GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years

Jack Lawrence jlawrence at kc.rr.com
Tue Jan 3 07:51:54 CST 2012


Well, Fasces have been around for over a couple of millennia, when slaves 
would carry them in front of Roman Lictors-to convey exactly the meaning I 
expressed. Of course, the power of the state is probably the ultimate 
strength, as it reflects the ultimate source of that power, the body 
politic.

My explanation is correct. Somebody just decided to PC the explanation.

BTW: They were also used by a certain political party in north central 
Europe in the early part of the last century-they also put an eagle on 
top-and there was no doubt as to the meaning then.

You know, a lot of the public architecture in that era (1930's) was designed 
as a counter point to the public architecture in that part of Europe, Like 
the Lincoln Monument, Jefferson Monument, Eternal Flame at Gettysburg.

But the stuff from the civil war was a reflection of the adaptation of the 
classical style in this country.

Not to belabor the point, but the Mercury dime was designed by  a German 
immigrant. Strong suggestion of classical interpretation there.



Regards,

Jack


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Householder" <pipecreek1430 at yahoo.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years


Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Jack- That is not what I learned about the faces. They are a symbol of 
strength. That is why they are on the

chair that Lincoln sits in on the Lincoln Memorial in DC. They are also on 
the Lincoln speech memorial in the
Soldiers National Cemetery in Gettysburg. They were also on the Mercury 
Dime.

Nancy Householder



________________________________
 From: Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com>
To: GDG <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years

Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
Well,

That is a lot of county seats. In Missouri, the statues trend north north of 
the Missouri and southern south of the river.

I brought up the Armeians actually.
Never ask a turkish Guide in an Indiana Jones hat about the Armenian 
genocide.
I thought to tour was over, but it was a private tour and my wife and I were 
the only tips for the day. I think his comment about no Armenian monuments 
was a little dig.

I did not say lost cause in a derogatory manner. Both sides grew their own 
versions of the war.

I should have added though that there is a subliminal message on the stairs 
on the Emancipator monument in DC.

Their are fasces carved on each side. Fasces are a bundle of rods with an ax 
in the middle, the Roman symbol of the power of the state to punish and the 
ultimately, to take life away. They are also carved on either side of the 
Lincoln memorial in the Cemetery in gettysburg.

Must have been Sickles idea.

If you want symbolism in monuments, thhe Washington Monument on South 
Mountain in Maryland was built in the shape of a Whiskey jug.

The next mountain over is Camp David.

Regards,

Jack
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" <georgeconnell at me.com>
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years


> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
> Thank you Jack. I enjoyed your response--except for unfortunate 'lost 
> cause' slip. Didn't know Sulla also took on the Armenians.
>
> One of my future projects will be to go to every county seat in the South 
> and photograph the Confederate soldier. I'd like to find someone to do the 
> Northern ones at the same time. It would cool to put them all on a single 
> website.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
>
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>> There should have been a lot more Confederate period monuments.
>>
>> There are several reasons why there are not.
>>
>> First, the northern veterans were closer to the field than the southern 
>> veterans, which made it much more accessible.
>> Second, the south was a depressed are after the war while the north 
>> boomed. The northern veterans prospered and were able to fund many more 
>> monuments.
>>
>> Third, The Union Veterans controlled the parks and set the rules. The 
>> rules were that your monument could be placed at its farthest point of 
>> advance. The Union veterans had few problems with that though, of course, 
>> some monuments like the
>> 1st Minnesota located themselves farther to the far to be on the electric 
>> RR line than there actual position.
>> The Confederate veterans made many claims as to their actual positions, 
>> many on the far side of the Union positions. The Union was not about to 
>> allow the south to claim positions that inferred that that they had 
>> overrun their positions.
>>
>> Refused the locations of their choice, the southern units eschewed any 
>> monuments.
>>
>> This last reason is usually the reason often given, but I have noticed 
>> that at Shiloh, Vicksburg, Chattanooga and Stones River, Perryville et 
>> all, their are far more Union monuments than Confederate monuments.
>>
>> I think the main reason was that there were that the south lost the war 
>> and the monuments are inferred to be political statements made by a 
>> conqueror (nor was the south alone. When Ephesus declared its 
>> independence from Rome, Sulla's grandsons sacked the city when they took 
>> it back. On the road in the upper city, there is a large bas relief of 
>> the two Sulla's on the road into town; a monument to Rome and the 
>> conqueror's.Ii asked our guide if there were any Ephesians monuments he 
>> laughed ((there are no Armenian monuments either))).
>>
>> So IMHO opinion, there are few period southern war monuments outside of 
>> county squares because the south had little interest in decorating 
>> northern victory parks.
>>
>> In the late 19th early 20th century that changed. The next generation 
>> decided that the memory of those who fought for their various states was 
>> worth supporting and the finest, most wistful, dramatic funerary statuary 
>> in the country was erected along West Confederate Avenue. But these were 
>> not erected by those who fought. They were built by lost causers to 
>> memorialize the southern cause at it had evolved in the intervening 
>> generation.
>>
>> (In fairness, they were not alone. The memorial at the Lincoln Monument 
>> was erected by those whom had served under Lincoln the war leader, the 
>> Commander in Chief. It is full of the desperate, violent fury that those 
>> determined to save the union felt. It is, again IMHO, more violent and 
>> determined than the Grant Monument at the base of the Capitol.
>>
>> 70 miles away in DC, those who had been raised on Lincoln the Emancipator 
>> built the Lincoln monument, in which the war is dedicated to that 
>> emancipation.
>>
>> Each side after the war evolved it's own myth of what that war was all 
>> about. (of course, their progeny all stormed the beaches together at 
>> Normandy and Iwo Jima.)
>>
>> That concept evolves today. At Vicksburg, there is a Kansas Monument, 
>> erected during the 1960's centennial period. It is dedicated to Kansas 
>> soldiers who served there (as far as I can tell their contribution to the 
>> war was to try and dig Grant's canal.)
>>
>> The Maryland monument is in the parking lot of the old VC, because that 
>> particular park super decided that all future monuments were to go in 
>> that parking lot).
>>
>> And now we have a regimental statue erected solely because some group of 
>> reenactors persuaded Trent Lott to use his pull and let them erect a 
>> monument. Now who does that honor? The 11th Miss or 11th miss 
>> renenactors?
>>
>> Monuments are proposed by some all the time at Gettysburg; one park 
>> historian once said (I think sarcastically) that they should just asphalt 
>> the field over and paint all their names on them.
>>
>> So, I agree that it would be nice if there were more southern monuments. 
>> But the few they have are the best of the lot (except I have never, ever 
>> figured out that soldiers and sailors thing).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Connell" 
>> <georgeconnell at me.com>
>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years
>>
>>
>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>> Should be a lot more Rebel monuments on the battlefield. To paraphrase 
>>> Pickett, I think the Confederates had something to do with it.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Jack Lawrence <jlawrence at kc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>> Trent Lott's 11 Mississippi.
>>>>
>>>> Regads,
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Skillman" 
>>>> <pskillman at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:43 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>> Jack,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm unfamiliar. To which "Mississippi thing" are you referring?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Pete S.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 10:38 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>> I lked the view from the National tower. I did not like the 
>>>>>> waypoliticians allegedl manipulated the NPS and had their own guy 
>>>>>> installed as Superintendant so that they could get the tower put in.
>>>>>> Nor do I like the way that they decitfully manipulated the deal so 
>>>>>> that the promised NPDS share of tower was limited to the part that 
>>>>>> lost money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But what I really find repugnant is the way they payed loud music 
>>>>>> during funerals at the National Cemetary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Politicians aways have their way with the park, look at the 
>>>>>> Mississippi thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jack
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Skillman" 
>>>>>> <pskillman at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 7:52 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: GDG- Changes in Gettyburg Battlefield thru the years
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>> There was also an observation tower on Big Round Top - the 
>>>>>>> foundations for it are still there, if I recall correctly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to mention the lovely "National Tower"! Everyone LOVED that one!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Pete
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 30, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Nancy Householder wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>>>>>>>> Here is a short list of some of the changes made to the battlefield 
>>>>>>>> thru the years:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At one time there were 5 observation towers. Beside the current 
>>>>>>>> ones on Oak Ridge, Culps Hill, and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> West Confederate Ave, there was also one on East Cemetery Hill, and 
>>>>>>>> on Cemetery Ridge, near where
>>>>>>>> the Cyclorama building is still today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a trolley that ran thru the fields and out to LRT.
>>>>>>>> Out at LRT there was a sort of amusement park with a carosel, and 
>>>>>>>> picnic pavilion and refreashment stand.
>>>>>>>> There was a railroad that ran through the park, too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fence around the Soldier's National Cemetery, that came from 
>>>>>>>> Layfayette Park, in DC, across from the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> White House, was first put up in Gettysburg on East Cemetery Hill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the field of PPT charge, besides Camp Colt, was a Civilian 
>>>>>>>> Conservation Corps camp in the 1930's and
>>>>>>>> then was turned into a POW camp for German POW's during WWII.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a Stuckey's Pecan Shoppe and Souvenir Stand, and gas 
>>>>>>>> station at the intersection of the Emittsburg Rd
>>>>>>>> and the Millerstown Rd.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about the Peace Light Inn and tourist court out on the field in 
>>>>>>>> front of the Peace Light Memorial?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've also seen pictures of a Refreashment Stand and Souvenir shoppe 
>>>>>>>> on Oak Ridge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone remember a place called Fantasyland in the 1960's? I'm not 
>>>>>>>> sure where it was located, but I do remember going there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as a child.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nancy Householder
>>>>>>>> ----------------http://www.arthes.com/mailman/listinfo/gettysburg_arthes.com 
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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