some group 
>> reenactors persuaded Trent Lott to  use his pull and let them erect a 
>> monument. Now who does that  honor? The 11th Miss or 11th miss 
>>  renenactors?
>> Monuments are proposed by some all the  time at Gettysburg; one park 
>> historian once said (I think  sarcastically) that they should just 
>> the field over and  paint all their names on them.
>> So, I agree that it  would be nice if there were more southern 
>> But the few  they have are the best of the lot (except I have never, 
>>  figured out that soldiers and sailors thing).
>>  Regards,
>> Jack
>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" 
>>  <georgeconnell at>
>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at>
>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:38  AM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years
>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>> Should be a lot more Rebel monuments on the  battlefield. To paraphrase 
>>> Pickett, I think the Confederates  had something to do with it.
>>>  Regards,
>>>  George
>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Jack  Lawrence <jlawrence at>  
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member  Contributes:
>>>> Trent Lott's 11  Mississippi.
>>>>  Regads,
>>>> Jack
>>>> -----  Original Message ----- From: "Peter Skillman" 
>>>>  <pskillman at>
>>>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 02,  2012 9:43 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg  Battlefield thru the  years
>>>>> Esteemed  GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>  Jack,
>>>>> I'm unfamiliar. To which  "Mississippi thing" are you  referring?
>>>>> - Pete  S.
>>>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 10:38  AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> I lked the view  from the National tower. I did not like the 
>>>>>>  waypoliticians allegedl manipulated the NPS and had their own guy  
>>>>>> installed as Superintendant so that they could  get the tower put in.
>>>>>> Nor do I like the way that  they decitfully manipulated the deal so 
>>>>>> that the  promised NPDS share of tower was limited to the part that  
>>>>>> lost  money.
>>>>>> But what I  really find repugnant is the way they payed loud music  
>>>>>> during funerals at the National  Cemetary.
>>>>>> Politicians  aways have their way with the park, look at the 
>>>>>>  Mississippi thing.
>>>>>>  Regards,
>>>>>>  Jack
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter  Skillman" 
>>>>>>  <pskillman at>
>>>>>> To: "GDG"  <gettysburg at>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday,  January 02, 2012 7:52 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes  in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the  years
>>>>>>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> There was  also an observation tower on Big Round Top - the  
>>>>>>> foundations for it are still there, if I  recall  correctly.
>>>>>>> Not  to mention the lovely "National Tower"! Everyone LOVED that  
>>>>>>> -  Pete
>>>>>>> On Dec  30, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Nancy Householder  wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>>> Here is a  short list of some of the changes made to the 
>>>>>>>> thru the  years:
>>>>>>>>  At one time there were 5 observation towers. Beside the current  
>>>>>>>> ones on Oak Ridge, Culps Hill,  and
>>>>>>>>  West Confederate Ave, there was also one on East Cemetery Hill, 
>>>>>>>> on Cemetery Ridge, near  where
>>>>>>>> the Cyclorama building is still  today.
>>>>>>>>  There was a trolley that ran thru the fields and out to  LRT.
>>>>>>>> Out at LRT there was a sort of  amusement park with a carosel, and 
>>>>>>>> picnic  pavilion and refreashment stand.
>>>>>>>> There was  a railroad that ran through the park,  too.
>>>>>>>>  The fence around the Soldier's National Cemetery, that came from  
>>>>>>>> Layfayette Park, in DC, across from  the
>>>>>>>>  White House, was first put up in Gettysburg on East Cemetery  
>>>>>>>>  On the field of PPT charge, besides Camp Colt, was a Civilian  
>>>>>>>> Conservation Corps camp in the 1930's  and
>>>>>>>> then was turned into a POW camp for  German POW's during  WWII.
>>>>>>>>  There was a Stuckey's Pecan Shoppe and Souvenir Stand, and gas  
>>>>>>>> station at the intersection of the  Emittsburg Rd
>>>>>>>> and the Millerstown  Rd.
>>>>>>>>  How about the Peace Light Inn and tourist court out on the field 
>>>>>>>> front of the Peace Light  Memorial?
>>>>>>>>  I've also seen pictures of a Refreashment Stand and Souvenir 
>>>>>>>> on Oak  Ridge.
>>>>>>>>  Anyone remember a place called Fantasyland in the 1960's? I'm not 
>>>>>>>> sure where it was located, but I do  remember going  there
>>>>>>>>  as a  child.
>>>>>>>>  Nancy Householder
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